# Anthrax letters -- Are you kidding me? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 1, 2008, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anthrax-letters-are-you-kidding-me/458532 "2008-08-01T19:57:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2008, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anthrax-letters-are-you-kidding-me/458532/81 "2008-08-05T15:03:02Z")
[QUOTE=Oy!] My problem with all of this is not that I can’t understand why it took so long to trace the stuff back to where it came from. [/QUOTE] [This might help](http://www.juancole.com/) > [@](#): > > One thing I haven’t seen mentioned with regard to the attempt to implicate Iraq in the anthrax scare in fall of 2001 is the reason Iraq was hard to rule out as a source. It was that it clearly originated in labs in Ames, Iowa. The Reagan administration had permitted the provision to Iraq of anthrax precursors . . . from Ames, Iowa. That is, the Republican Party was proliferating weapons of mass destruction to Saddam Hussein in the 1980s, even though his regime was known to have deployed poison gas against Iran and against Iraqi Kurds. And, because Iraqi anthrax would have shown the Ames ancestry if analyzed, a foreign provenance-- however unlikely-- could not be ruled out by investigators. > > In the intelligence world, Iraqi anthrax, given Iraq by Washington, showing up in the US would have been called “blowback”-- the word for a covert operation that goes rogue and ends up harming the original sponsor. But even the inability to rule Iraq out was a form of blowback. Reagan and Rumsfeld muddied the waters for terrorism investigators by giving WMD to terrorist regimes. > > The New York Daily News reveals that > > ``` > 'After the Oct. 5, 2001, death from anthrax exposure of Sun photo editor Robert Stevens, [FBI Director Robert] Mueller was "beaten up" during President Bush's morning intelligence briefings for not producing proof the killer spores were the handiwork of terrorist mastermind Osama Bin Laden, according to a former aide. "They really wanted to blame somebody in the Middle East," the retired senior FBI official told The News.' > > ``` > > As usual, when Bush and Cheney could not get what they wanted in the way of propaganda from the FBI or CIA, they just made it up. That fall, McCain piled on: > > ``` > ' LETTERMAN: How are things going in Afghanistan now? > > MCCAIN: I think we’re doing fine. I think we’ll do fine. The second phase - if I could just make one, very quickly - the second phase is Iraq. There is some indication, and I don’t have the conclusions, but some of this anthrax may - and I emphasize may - have come from Iraq. > > LETTERMAN: Oh is that right? > > MCCAIN: If that should be the case, that’s when some tough decisions are gonna have to be made. ' > > ``` ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2008, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anthrax-letters-are-you-kidding-me/458532/82 "2008-08-05T15:07:14Z")
No, I said my problem was _not_ that I couldn’t understand the amount of time. Yes, I know the Bush Admin was trying to pin it on Iraq. I think that’s a completely different issue and should be bashed in a different thread. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2008, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anthrax-letters-are-you-kidding-me/458532/83 "2008-08-05T15:33:00Z")
[QUOTE=Oy!] No, I said my problem was _not_ that I couldn’t understand the amount of time. Yes, I know the Bush Admin was trying to pin it on Iraq. I think that’s a completely different issue and should be bashed in a different thread. [/QUOTE] Point taken, my bad but the wider point stands - there was a reason to think it could come from Iraq as the US Govt gave it to them in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2008, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anthrax-letters-are-you-kidding-me/458532/84 "2008-08-05T15:48:48Z")
In that case, I really want more proof it was a suicide than the simple fact that it was an OD of codeine! ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2008, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anthrax-letters-are-you-kidding-me/458532/85 "2008-08-05T16:04:36Z")
[QUOTE=Oy!] In that case, I really want more proof it was a suicide than the simple fact that it was an OD of codeine! [/QUOTE] What evidence would suffice? ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2008, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anthrax-letters-are-you-kidding-me/458532/86 "2008-08-05T16:19:23Z")
More specifically Tylenol 3 with codeine, and I suspect the Tylenol is more likely to have been the fatal ingredient. But it’s a slow death (over days) from organ failure, which raises the question of when he allegedly took the pills. ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2008, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anthrax-letters-are-you-kidding-me/458532/87 "2008-08-05T16:29:33Z")
I don’t know. But the simple fact that someone died of an OD of a pain killer doesn’t mean he killed himself. If I were killing myself, for example, I’d certainly wash those pain killers down with some (but not too much) booze, to make me fall asleep faster, but not risk vomitting. I guess what I’m saying is that if I were the cops, I’d be all over this with a fine tooth comb to ensure it wasn’t murder staged to look like suicide. If somebody is holding a gun to my head and I believe he’s gonna shoot, I’m going to swallow those pills - maybe you’re different, but I’m afraid of pain. I wish I could say I’d hold out and make them shoot me, but the fact is, I doubt I could unless they _really_ pissed me off instead of scaring me. If this is stuff that we deliberately allowed to fall into the hands of nasty people who dislike us for tactical reasons, and now we want to make sure no one ever knows about it… I know this sounds crazy, and it probably is. But I hate the fact that everyone is saying that he killed himself on the news without the slightest hesitation, when as far as I know, all we actually know is that he’s dead due to an overdose of codeine. And the two are not necessarily equivalent. I don’t know; maybe he left a note and no one happens to have mentioned it. But for now, all I know is that the man died of an OD, which may or may _not_ be suicide. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2008, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anthrax-letters-are-you-kidding-me/458532/88 "2008-08-05T16:36:11Z")
[QUOTE=Oy!] I don’t know. But the simple fact that someone died of an OD of a pain killer doesn’t mean he killed himself. If I were killing myself, for example, I’d certainly wash those pain killers down with some (but not too much) booze, to make me fall asleep faster, but not risk vomitting. [/quote] I’m just saying that this gets right up to that edge that capital-C Conspiracy Theories usually get to: if you think there’s a powerful conspiracy, how can you trust the evidence that points to the conspiracy? (Robert Anton Wilson made this point years ago, which is probably true of half the stuff I say.) In this case, if somebody framed this guy - someone presumbly connected to the government at a high level - and then forced him to kill himself, how can you trust any autopsy results, for example? > [@](#): > > I guess what I’m saying is that if I were the cops, I’d be all over this with a fine tooth comb to ensure it wasn’t murder staged to look like suicide. If somebody is holding a gun to my head and I believe he’s gonna shoot, I’m going to swallow those pills - maybe you’re different, but I’m afraid of pain. I’m the same way, but death from a bullet to the head is painless and if **Vinyl Turnip** is correct, this guy died slowly and probably painfully over the course of a few days. > [@](#): > > I don’t know; maybe he left a note and no one happens to have mentioned it. But for now, all I know is that the man died of an OD, which may or may _not_ be suicide. I think it’s been reported that there was no note. ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2008, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anthrax-letters-are-you-kidding-me/458532/89 "2008-08-05T16:45:16Z")
I know, **Marley** , and I’m usually not like this. I don’t know what it is about this case that gets me. Quite possibly my sheer distrust of the current administration. I simply don’t rule anything out when it comes to them, because they haven’t shown any limits as to how low they’ll go. I think the immediacy of being shot would probably win out and make me take the pills. But damn, if he died of an overdose of Tylenol, rather than codeine, don’t you think he would have called 911 even if he _was_ committing suicide? That’a a really shitty way to go. I didn’t see **Turnip** ’s post earlier - sorry, I just missed it! ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2008, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anthrax-letters-are-you-kidding-me/458532/90 "2008-08-05T16:50:48Z")
[QUOTE=Oy!] But damn, if he died of an overdose of Tylenol, rather than codeine, don’t you think he would have called 911 even if he _was_ committing suicide? [/QUOTE] Not really. But I’d like to know more about this whole thing, too, and I hope a lot more becomes public. ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2008, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anthrax-letters-are-you-kidding-me/458532/91 "2008-08-05T16:56:38Z")
Well, if I were oh-so-slowly dying of organ failure, having intended to peacefully die in my sleep, I do believe I’d be rethinking things and calling for help (and morphine!) by the second day myself. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2008, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anthrax-letters-are-you-kidding-me/458532/92 "2008-08-05T17:01:53Z")
[QUOTE=Oy!] Well, if I were oh-so-slowly dying of organ failure, having intended to peacefully die in my sleep, I do believe I’d be rethinking things and calling for help (and morphine!) by the second day myself. [/QUOTE] Eh. Again, this is really unknowable. I think we have to assume the guy knew some chemistry and would have done something else if he wanted to die immediately. And codeine and morphine are both opiates, so maybe I was wrong to suggest this was painful. Or maybe it was painful and his response was just to take more. I don’t know if we’ll ever find out. ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2008, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anthrax-letters-are-you-kidding-me/458532/93 "2008-08-05T17:26:28Z")
I know, but there’s a morbid part of me that seems to enjoy inflicting on myself just how much this guy must have been suffering if he was conscious. Just another day of fun and games in **Oy!** world. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2008, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anthrax-letters-are-you-kidding-me/458532/94 "2008-08-05T19:11:00Z")
Imagine how much more fun the suffering would be in high-definition widescreen. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![CaveMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cavemike/32/16379_2.png) [@CaveMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaveMike)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2008, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anthrax-letters-are-you-kidding-me/458532/95 "2008-08-05T19:16:23Z")
I don’t think the focus should be on whether Ivins committed suicide or was murdered. As **Marley** points out, if he was murdered by the FBI, then it would be nearly impossible to detect. Personally, I think if the FBI wanted to pin it on Ivins, they would have done a much better job of it. Likewise if a 3rd-party wanted to set him up. The important issue is whether Ivins was the real culprit or whether he was a weak-willed suspect that couldn’t take the pressure. The FBI thinks they got their man, but they were wrong with Hatfill. I’d like to see convincing evidence that it was indeed Ivins. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2008, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anthrax-letters-are-you-kidding-me/458532/96 "2008-08-05T19:19:43Z")
[QUOTE=CaveMike] The FBI thinks they got their man… [/QUOTE] Either that, or they think they’ve got a convenient scapegoat to serve as an excuse for shutting down the investigation. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2008, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anthrax-letters-are-you-kidding-me/458532/97 "2008-08-05T19:25:07Z")
[QUOTE=CaveMike] I don’t think the focus should be on whether Ivins committed suicide or was murdered. As **Marley** points out, if he was murdered by the FBI, then it would be nearly impossible to detect. [/QUOTE] Or rather, if he was murdered _by a government agency with the skills to pull off this kind of thing_, it would be nearly impossible to detect. I do not think the Bureau fits that description. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2008, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anthrax-letters-are-you-kidding-me/458532/98 "2008-08-05T19:30:07Z")
Well Ivins had a secret mail box that he had opend under a fake name that he used so he could get bondage porn, so he must be a bad person. Of course having your secret fetish about to be spread all over the nation may drive one to kill one’s self. ---
**Author:** ![CaveMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cavemike/32/16379_2.png) [@CaveMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaveMike)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2008, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anthrax-letters-are-you-kidding-me/458532/99 "2008-08-05T19:37:11Z")
[QUOTE=Marley23] Or rather, if he was murdered _by a government agency with the skills to pull off this kind of thing_, it would be nearly impossible to detect. I do not think the Bureau fits that description. [/QUOTE] Well someone in the FBI would have to be complicit, otherwise they would likely discover it was not suicide. I thought your argument was that a government agency could tamper with the autopsy report (for example). I would assume that the FBI would do their own autopsy as part of the entire investigation, realize that Ivins was killed, and continue the investigation. For the FBI to cover it up, someone inside would have to be part of the cover-up. Or is the assumption that the FBI is incompetent? I don’t buy that, just as I don’t buy that they killed Ivins. ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2008, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anthrax-letters-are-you-kidding-me/458532/100 "2008-08-05T19:37:11Z")
[QUOTE=Cervaise] Imagine how much more fun the suffering would be in high-definition widescreen. 😉 [/QUOTE] That’s just wrong. 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anthrax-letters-are-you-kidding-me/458532.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anthrax-letters-are-you-kidding-me/458532.md?page=6)