# Anti-abortionists, are you also against the use of contraception? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 1, 2011, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-abortionists-are-you-also-against-the-use-of-contraception/587474 "2011-07-01T03:46:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2011, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-abortionists-are-you-also-against-the-use-of-contraception/587474/61 "2011-07-10T20:01:00Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > Why then is killing innocent people okay in a war? There are exceptions to every rule. and to believe a fertile egg is a human being is not a biloligical fact. The law sets a time when abortion is illegal, except in the case of saving the mother’s life. Her life is important, more so than a group of cells that cannot be told to be yet a human being(it will become one).Self defense should also be a woman’s right, just as in any other case. It is a religious concept that conception makes the cells a human being, not a biological one. Bull crap. You don’t have to be religious to see that life begins at conception. Fertilization of the egg is the very starting point of human life. That’s not religious dogma, it’s biological fact. ---
**Author:** ![Lissla\_Lissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8491ac/32.png) [@Lissla\_Lissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissla_Lissar)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2011, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-abortionists-are-you-also-against-the-use-of-contraception/587474/62 "2011-07-10T20:44:52Z")
> [@](#): > > the worst kind of unnatural birth control is the RCC’s expecting a healthy sex life for the parteners when they have to take their temp. etc. It is not natural! Doing just fine, thanks for your concern. Noticing my cervical signs takes five seconds a day, about as long as it would take me to take the Pill every morning. Whether or not you think it’s a good idea, the RCC is pretty big on self-control- we don’t think that if you abstain for a couple of days because you don’t want to get pregnant, then you’re going to diiiieee and it’s terribly unnatural. It isn’t as easy as just getting it on if you feel like it, but it’s not incredibly burdensome, in general. Speaking from personal experience, my own and a whole bunch of my NFPing friends. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2011, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-abortionists-are-you-also-against-the-use-of-contraception/587474/63 "2011-07-10T20:56:40Z")
> [@Recovering\_Republican](#): > > So your logic is that if a woman can’t stand the thought of giving up a baby, she should just kill it? A fetus isn’t a baby. > [@Recovering\_Republican](#): > > For the left- too many abortions happen because people (men and women) are irresponsible. Getting an abortion is responsible. > [@Nobody](#): > > Bull crap. You don’t have to be religious to see that life begins at conception. No, but you probably are religiously motivated if you use such a definition because that’s a definition that exists only to justify the war against abortion, and that movement is strongly religious. > [@Nobody](#): > > Fertilization of the egg is the very starting point of human life. That’s not religious dogma, it’s biological fact. No it isn’t. As has been pointed out again and again, sperm and eggs are just as human. There is no “starting point” for human life. Just a blurry evolution of proto-human to human in prehistory. ---
**Author:** ![Indygrrl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@Indygrrl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indygrrl)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2011, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-abortionists-are-you-also-against-the-use-of-contraception/587474/64 "2011-07-10T21:03:24Z")
I try really hard to get past the mudslinging and consider the “pro-life” side of things without being an asshole. Unfortunately, I don’t seem to come across many of you who are interested in explaining them to me. A few of you have touched on my points from my first post in this thread, and of course, there’s been no shortage of flippant comments instead of giving a thought-out answer. And that sucks, because of all places the SDMB is where I come for intelligent, mostly civilized discourse on things that quickly devolve into flamewars on almost every other site. I can’t remember who asked, but I got the 100, 000 number of unwanted children from a government statistical website. It was just a few days ago I found it for another discussion. Let me see if I can find it real quick and I’ll be back. ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2011, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-abortionists-are-you-also-against-the-use-of-contraception/587474/65 "2011-07-10T21:08:15Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No it isn’t. As has been pointed out again and again, sperm and eggs are just as human. There is no “starting point” for human life. Just a blurry evolution of proto-human to human in prehistory. The sperm fertilizing the egg is what starts the whole thing off. Eggs and sperm by themselves do not divide and grow into babies. And saying that it’s not a human or person while inside the womb isn’t very scientific. What, does coming in contact with outside air magically transform it into a human? So a seven month old in the womb isn’t human, but if it’s born prematurely then after birth it’s suddenly a human? ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2011, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-abortionists-are-you-also-against-the-use-of-contraception/587474/66 "2011-07-10T21:19:30Z")
> [@Indygrrl](#): > > I try really hard to get past the mudslinging and consider the “pro-life” side of things without being an asshole. Unfortunately, I don’t seem to come across many of you who are interested in explaining them to me. A few of you have touched on my points from my first post in this thread, and of course, there’s been no shortage of flippant comments instead of giving a thought-out answer. > > And that sucks, because of all places the SDMB is where I come for intelligent, mostly civilized discourse on things that quickly devolve into flamewars on almost every other site. > > I can’t remember who asked, but I got the 100, 000 number of unwanted children from a government statistical website. It was just a few days ago I found it for another discussion. Let me see if I can find it real quick and I’ll be back. I’m sorry. I rarely post in GD and when I do I’m usually very good about not getting emotional, but this time for some reason I decided screw it; If everybody else is going to get emotional, I might as well join in. But that’s what makes this debate hard. It’s difficult for people of opposing views to have a rational, logical discussion while leaving their emotions behind. And even if you can do that, agreeing on the facts is another obstacle. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2011, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-abortionists-are-you-also-against-the-use-of-contraception/587474/67 "2011-07-10T21:22:43Z")
> [@Nobody](#): > > The sperm fertilizing the egg is what starts the whole thing off. Eggs and sperm by themselves do not divide and grow into babies. Oh, really? What about embryos that split into identical twins? Or merge together? Or what about cloning, with cloning every cell in you body can potentially divide and grow into babies; are they all “human lives”? And a fertilized cell doesn’t grow on its own any more than the sperm and egg do. Your definition doesn’t hold up under examination. > [@Nobody](#): > > And saying that it’s not a human or person while inside the womb isn’t very scientific. What, does coming in contact with outside air magically transform it into a human? > So a seven month old in the womb isn’t human, but if it’s born prematurely then after birth it’s suddenly a human? Person, not human; I kill human life every time I kill a few cells scratching myself. Biologically, the point you are looking for doesn’t exist; there’s no bright line between person and non-person. And legally, yes, birth is when it qualifies as a person because that’s when it’s biologically independent. “My body, my choice” ceases to be a relevant issue when it’s no longer dependent on the mother’s body. ---
**Author:** ![Indygrrl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@Indygrrl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indygrrl)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2011, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-abortionists-are-you-also-against-the-use-of-contraception/587474/68 "2011-07-10T21:35:27Z")
Ok, here’s a cite for those adoption numbers. In 2006 there were 129,000 children in the U.S. Waiting to be adopted. [http://www.govspot.com/know/adoption.htm](http://www.govspot.com/know/adoption.htm) I don’t understand how anyone, regardless of religion or anything else, can talk about what a great alternative adoption is when there are this many unwanted children already here. No way can anyone justify adding to this number. ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2011, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-abortionists-are-you-also-against-the-use-of-contraception/587474/69 "2011-07-10T21:36:14Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Oh, really? What about embryos that split into identical twins? What about them? > [@](#): > > Or merge together? Huh? > [@](#): > > Or what about cloning, with cloning every cell in you body can potentially divide and grow into babies; are they all “human lives”? A fertilized egg DOES divide and grow. I’m talking about what actually happens, not what could potentially happen. > [@](#): > > And a fertilized cell doesn’t grow on its own any more than the sperm and egg do. An egg needs to be fertilized before it will grow. An unfertilized egg or a sperm will never grow. > [@](#): > > Your definition doesn’t hold up under examination. Yes it does. > [@](#): > > Person, not human; I kill human life every time I kill a few cells scratching myself. Really? You’re going to play semantics? You honestly don’t know that when we pro-lifers talk about taking human life, we’re talking about killing the whole body, not just tiny parts of it? I think you do know. > [@](#): > > Biologically, the point you are looking for doesn’t exist; there’s no bright line between person and non-person. And legally, yes, birth is when it qualifies as a person because that’s when it’s biologically independent. “My body, my choice” ceases to be a relevant issue when it’s no longer dependent on the mother’s body. Is a person on a respirator, using a pacemaker, or in any other way not biologically independent no longer a person then? If somebody is disabled and needs a care-taker should their care-taker be able to decide to kill them? ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2011, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-abortionists-are-you-also-against-the-use-of-contraception/587474/70 "2011-07-10T21:56:00Z")
> [@Indygrrl](#): > > Ok, here’s a cite for those adoption numbers. In 2006 there were 129,000 children in the U.S. Waiting to be adopted. > > [govspot.com](http://www.govspot.com/know/adoption.htm) > > I don’t understand how anyone, regardless of religion or anything else, can talk about what a great alternative adoption is when there are this many unwanted children already here. No way can anyone justify adding to this number. Pretend for a moment that you believe that an unborn child’s life is just as valuable as your own. Now also pretend that you know pregnant lady who’s contemplating abortion and you feel that you should try to talk her out of it (again, this all just pretend). What alternative would you give her if not adoption? [From here:](http://www.mastersinhealthcare.com/blog/2011/15-shocking-statistics-on-nursing-homes/) > [@](#): > > More than 30% of all nursing homes experience some form of resident abuse: Nearly 1/3 of all nursing homes have residents that are subject to abuse, whether it’s by staff or other residents. These include malnutrition, physical abuse, psychological distress, exploitation, neglect, and sexual abuse. > In 2005, almost all nursing homes had at least one deficiency: Statistics show that in 2005, 91.7% of America’s nursing homes were cited by health inspectors for at least one deficiency. > … > 90% of US nursing homes have staff levels too low for adequate care: Statistics on abuse and neglect are not so shocking when you realize that 90% of nursing homes do not have the staff levels available to care for their patients effectively. > … > Twenty complaints per nursing home were received in 2007: With 257,872 complaints relating to quality of care, facilities, staffing, and other factors, there was an average of 20 complaints per nursing home in 2007. With statistics like this, it doesn’t seem like it would be a good thing to put somebody in a nursing home, but how many people would think that we should kill old people instead (after passing a law to make it legal)? Absurd, I know, but to a pro-lifer, killing a baby rather than putting it in an over-crowded adoption agency is morally equivalent to killing an old person rather than risking putting them in an abusive and neglectful retirement home. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-abortionists-are-you-also-against-the-use-of-contraception/587474/71 "2011-07-11T00:29:46Z")
Quoth **Nobody** : > [@](#): > > Bull crap. You don’t have to be religious to see that life begins at conception. > Fertilization of the egg is the very starting point of human life. That’s not religious dogma, it’s biological fact. True but irrelevant. I’ve lost count of the number of times I’ve brought this up now: Human life does not bear any special consideration; _personhood_ does. **Der Trihs** ’ questions about identical twins and chimeras address this: If the starting point for whatever it is is conception, does that mean that a pair of identical twins is a single entity? Does it mean that a chimera is two entities? Or for that matter, what about a culture of HeLa cells? Do HeLa cells deserve any special consideration? ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-abortionists-are-you-also-against-the-use-of-contraception/587474/72 "2011-07-11T00:47:30Z")
> [@](#): > > So your logic is that if a woman can’t stand the thought of giving up a baby, she should just kill it? No, the logic is unless you, yourself are confident that you would be strong enough to surrender, a child of yours, to adoption, don’t go recommending it to others. You know not of what you speak. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-abortionists-are-you-also-against-the-use-of-contraception/587474/73 "2011-07-11T00:52:49Z")
> [@](#): > > Just because the majority believes something doesn’t necessarily make it so, or make it right. And yet, when the law reflected your view, some how that was okay. No one is saying Jim Crow laws were right, we evolved, we moved forward. We have also evolved on the issue of abortion. Now the majority are behind choice, because it satisfies the needs of those who don’t want to have abortions (don’t have one), and those who do. Yeah, it sucks to be on the other side than the majority. Those who believe in a woman’s right to determine her own reproductive future, know this only too well. Come back, in a couple of hundred years, and we’ll talk. ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-abortionists-are-you-also-against-the-use-of-contraception/587474/74 "2011-07-11T02:50:08Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Quoth **Nobody** :True but irrelevant. I’ve lost count of the number of times I’ve brought this up now: Human life does not bear any special consideration; _personhood_ does. **Der Trihs** ’ questions about identical twins and chimeras address this: If the starting point for whatever it is is conception, does that mean that a pair of identical twins is a single entity? Does it mean that a chimera is two entities? One life becoming two or two becoming one, what does this have to do with abortion. > [@](#): > > Or for that matter, what about a culture of HeLa cells? Do HeLa cells deserve any special consideration? According to Wikipedia “The line was derived from cervical cancer cells” so I’m going to have to have to say no, they don’t. Hey, wasn’t this thread supposed to be about pro-lifers and contraception? This is has devolved into yet another abortion thread. Getting back to the actual thread topic, like I said earlier, I do go against my church when it comes to artificial contraception. With no pregnancy the issue of abortion never comes up, and no babies are added to an over-populated adoption system. ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-abortionists-are-you-also-against-the-use-of-contraception/587474/75 "2011-07-11T02:51:38Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > And yet, when the law reflected your view, some how that was okay. > > No one is saying Jim Crow laws were right, we evolved, we moved forward. We have also evolved on the issue of abortion. Now the majority are behind choice, because it satisfies the needs of those who don’t want to have abortions (don’t have one), and those who do. > > Yeah, it sucks to be on the other side than the majority. Those who believe in a woman’s right to determine her own reproductive future, know this only too well. Come back, in a couple of hundred years, and we’ll talk. Ah yes, in a couple of hundred years I’ll be as evolved and enlightened as you are. No wait, I’ll be long dead and thus, long since caring about all this. Kind of like I’m feeling about this thread now. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-abortionists-are-you-also-against-the-use-of-contraception/587474/76 "2011-07-11T04:10:22Z")
> [@](#): > > Ah yes, in a couple of hundred years I’ll be as evolved and enlightened as you are. Um, no actually. Women have had to put up with a couple of hundred years of being on the wrong side of that majority. (I’d bet the house you count yourself a patriotic believer in democracy!) ‘When your side, has had to suck it up, for as long, we’ll talk’, was actually what I was saying. Less sanctimony, more comprehension might help. ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-abortionists-are-you-also-against-the-use-of-contraception/587474/77 "2011-07-11T04:24:39Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > Um, no actually. Women have had to put up with a couple of hundred years of being on the wrong side of that majority. (I’d bet the house you count yourself a patriotic believer in democracy!) ‘When your side, has had to suck it up, for as long, we’ll talk’, was actually what I was saying. > > Less sanctimony, more comprehension might help. OK, I see. I take that back then. I guess I didn’t understand what you were saying. My mistake. At any rate I’m bowing out. Like I said earlier this is supposed to be a thread about pro-life and contraception, not about whether abortion is right or wrong. Also, I’ve said all I have to say about abortion in general. Any future posts will just be me repeating myself, and I always quit GD threads when I start getting repetitive. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-abortionists-are-you-also-against-the-use-of-contraception/587474/78 "2011-07-11T11:45:10Z")
> [@Lissla\_Lissar](#): > > Doing just fine, thanks for your concern. Noticing my cervical signs takes five seconds a day, about as long as it would take me to take the Pill every morning. > > Whether or not you think it’s a good idea, the RCC is pretty big on self-control- we don’t think that if you abstain for a couple of days because you don’t want to get pregnant, then you’re going to diiiieee and it’s terribly unnatural. It isn’t as easy as just getting it on if you feel like it, but it’s not incredibly burdensome, in general. > > Speaking from personal experience, my own and a whole bunch of my NFPing friends. If this were so there would not be so many priests etc. committing adultry, or child abuse. Nor would there be so much poverty in Catholic majority countries! It may work fine for a couple with a low sex drive but not for the one’s who have a different drive. One size does not fit all! So all couples should not have to use a method that doesn’t work for them! For you it is fine for others that I know it was not! There are many RC people in Jail who apparently couldn’t practice self control, and many abused children who are the result of poverty that get into crime. I know from family members who have had mental break downs trying to follow the RCC teachings one a priest, and two in the convent! ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-abortionists-are-you-also-against-the-use-of-contraception/587474/79 "2011-07-11T11:53:26Z")
> [@Nobody](#): > > OK, I see. I take that back then. I guess I didn’t understand what you were saying. My mistake. > > At any rate I’m bowing out. Like I said earlier this is supposed to be a thread about pro-life and contraception, not about whether abortion is right or wrong. > > Also, I’ve said all I have to say about abortion in general. Any future posts will just be me repeating myself, and I always quit GD threads when I start getting repetitive. A person can be pro-choice and pro-life, they are also interested in the life of the already born as well. Many people who call them selves pro-life are really just pro-birth, and forget about the women they would force to think or do as they believe. I have yet to hear any so called pro-life person willing to sacrifice their families needs to support a child from birth to adulthood. A few dollars in a collection box once in awhile is not support! ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-abortionists-are-you-also-against-the-use-of-contraception/587474/80 "2011-07-11T13:07:23Z")
> [@Nobody](#): > > Pretend for a moment that you believe that an unborn child’s life is just as valuable as your own. Sorry, can’t. Insufficient self-loathing, I suppose. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-abortionists-are-you-also-against-the-use-of-contraception/587474.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-abortionists-are-you-also-against-the-use-of-contraception/587474.md?page=5)