# Anthrax letters -- Are you kidding me? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 1, 2008, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anthrax-letters-are-you-kidding-me/458532 "2008-08-01T19:57:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2008, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anthrax-letters-are-you-kidding-me/458532/61 "2008-08-04T16:42:09Z")
From [The New Republic](http://blogs.tnr.com/tnr/blogs/the_plank/archive/2008/08/03/more-on-anthrax-and-iraq.aspx): > [@](#): > > On the eve of the U.S. invasion of Iraq–I think it was a month or two before–I attended a two-day CIA conference in Wilmington that brought together CIA officials, foreign policy experts and journalists. On the morning of the second day, one of the policy experts pulled me aside and told me that the night before over drinks, some CIA people had told him that they believed Iraq was behind the anthrax attacks. He was taken aback, and so was I, because we presumed they had access to information that might demonstrate this. I don’t who they were; I also don’t believe that the CIA itself was officially engaged in spreading rumors of this kind–most of CIA officialdom was very skeptical of the invasion–but I think it is possible that there was a network people who were promoting a theory about anthrax that helped make the case for war. They may have been unwittingly spreading mis-information that emanated from the perpetrator. Or they may have been winging it irresponsibly. It’s not clear, but I join those who believe that some kind of congressional investigation is in order. There are too many echoes of Niger and uranium. Maybe we should ask [John McCain](http://thinkprogress.org/2008/08/01/mccain-anthrax-iraq/) what he meant tying Iraq to the anthrax scare that year. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2008, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anthrax-letters-are-you-kidding-me/458532/62 "2008-08-04T17:59:28Z")
I saw a program today saying evidence is circumstantial and an indictment was iffy. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2008, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anthrax-letters-are-you-kidding-me/458532/63 "2008-08-04T18:15:52Z")
[QUOTE=Czarcasm] It seems to me that “I don’t believe in conspiracy theories” is the semantic equivalent to “I don’t believe in _your_ conspiracy theories.” [/QUOTE] Yeah, that is about the long and short of it. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2008, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anthrax-letters-are-you-kidding-me/458532/64 "2008-08-04T18:17:01Z")
[QUOTE=jayjay] Well, obviously…those _other_ conspiracy theories are crazy. 😃 Okay, I admit that the term “conspiracy theory” has become a catchall way to dismiss anything we don’t like to hear. But c’mon! There’s a qualitative difference between the whole Bush Administration caused 9/11 theory and the idea that the Bush Administration wanted to attack Iraq and used the tragedy of 9/11 as an opportunity to get that done. [/QUOTE] Absolutely. One of those conspiracy theories I believe, and the other I don’t. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Club\_33](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/df705f/32.png) [@Club\_33](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Club_33)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2008, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anthrax-letters-are-you-kidding-me/458532/65 "2008-08-04T18:43:14Z")
Glen Greenwald has plenty of [interesting things](http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2008/08/01/anthrax/index.html) to say about this whole thing over at Salon. I don’t think I’ve ever bought into a conspiracy theory in my life, but this just isn’t adding up. The therapist, who is the primary source of most of the assertions made against Ivins, has a very questionable background when it comes to her involvement with the legal system in the past. Tom Dashle says he has no confidence that they had the right guy. Then there are statements such as these from his co-workers - > [@](#): > > “The labs were not equipped, for instance, with a lot of the equipment that would have been required to supposedly dry this material down and create the highly refined state that it was in,” said Adamovicz, who worked with Ivins for 12 years. > > Adamovicz also said Ivins showed no signs of being homicidal or suicidal, including when he saw him just three weeks ago." And another question arises, how come Ivins top secret security clearance was never pulled when he became a suspect? I swear, the questions just keep piling up. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2008, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anthrax-letters-are-you-kidding-me/458532/66 "2008-08-04T18:58:08Z")
[QUOTE=Club 33] I swear, the questions just keep piling up. [/QUOTE] As I mentioned [over in GQ](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=460825) , the DNA data upon which this new suspicion hinges, should have come out in 2002, or 2003 at the latest. I’d like, at the very least, some sort of plausible explanation as to why the Feds sat on that evidence for five to six years before suddenly springing into action. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2008, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anthrax-letters-are-you-kidding-me/458532/67 "2008-08-04T19:53:14Z")
While we’re about it, I’d like to know why they calmly advise this nutcase’s attorney that they might be stopping by for a chat and an arrest on a capital murder charge. Is this the standard protocol for dealing wth the batshit insane? ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2008, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anthrax-letters-are-you-kidding-me/458532/68 "2008-08-04T20:29:31Z")
I wish I had the slightest hope that the historical record will ever show anything but that this guy did it and killed himself. ---
**Author:** ![CaveMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cavemike/32/16379_2.png) [@CaveMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaveMike)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2008, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anthrax-letters-are-you-kidding-me/458532/69 "2008-08-04T20:54:58Z")
One question I asked in another thread: The letters were handwritten. Can’t the handwriting provide some evidence? Or is it too easy to fake? [QUOTE=elucidator] While we’re about it, I’d like to know why they calmly advise this nutcase’s attorney that they might be stopping by for a chat and an arrest on a capital murder charge. Is this the standard protocol for dealing wth the batshit insane? [/QUOTE] Well it is standard protocol for fictional detectives, but it doesn’t seem like it should be the procedure for the FBI. Did they think they would scare him into revealing some evidence? Perhaps they thought he would get violent instead of self-destructive. [QUOTE=Squink] As I mentioned [over in GQ](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=460825) , the DNA data upon which this new suspicion hinges, should have come out in 2002, or 2003 at the latest. I’d like, at the very least, some sort of plausible explanation as to why the Feds sat on that evidence for five to six years before suddenly springing into action. [/QUOTE] I’m not sure I follow. The story you link to says that the DNA process took years to develop. Are you saying that shouldn’t have taken that long? Or something else? > [@gonzomax](#): > > They recently gave Hatfill about 3 million dollars $5.8 million. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2008, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anthrax-letters-are-you-kidding-me/458532/70 "2008-08-04T21:14:00Z")
[QUOTE=CaveMike] I’m not sure I follow. The story you link to says that the DNA process took years to develop. Are you saying that shouldn’t have taken that long? [/QUOTE] Yes, that’s what I was saying. A story linking the DNA to the Army lab showed up in New Scientist way back in 2003, then years of silence. Matching sequences between strains is no longer the rocket science it appeared to be back in 1983. If the work actually did take years, it’s because they were not trying very hard. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2008, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anthrax-letters-are-you-kidding-me/458532/71 "2008-08-04T21:24:16Z")
I don’t see a proposed debate by the op. What is being debated? ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2008, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anthrax-letters-are-you-kidding-me/458532/72 "2008-08-04T21:44:38Z")
[FBI was told to blame Anthrax scare on Al Qaeda by White House officials](http://www.nydailynews.com/news/us_world/2008/08/02/2008-08-02_fbi_was_told_to_blame_anthrax_scare_on_a.html) > [@](#): > > In the immediate aftermath of the 2001 anthrax attacks, White House officials repeatedly pressed FBI Director Robert Mueller to prove it was a second-wave assault by Al Qaeda, but investigators ruled that out, the Daily News has learned. > > After the Oct. 5, 2001, death from anthrax exposure of Sun photo editor Robert Stevens, Mueller was “beaten up” during President Bush’s morning intelligence briefings for not producing proof the killer spores were the handiwork of terrorist mastermind Osama Bin Laden, according to a former aide. > … > But by then the FBI already knew anthrax spilling out of letters addressed to media outlets and to a U.S. senator was a military strain of the bioweapon… Do documents get shredded when a case is closed? ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2008, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anthrax-letters-are-you-kidding-me/458532/73 "2008-08-04T22:17:54Z")
[QUOTE=Squink] [FBI was told to blame Anthrax scare on Al Qaeda by White House officials](http://www.nydailynews.com/news/us_world/2008/08/02/2008-08-02_fbi_was_told_to_blame_anthrax_scare_on_a.html) Do documents get shredded when a case is closed? [/QUOTE] _These_ will. :mad: ---
**Author:** ![Greg\_Charles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/839c29/32.png) [@Greg\_Charles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Greg_Charles)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2008, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anthrax-letters-are-you-kidding-me/458532/74 "2008-08-05T06:20:42Z")
I read the linked piece over at Salon. There are a number of uncomfortable possibilities raised by these events, from did the FBI goad Ivins into suicide to get closure to a bungled case all the way to did the administration know the attacks were imminent before they happened. There is a lack of hard evidence for most of it. The one thing that is crystal clear though is that ABC News reported that the anthrax contained traces of bentonite that connected it to Iraq, first claiming three, then four, well-placed sources. They need to reveal these sources now. The laws protecting anonymous sources, which must remain inviolate, do not and should not protect sources that knowingly spread disinformation. We don’t know if ABC made up these sources, if they were all concoctions of Ivins, or point to co-collaborators at the lab, or if they were administration sources. ABC absolutely needs to come clean on this issue. For that matter, John McCain needs to explain what he was referencing when he talked to Letterman. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2008, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anthrax-letters-are-you-kidding-me/458532/75 "2008-08-05T07:28:29Z")
I’m guessing here, but I’m guessing it was a Washington urban legend. Somebody said something to somebody, somebody who knew just enough to be wrong, and then word “bentonite” is all over the place, who knew from bentonite?, sounds like a mineral named after an English butler. Its got the earmarks: its got a vaguely scientific, gee-whiz nugget of non-fact, dropped with a plop into a nutritious soup of preconceptions. So I’m betting John McCain heard it from a reliable source. Who heard it from a highly-placed source, advised on the QT by someone who’s brother-in-law’s therapists hairdresser… Next thing you know, everybody knows that Iraq was behind those anthrax attacks, only Iraq’s got electorlytes…bentonite. Only Iraq’s got bentonite (whatever the _fuck_ that is…) ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2008, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anthrax-letters-are-you-kidding-me/458532/76 "2008-08-05T10:41:19Z")
[QUOTE=Greg Charles] The laws protecting anonymous sources, which must remain inviolate, do not and should not protect sources that knowingly spread disinformation. [/QUOTE] There are no laws protecting anonymous sources. It is all voluntary on the part of the media. Plenty of reporters have spent time in jail for not revealing sources. ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2008, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anthrax-letters-are-you-kidding-me/458532/77 "2008-08-05T11:16:30Z")
Everyone is happily reporting this as a suicide, and I want to know what evidence of suicide there is other than that the guy died as a result of an overdose of painkillers. It just seems very convenient to me that he should die when they are “a few weeks short of indicting him,” the therapist who got the restraining order sounds like a complete flake, he went into a mental facility in Jun or Jul but signed himself out 6 days later, so he can’t have presented too badly, and his neighbors and co-workers seem to have thought he was a perfectly nice guy who volunteered for the Red Cross. He may have done this. But he may not have. But based on what we’ve heard thus far, a decent lawyer could get this guy off in a New York minute, and quite possibly get another 5.8 million out of the FBI, and the antrax killer could be laughing his or her head off. I’m not usually big on conspiracy theories, but it would be nice to know what’s actually going on here. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2008, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anthrax-letters-are-you-kidding-me/458532/78 "2008-08-05T12:03:10Z")
> [@](#): > > I’m guessing here, but I’m guessing it was a Washington urban legend. Somebody said something to somebody, somebody who knew just enough to be wrong, and then word “bentonite” is all over the place, who knew from bentonite?, sounds like a mineral named after an English butler. YOU may not know, but I’ll bet in a Bush admiinistration, lots of people knew what _bentonite_ is. Bentonite is a particular form of clay. It’s heavily used in the oil industry to allow operations at high pressure. The name is al;l over the place in the Texas oil industry. And Bush and his father both ran oil companies, and plenty of those in his administration were familiar with it, and so, i’m certain, were plenty of associated Washington types. In fact, it probably wasn’t a case of “Who knows from Bentonite?”, but a case of “You can use Drilling Mud in Weaponized Diseases?” > **[Bentonite](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bentonite)** > > Bentonite (/ˈbɛntənaɪt/ BEN-tə-nyte) is an absorbent swelling clay consisting mostly of montmorillonite (a type of smectite) which can either be Na-montmorillonite or Ca-montmorillonite. Na-montmorillonite has a considerably greater swelling capacity than Ca-montmorillonite. > Bentonite usually forms from the weathering of volcanic ash in seawater, or by hydrothermal circulation through the porosity of volcanic ash beds, which converts (devitrification) the volcanic glass (obsidian, a volcani... ---
**Author:** ![CaveMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cavemike/32/16379_2.png) [@CaveMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaveMike)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2008, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anthrax-letters-are-you-kidding-me/458532/79 "2008-08-05T14:01:26Z")
[QUOTE=Squink] Yes, that’s what I was saying. A story linking the DNA to the Army lab showed up in New Scientist way back in 2003, then years of silence. Matching sequences between strains is no longer the rocket science it appeared to be back in 1983. If the work actually did take years, it’s because they were not trying very hard. [/QUOTE] [This](http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/05/washington/05anthrax.html?_r=1&ref=us&oref=login) is a good article from the NYT (registration required) that identifies some of the technical hurdles that the FBI went through. > [@NYT](#): > > To get that far, the Federal Bureau of Investigation had helped invent what was virtually a new science, microbial forensics, the use of biochemical clues to track a germ weapon to its source. > > The bureau sponsored research at a score of government and university laboratories intended to estimate the age of the anthrax, tracing the water used to grow it, assessing how it was made into an inhalable powder and, perhaps most important, taking its genetic fingerprint. and > [@NYT](#): > > Decoding the genome of a bacterium like anthrax may have cost around $500,000 in 2002, and even the F.B.I.’s budget would have been strained to decode thousands of genomes. A new generation of sequencing machines can now sequence bacterial genomes for around $500. But those machines did not become available until about 2005, which may have been another reason for the delay. In addition to providing possiblities for the slow pace, the article also includes objections to the FBIs process, pace, and conclusions. It is an interesting read. ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2008, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anthrax-letters-are-you-kidding-me/458532/80 "2008-08-05T14:53:46Z")
My problem with all of this is not that I can’t understand why it took so long to trace the stuff back to where it came from. I can believe that, and I can believe that they now can identify exactly where it came from. But I’ve worked on at least one secret project, and I know how people operate. On security matters, you trust the people you work with. You may think they’re an asshole who doesn’t know his elbow from a hole in the ground, but you don’t think he’s going to try to poison a bunch of people with anthrax or sell it to a bunch of crazies for some cause or another. So security is never as tight as they think it is. Everyone becomes blase about it over time. So I don’t care if they think this guy is the only guy who could have had access to this particular container, because if someone else wanted to, they could have, probably quite easily, so long as they worked inside and knew the routine of the place. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anthrax-letters-are-you-kidding-me/458532.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anthrax-letters-are-you-kidding-me/458532.md?page=5)