It certainly is killing. Whether it is killing of a human being or not is what the debate is about, but it is killing. And asserting that it is simply a medical procedure does not make it so.
Oh, fuck off, you smug prick. Simply asserting that abortion is killing doesn’t make it so either.
Abortions are performed by licensed medical professionals and as such are medical procedures. It ends a life, but it is no more of a living being at that stage than the weeds a gardener pulls up to let his crops or flowers grow.
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Well, if there’s anything I can do for ya…
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Euthanasia, is a legal medical practise in some countries. It is carried out with the patients consent by medical practitioners. The end result is a death. euthanasia is a killing. The same is true of a abortion. It may not be murder, but it’s certainly a killing. by simple definition it’s a killing and however you view a fetus, you cannot get away from this.
Weeding a garden involves killing unwanted plants. Fumigating a house involves killing unwanted insects. You don’t hear anyone, with the possible exception of some severly wacky militants, making a fuss about these. Why should the termination of an unwanted fetus be treated any differently? What is your point in asserting that abortion is killing?
Because to those who believe it, the fetus is a human being, and therefore of more value than an insect or a plant, and they find the killing of a human being, even an unborn one, to be an immoral act.
And therefore what? Does that belief give them the right to harass Valkyrie and her co-workers as they walk in to the clinic each morning? Or the patients who come in for the procedure?
Does that belief justify the actions of such folk as Eric Rudolph, or the man who shot up the clinic in Boston, or the man who shot Dr. Slepian through his kitchen window?
You believe abortion is killing. Fine. If you’re a woman who believes that, you obviously don’t have to have one. If you’re a man who believes that, you need to make sure you don’t get your partner into a situation where it might become an option. As for those of us who disagree, stay the fuck out of our faces. Just because you have the right to your opinion doesn’t mean we have the obligation to put up with listening to you spout it. Or any of the concomitant abuse and obscenities you feel you need to while you’re doing it.
Captain Amazing, I don’t mean you specifically when I say “you” in that last paragraph. I’m speaking more to the wingnuts and bigots who give Valkyrie shit in the mornings at work, and the absolute stark raving bastards who feel so strongly about it that they have to drive around in an old rebuilt schoolbus with wall-hanging-sized pictures of third-trimester abortions to make their point.
Can you tell it’s a bit of a touchy subject? 
First was to me, second to lemur, just in case anyone’s confused.
Olent, asserting that abortion isn’t killing doesn’t make it so anymore than asserting that it is killing makes that so. As each is a baseless statement (not backed up by anything), they’re equally useless.
The problem with this is that you’re assuming that people who picket abortion clinics have the same reasons for opposing abortions as, say, me (pro-lifer). This is akin to assuming that every person who is pro-death penalty ascribes to the same beliefs about why it should exist, or shouldn’t apply to X people, or whathaveyou.
I hope you’re not equating a weed to a child 8 months into development, Olent. It looks like you are. There are differences, though I’m confident in your ability, as an intelligent SDMB poster, to know them.
I would remind you that there are dopers who don’t believe in killing insects unless absolutely necessary, and they are not (at least not the ones I can remember) militant.
Lastly. If you don’t have to put up with us telling you we don’t agree with it, we don’t have to put up with you saying that abortion isn’t killing. Fair enough?
We are not, all of us pro-lifers, militant about it. I, for example, do not go parading around the houses of those who will have or have had abortions and tell them how they’re going to burn in hell, showing them pictures of the babies they’ve murdered, and generally being disruptive to an extreme degree. As such I don’t really find it appropriate to lump all pro-life people into one broad-sweeping “religious zealots without any form of tangible argument not deriving from the Bible”.
You have the right to your beliefs, and I mine, regardless of what we may think of each other’s beliefs. I will maintain that you are not one of the people who go killing fetuses for fun if you maintain that I am not a blind zealot. Deal?
In their minds, if abortion is the killing of a human being, and, if the killing of a human being is an immoral act, than those people who commit abortions are committing immoral acts, and stopping them is a moral act, because it is moral to stop those who wish to do evil from doing evil. Therefore, they are justified.
Someone like Eric Rudolph believes he is justified on utilitarian grounds. If the life of a doctor who performs abortions is equal in value to the life of a fetus he aborts, then killing a doctor who would otherwise perform 10 abortions has resulted in a net gain of 9 lives.
I do not neccesarily agree with the views expressed above.
I think it’s a real shame that we’ve allowed such an idiotic OP to spawn an actual debate (well, argument anyway). This thread should focus on mocking lenin. We can devote other threads to not changing each others’ minds about abortion.
What is it if it’s not killing? The fact of the matter is that the cells of a fetus, even in it’s earliest stage of deveolpment, are dividing and forming something that will become a sentient being. Abortion halts this process, thereby killing the organism. The point of asserting that abortion is killing is that terms like ‘proceedure’ sanitise the process and, in the long run, trivialise it. Today abortion may be referred to by some as a proceedure, tomorrow it may be referred to by some as ‘taking out the trash’. I personally don’t ever want to see that happening.
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*Originally posted by Olentzero *
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Oh great. The “don’t impose your morality on others” argument.
It’s 1856. You believe owning slaves is wrong. Fine. Don’t own any slaves then. But don’t impose your morality on the rest of us landowners who depend on the use of slaves to make a living. Stay the fuck out of our faces. Yadda yadda yadda
Pity this is the Pit, though. In a tip o’ the pin to Giraffe, I will say that the OP was indeed a gimpily lame cripple of a rant, and if it were a beast of burden it should be shot and either eaten or sold to the knackers.
Now, to the people who are actually seriously involved in this debate.
First, iampunha:
My point exactly. (cf “fuck off, you smug prick”).
I wouldn’t say either statement is baseless, expecially since they are backed up by an argument each, viz. “it ends a life” and “it is performed by trained and licensed medical professionals”. The former argument, however, is a value-based argument (are there times when killing is acceptable? Euthanasia? Execution?) while the latter is more factually based. You did quote me on agreeing that abortion does end a life (and I would like to qualify that further by saying “potential life”), but you cannot reduce abortion to either killing or a medical procedure. It is both.
Fundamentally, you do. You both believe that abortion is a moral wrong. Now whether you believe it is a moral wrong that should be stopped by any means necessary is another story. There are people that do, and act on that belief; IMO they are scum. If you don’t agree with it but don’t believe that women who want an abortion shouldn’t be prevented from having one, that’s fine.
Oh, Jesus H. Wesley tap-dancin’ Christ on a pogo stick, punha. You know as well as I do that less than 1% of abortions in the U.S. are performed in the third trimester. Most states, if not all states that have clinics, have laws forbidding abortions past 13 weeks unless it’s a medical emergency of some sort. Washington DC performs up to 16 week, IIRC, but if there are any states that allow abortions further into the pregnancy I haven’t heard of it. So don’t try to put words in my mouth. Fetuses at 13 weeks are little more than highly organized collections of cells that are wholly dependent on a host. There is the potential for it to become a human, but at that point it isn’t one - much like an acorn that has just sent out shoots is not an oak tree.
And yet they still allow for the possibility of killing insects. Presumably along the lines of fumigation - eliminating unwanted insects. Why should a woman therefore not be allowed to terminate an unwanted pregnancy?
Did I or did I not say that abortion does indeed end a life? I refer you to your last post, in which you quote me saying so. Furthermore, I did not say I don’t want to hear you say you don’t agree with it. I said I don’t want to put up with the harassment and violence some anti-choice people feel they need to commit because they don’t agree with it.
Finally - I refer again to my statement towards Captain Amazing. I don’t believe everyone who doesn’t agree with abortion is a raving lunatic who feels compelled to harass or kill clinic workers and doctors. But I loathe with every fiber of my being those that are.
Captain Amazing:
Timothy McVeigh believed the US government was at war with its own citizenry. Therefore the government needed to be fought against.
I know you said you don’t necessarily agree with your statement, and I fervently hope this is the case. I just want to show that “justification through belief” can lead to some serious atrocities. Especially if the beliefs are ill-founded.
McMurphy:
I’ve qualified that statement, as you will see if you’ve read my later posts. It is not “just” killing. There are reasons for abortions being performed, and they are performed under medically acceptable conditions.
So do miscarriages. Are they acceptable because it’s “Nature’s way” or “God’s will”, while abortions are not because they’re done by people?
And, finally, beagledave:
Oh, please. :rolleyes: Slavery was the denial of Blacks’ rights to freedom and equal treatment as human beings. Outlawing abortion is the denial of women’s rights to control their own bodies. There’s a world of difference between the two, and that not even on a moral basis. Fighting for the rights of humans already born is not the imposition of morality.
Slight hijack here. There was a gentleman by the name of Michael Bailey here in Indiana that was elected to Congress. In and of itself, no big deal. However, the only ads I ever saw him run were a pro-life platform that included showing pictures and videotapes of fetuses that had been aborted.
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Since I don’t believe that faith in God makes one moral, or that lack of faith makes one amoral, you’ll never hear be bring God into my arguments against abortion.
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If two consenting adults choose to have sex, they have made a choice. If they don’t decide to use birth control, that is another choice. If they do chose to use birth control, they should realize that this choice only reduces their risks of having an unwanted pregnancy. Were I to get pregnant when I didn’t wish to, I would have the child, whether I decided to put it up for adoption or not. I would have known the risks, and it’s not the child’s responsibility to pay for my mistakes.
As for equal rights, I think unborn children have the same right to a life that I do. While I wouldn’t condemn a woman who has an abortion after becoming pregnant due to rape or incest, I don’t, as many militant pro-choice people gleefully note as point of hypocrisy, believe that these babies are any less alive or that aborting them is less wrong than it is to abort babies because of their inconvenience, but that in some cases this wrong is less wrong than the alternative.
I’m not in favor of overturning Roe Vs Wade, either, by the way. That would only lead to more loss of life, not less. Better birth control, to prevent unwanted conceptions in the first place, and perhaps a short (48 hour or so) waiting period between counciling and abortions would be more of what I’d like to see-because many women become depressed/suicidal when they don’t take the time to think their decisions through until after the fact. Basically, I would love to see a time in which abortion is an uncommon pratice because there would be few unwanted pregnancies at all.
This is one thing that has always dumbfounded me about my liberal friends’ attitudes. Why do they want to protect a vicious cold blooded killer by appealing for his humanity, which gives him some sort of worth by merely being human, while at the same time not bat an eye when it comes to killing an innocent unborn child? That’s a pretty fucked up sense of justice, in my opinion. The death penalty punishes those guilty of unspeakable crimes. Abortion punishes the unborn for someone else’s mistakes. How can it be ok to punish someone for others mistakes, but not their own?
Olentzero, I don’t object to abortion solely on religious grounds, I personally accept the idea that from the moment of conception the potential for personhood is created, if not a sentient being. From that standpoint I think abortion is wrong. I know you didn’t bring this up but I’d just like to make sure we’re on the same page.
Anyway,
To an extent, I would agree. However, it’s the weight of these reasons which usually sparks debate. For example, I have no problem with an abortion being carried out if the mother is at risk. However, I am opposed to an abortion for the sake of convenience.
The fact that the ‘proceedure’ is carried out in clean and sanitised conditions does not sanitise the act itself. If someone has decided to have an abortion they should at least be aware of the gravity of the act they are about to perform and I feel that attempting to clease the act of any moral obligation by referring to it as a medical practise is wrong. You said “you cannot reduce abortion to either killing or a medical procedure. It is both.” and whilst I agree, I do believe that the balance is shifting too far towards the latter term. Perhaps I’m getting too hung up on the semantics of the issue and if you want to deem it a mere ‘proceedure’, fine. Just make sure the other side of the definition is also diseminated just as frequently.
They are acceptable because there’s nothing we can do to ensure their prevention. One is simple tragedy, the other is premeditated tragedy (here, I exclude cases where the mothers health is at risk, as I said above). I cannot reconcile myself to the latter.
Thank heaven someone is willing to stand up for this! I can’t tell you how many of my pro-choice friends are fighting, right now, to let women who are 32 weeks along–but bored with the whole business–to abort. It sickens me!
I confess with some shame that I was mighty tempted myself, I recall, after doing up the nursery and getting my maternity leave all worked out, four weeks before my due date… one morning I woke up and said “You know, I hate these big clothes. And I can’t decide on a middle name. Someone get me the phone number for Planned Parenthood; I’m ending this thing!” Imagine my initial disappointment (but subsequent relief and gratefulness to pro-lifers, the only ones who care about this sort of thing) to find that you can’t voluntarily abort a baby this far along.
It’s a problem of nearly epidemic proportions, those 8-month pregger mommies-to-be, having a bad day and just giving up on it.
Oh pleasssssse… who are you to say that blacks are human beings deserving of equal treatment? :rolleyes: Just because YOU consider them to be deserving of equal rights doesn’t mean the rest of us have to…it sure as hell IS the imposition of morality to tell slaveowners that they can’t use property as they choose just because some outsiders don’t want them to. Nice try though.
OK, you think abortion is wrong. But do you think it’s a wrong that needs to be outlawed or a wrong that you would never want your wife/girlfriend/SO to undergo?
Have you ever been in the waiting room of an abortion clinic?
No?
OK, let me tell you about it then. They have cake and ice cream for the underage girls, and hard liquor a gogo for the women over 21. Plenty of loud music, funky light shows, and on Saturdays they hire male strippers. I should know; Valkyrie works in one and I’ve done a couple tours of duty on Saturdays myself.
smack upside the head Get with the program, McMurphy. :rolleyes: Women don’t just waltz into a Planned Parenthood on a whim. Any woman in there has already gone through some hard thinking and reflection before they made their decision. Assuming they haven’t is an insult to them.
Semantics. Besides, do you honestly think clinic workers are going to ask a woman over the phone “what time would you like to come in and have your baby killed?”
beagledave - I got fifteen years’ worth of civil rights activism in the Deep South, three constitutional amendments from the 1860s, and a couple of congressional acts from the 1960s says your precious “Dred Scott” decision was a tragic mistake. But come to think of it, I have no desire to impose my morality on you.
I’d much rather impose my ass on your face so you can kiss it. And make with the tongue, please - I just couldn’t get it properly wiped this morning.
elfkin477 - I don’t have a problem with a lot of what you posted. Your personal decision is not to have an abortion should you become pregnant unexpectedly. Having a choice on abortion at all means being able to choose not to, instead of being forced not to.
This, however, has some practical consequences I wonder if you’ve thought about. Fully 86% of the counties in the United States don’t have an abortion clinic. This means that the overwhelming majority of women have to do some serious traveling, either across state or out of state, in order to get to a clinic in the first place. For a woman who works a minimum-wage job with no leave policy, getting permission to take two days off in a four-day period and trying to cover her shifts - not to mention the reduction in pay she’ll have to take because of it - makes getting an abortion a nigh-impossible task. If a woman has decided to have an abortion, she should be able to get it the same day.
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I won’t deny that an abortion is a painful procedure with physical and emotional consequences. Waiting two more days is not going to lessen that pain any, nor is it going to make it less likely that a woman will become depressed or suicidal. And again, it’s insulting to women to say they haven’t thought the decision through enough, or even at all, before they have an abortion.