# Anthrax letters -- Are you kidding me? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 1, 2008, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anthrax-letters-are-you-kidding-me/458532 "2008-08-01T19:57:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2008, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anthrax-letters-are-you-kidding-me/458532/141 "2008-08-08T13:50:44Z")
[QUOTE=Marley23] I’m suggesting that the FBI does not have the ability to pull off that kind of murder, and I think the conduct of this case is evidence enough for that proposition. **If they were going to fake somebody’s suicide, it would have been Hatfill’s and it would have been six years ago.** The case had pretty much vanished from popular memory at this point and it wouldn’t be necessary to conclude it like this. This would require a Bureau that is competent enough to fake a scientist’s murder, but stupid enough to only consider that solution after screwing up a very public investigation for almost seven years - and not just screwing up the investigation, but blowing it so badly that their previous prime suspect successfully sued them for the damage they did to him. And for some reason, they didn’t kill him before he humiliated them like he did. It’s not impossible, it just doesn’t make much sense._[emphasis mine]_ [/QUOTE] I disagree with the bolded statement; I think it is possible that only **after** the incredibly expensive cock-up with Hatfill, some-one might say, “Just make this go away, any way you have to.” Furthermore, I have no doubt that somewhere in an organization as large as the FBI, there is at least one individual who could and would murder someone and make it look like suicide. But, just because I find it credible, doesn’t mean I am convinced it happened that way. I just won’t dismiss it on logical grounds. My first impression was that the FBI had adequate evidence to focus the investigation on Irvin, but inadequate evidence to secure a conviction (or, possibly, even an indictment); that Irvin committed suicide because he could not face the treatment Hatfill stood up to; and that this story will always remain the basis for a Conspiracy Theory (as opposed to a ‘conspiracy theory’). However, I am troubled by that ‘therapist’; what a stupid piece of evidence to release. That make no sense to me; the FBI should have know her qualifications and background would be investigated by the media … BTW, what does Hatfill say about this? ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2008, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anthrax-letters-are-you-kidding-me/458532/142 "2008-08-08T13:52:15Z")
(double post) ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2008, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anthrax-letters-are-you-kidding-me/458532/143 "2008-08-08T13:51:21Z")
(singing) “Oh my Candida, we could make it together. The further from here girl the better. Where the air is fresh and clean…” Er, GD is no place for a Tony Orlando song? ---
**Author:** ![CaveMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cavemike/32/16379_2.png) [@CaveMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaveMike)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2008, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anthrax-letters-are-you-kidding-me/458532/144 "2008-08-08T13:55:30Z")
[QUOTE=dropzone] Finally there’s that “therapist,” who is a piece of work herself and nowhere near qualified to judge his condition. [/QUOTE] From his emails, Ivins had a string of therapists. The FBI would have taken all of their input into account. ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2008, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anthrax-letters-are-you-kidding-me/458532/145 "2008-08-08T14:05:23Z")
[QUOTE=CaveMike] From his emails, Ivins had a string of therapists. The FBI would have taken all of their input into account. [/QUOTE] Don’t be so sure. Most therapists consider the privacy of their sessions to be as sacrosanct as lawyers do their sessions with clients or good reporters do the names of their sources or priests do the confessional. It’s one of the things that made me question the therapist. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2008, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anthrax-letters-are-you-kidding-me/458532/146 "2008-08-08T14:07:20Z")
[QUOTE=Oy!] It’s one of the things that made me question the therapist. [/QUOTE] Ivins referred to one of his therapists as “he.” The one you’re talking about is female, so that suggests there are at least two of them. ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2008, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anthrax-letters-are-you-kidding-me/458532/147 "2008-08-08T14:08:15Z")
I meant don’t be so sure that the FBI has testimony from other therapists, not that Ivins had more than one therapist. ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2008, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anthrax-letters-are-you-kidding-me/458532/148 "2008-08-08T14:13:55Z")
Let me add once again that I am not saying that Ivins was innocent or that the FBI murdered him or anything like that. I am simply saying that it does not appear from where I sit that the FBI has by any means proven its case against him, and if the press conference they gave a couple of days ago is the best evidence they have, it’s really not good enough. Their smoking gun doesn’t smoke well enough, their motive stinks to high heaven, and they have by no means clearly established opportunity, let alone sole opportunity. Ivins may well have been the killer, and he may even have been the only killer. But it’s not proven, and at this point, the case is being closed. That doesn’t make me feel warm and fuzzy. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2008, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anthrax-letters-are-you-kidding-me/458532/149 "2008-08-08T14:34:52Z")
That last “therapist” is the one who claimed he was dangerous and the FBI gave her statements inordinate weight. And since she isn’t really a therapist, just a beginning drug counselor, and seems a wee bit nutty herself, in reality her opinions hold considerably less weight than those of a proper MD or PhD. But, like **Oy!** said, you aren’t likely to get a good quote out of the other guys. ---
**Author:** ![CaveMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cavemike/32/16379_2.png) [@CaveMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaveMike)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2008, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anthrax-letters-are-you-kidding-me/458532/150 "2008-08-08T16:07:01Z")
[QUOTE=Measure for Measure] 3. Interestingly Ivins’ son was offered [$2.5 million](http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/08/fbi_used_aggressive_tactics.php) --and a newwwwwww carrrrr-- for help with solving the anthrax case. [/QUOTE] [NPR](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=93374304&ft=1&f=1001) reported yesterday that this is not true. ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2008, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anthrax-letters-are-you-kidding-me/458532/151 "2008-08-08T18:28:26Z")
[QUOTE=Oy!] Let me add once again that I am not saying that Ivins was innocent or that the FBI murdered him or anything like that. I am simply saying that it does not appear from where I sit that the FBI has by any means proven its case against him, and if the press conference they gave a couple of days ago is the best evidence they have, it’s really not good enough. Their smoking gun doesn’t smoke well enough, their motive stinks to high heaven, and they have by no means clearly established opportunity, let alone sole opportunity. Ivins may well have been the killer, and he may even have been the only killer. But it’s not proven, and at this point, the case is being closed. That doesn’t make me feel warm and fuzzy. [/QUOTE] This was my point. The FBI certainly has a well-presented case, but it still seems that their 100% conclusive and undeniable certainty that Ivins acted alone isn’t justified by those facts they’ve presented thus far. The FBI will make a big deal about a “Death to America” note (when the link I provided shows there’s hardly anything unique or conclusive about that), but won’t dwell on the fact that the handwriting on the envelopes didn’t match Ivins’. They’ll make a big deal about his working late in the lab (suspicious, but hardly conclusive) and not bring up that they can’t prove he was anywhere materially relevant to the dispersal of the anthrax. Sure, circumstantial evidence is used all the time (and often successfully) in criminal cases, but to argue with such complete confidence and assurance that you got your “man”, especially since the investigation has had a history of bungles and missteps over the years, you better present more of a “smoking gun” and less a daisy chain of hypotheticals. They’ll make claims that he was the only one who could’ve had access to this material and have the knowledge to synthesize it, but colleagues and records question the complete accuracy of these assertions. Could they completely rule out _everyone_ else who had access to this particular strain? There’s no possibility he might’ve had an accomplice, even? And just because he worked in that lab doesn’t mean he necessarily had the technical expertise to synthesize the anthrax into the rarefied level of fineness that typified this batch used in the attack–particularly given that it had to be done clandestinely. And how believable is it that, given that it had to be done clandestinely, that they would find absolutely zero forensic evidence to prove he might’ve done what they said he did. Is it reasonable to believe that he could completely eliminate every single bit of trace evidence of something that fine and easily dispersable? I’m not saying he didn’t do it and I’m not alleging that there’s some master cover-up going on. But it seems so convenient that the guy offs himself (which I believe he did on his own), and then the FBI, mere days later comes out with the “He did it/100% Guilty/Move along/Nothing to See Here” presentation. It reeks of opportunism, laying all of the blame on this one guy who they won’t have to try and who can’t defend himself. What agency wouldn’t prefer to close the case on a corpse than to continue to dwell on any number of avenues that still could merit investigation? And we do remember the last time the Feds were sure about their suspect, don’t we? There may be reasonable answers for any or all of these questions, but the “Trust us, it’s Finished” insistence that all loose ends are tied up (or irrelevant) is simply not all that convincing to me, given their track record thus far. IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2008, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anthrax-letters-are-you-kidding-me/458532/152 "2008-08-10T21:00:42Z")
Sorry, I haven’t been following this thread post by post, but in today’s news stories, there is probably a bit more damaging info about Ivins. [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2008/08/10/ST2008081000071.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2008/08/10/ST2008081000071.html) > [@](#): > > Duley is not a psychiatrist, a psychologist or even a social worker; in the highly stratified world of mental health, she is an addictions counselor who earns $20 an hour. She said she believed “100 percent” that Ivins was serious about his threats. Two days after she reported him to police, the FBI searched Ivins’s house and seized, among other items, hundreds of rounds of ammunition, homemade body armor and a bulletproof vest, according to Justice Department documents. . What would he need with homemade body armor and a bulletproof vest? > **[Clashing portraits of anthrax suspect](https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2008-aug-10-na-ivins10-story.html)** > > Respected scientist, odd eccentric, model citizen, reputed stalker. Bruce E. Ivins was all of these -- and, the FBI says, a killer. > [@](#): > > But there was another Bruce, one who sometimes lashed out in disjointed hostility. Starting in 1982 and continuing through last year, Ivins obsessively contacted a fellow University of North Carolina graduate student he’d known in the 1970s. The woman was a member of the Kappa Kappa Gamma sorority, which FBI officials said may have been “linked to location of anthrax mailings” in Princeton, N.J. And, further towards the link with KKG, [http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5icCsDXbi3Yojuvo5W4j01VxWio0wD92ENOO00](http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5icCsDXbi3Yojuvo5W4j01VxWio0wD92ENOO00) > [@](#): > > In the summer of 1982, Haigwood moved in with Scandella, then her fiancee, in a townhouse in the Washington, D.C., suburb of Montgomery Village. On Nov. 30 that year, Scandella awoke to find the Greek letters “KKG” spray-painted on the rear window of his car and on the sidewalk and fence in front of the home. Although a police report filed by Scandella does not mention any possible suspects, Haigwood quickly concluded that Ivins was responsible. > > “My address wasn’t published, and I only lived there a short while before Carl and I got married and moved out of state,” Haigwood said Friday. “No one knew my address or my phone number. You had to stalk me to figure this stuff out.” > > Records show that Ivins was living on the same street, about a block away, shortly after the incident. > [@](#): > > In an interview Friday, Kappa Kappa Gamma executive director Lauren Sullivan Paitson said the FBI asked in August 2007 for help documenting decades’ worth of Ivins’ contacts with the sorority, including breaking into the now-closed chapter house at the University of Maryland. The sorority disbanded at Maryland in 1992. > > But before being contacted by the FBI, Paitson had been engaged in an editing war on [Wikipedia.com](http://Wikipedia.com) with a writer by the name of “jimmyflathead” who threatened to post secret rituals and bad publicity about the sorority on the Web site. Court affidavits listed “[jimmyflathead@yahoo.com](mailto:jimmyflathead@yahoo.com)” among Ivins personal e-mail addresses. > > Only after the government asked for the sorority’s help did Paitson realize that the online Kappa nemesis was the top suspect in the anthrax investigation. Yeah, I know, all circumstantial… ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2008, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anthrax-letters-are-you-kidding-me/458532/153 "2008-08-10T21:39:14Z")
There are lots of people who are crazy as a bedbug, but they don’t send anthrax through the mail. This man died before there could be a trial, and we are _never_ going to know unless someone else happens to confess or we miraculously turn up conclusive evidence that can truly close the case. The only way we could even possibly get close with the evidence we have now would be to hold a trial with someone coached extremely well on the details of Ivins’ life and work playing Ivins and represented by a team of top trial lawyers. And that charade would cost millions, and wouldn’t be conclusive. ETA: Hell, a _trial_ wouldn’t have been conclusive. Not with this kind of evidence. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2008, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anthrax-letters-are-you-kidding-me/458532/154 "2008-08-11T01:36:02Z")
A hundred rounds of ammo is one box, buyable at Wal-Mart, $25. It’s one event’s shooting for me. Considering I don’t want to drive out of my county every week, I tend to pick up four or five at a time. Hundreds of rounds of ammo is not _much_. The bulletproof vest, we’re talking about a research scientist. Why _not_? They’re cool. I might get one for the heck of it, myself. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2008, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anthrax-letters-are-you-kidding-me/458532/155 "2008-08-11T16:40:50Z")
Heres an article written by an expert. He sees little to implicate Ivins. > **[Opinion | Open Questions on a Closed Case (Published 2008)](https://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/10/opinion/10andrews.html?_r=3&oref=login&oref=slogin&oref=slogin)** > > Investigators must reveal the scientific methods they used to match the anthrax letters to Bruce Ivins. ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2008, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anthrax-letters-are-you-kidding-me/458532/156 "2008-08-11T17:44:37Z")
More from [Greenwald](http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2008/08/10/anthrax/index.html): > [@](#): > > The FBI’s total failure to point to a shred of evidence placing Ivins in New Jersey on either of the two days the anthrax letters were sent is a very conspicuous deficiency in its case. It’s possible that Ivins was able to travel to Princeton on two occasions in three weeks without leaving the slightest trace of having done so (not a credit card purchase, ATM withdrawal, unusual gas purchases, nothing), but that relies on a depiction of Ivins as a cunning and extremely foresightful criminal, an image squarely at odds with most of the FBI’s circumstantial evidence that suggests Ivins was actually quite careless, even reckless, in how he perpetrated this crime (spending unusual amounts of time in his lab before the attacks despite knowing that there would be a paper trail; taking an “administrative leave” from work to go mail the anthrax letters rather than just doing it on the weekend when no paper trail of his absence would be created; using his own anthrax strain rather than any of the other strains to which he had access at Fort Detrick; keeping that strain in its same molecular form for years rather than altering it, etc.). > > The FBI dumped a large number of uncorroborated conclusions at once on Wednesday, carefully assembled to create the most compelling case they could make, and many people – as intended – jumped to proclaim that it was convincing. But the more that case is digested and assessed, the more questions and the more skepticism seem to arise among virtually everyone. The New Jersey business is particularly interesting because the FBI initially listed a window of time when the letters must’ve been mailed because of the postmark on the letters. But since Ivins has an alibi for that window, they are now claiming that he mailed the letters earlier that day and then got to where he was verified to be that night (3 hours away). The only problem is that if he had mailed the letters earlier that day, they would’ve carried a different postmark. So the evidence they’re trying to pin on him actually in-a-way exonerates him (at least directly; there’s no reason an accomplice could’ve dropped off the letters in another state, except that the FBI has ruled out that possibility in their Acted-Alone assertion). ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2008, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anthrax-letters-are-you-kidding-me/458532/157 "2008-08-11T22:44:32Z")
[QUOTE=gonzomax] Heres an article written by an expert. He sees little to implicate Ivins. [/QUOTE] > [@That Link](#): > > Dr. Ivins, for instance, was asked to analyze the anthrax envelope that was sent to Mr. Daschle’s office on Oct. 9, 2001. When his team analyzed the powder, they found it to be a startlingly refined weapons-grade anthrax spore preparation, the likes of which had never been seen before by personnel at Fort Detrick. > > It is extremely improbable that this type of preparation could ever have been produced at Fort Detrick, certainly not of the grade and quality found in that envelope. So, this guy was so good that he made, in his kitchen, weaponized anthrax that was BETTER than what he could make at work? Gerry Spence would wipe the courtroom floor with the entire Justice Department. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anthrax-letters-are-you-kidding-me/458532.md?page=7)