# Anti-achievement at its finest: Acceptance by 20 colleges called "obnoxious" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 13, 2018, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-achievement-at-its-finest-acceptance-by-20-colleges-called-obnoxious/812353 "2018-04-13T16:51:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2018, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-achievement-at-its-finest-acceptance-by-20-colleges-called-obnoxious/812353/201 "2018-04-21T18:18:58Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > And yet you have no problem with excoriating the two men and lauding the actions of the manager, even tho there is no evidence that they were refusing to leave or rude. You’ve never once considered that she made the call and misrepresented the situation. You’re an asshole. Show me where I ‘excoriated’ the two men, or where I lauded the actions of the manager. Or admit that you either lied or have your head so far up your own ass you have to roll down the street. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2018, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-achievement-at-its-finest-acceptance-by-20-colleges-called-obnoxious/812353/202 "2018-04-21T19:21:44Z")
A couple of points based on a few things brought up about the Starbucks incident: The store is in a largely white area of Philly and mainly serves white people. Is there any account of the men being belligerent or hostile other than the manager’s? AIUI, the videos and the white customers accounts say they were reasonable and non-confrontational. [At least one employee claims the manager does not like black people.](http://www.phillytrib.com/news/former-starbucks-employee-says-manager-was-racist/article_f7f7f923-8c39-59cb-8982-c54fb5859856.html) ETA: The policy at every Starbucks and similar chains/ indy coffee shops I’ve been to is to be very lenient towards loiterers. If the store had a strict non-loitering policy, ok, but that’s not my experience with urban coffee shops. Hell I’ve been in sit down restaurants where I’ve told the staff that I was waiting on people and would order when we were all present and was told that was fine. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2018, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-achievement-at-its-finest-acceptance-by-20-colleges-called-obnoxious/812353/203 "2018-04-23T15:50:51Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Show me where I ‘excoriated’ the two men, or where I lauded the actions of the manager. Or admit that you either lied or have your head so far up your own ass you have to roll down the street. I would still like you to point out any links that show that the manager asked the men to leave before the police were called. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2018, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-achievement-at-its-finest-acceptance-by-20-colleges-called-obnoxious/812353/204 "2018-04-23T16:09:09Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > ETA: The policy at every Starbucks and similar chains/ indy coffee shops I’ve been to is to be very lenient towards loiterers. If the store had a strict non-loitering policy, ok, but that’s not my experience with urban coffee shops. I’ve used Starbucks as a meeting space with clients for about 13 years now, and, while I generally do try to buy at least a coffee, there have been many times nobody bought anything and we’ve never been hustled out, asked to order, asked to leave. That’s actually part of the reason I continue to patronize Starbucks, that they’re lenient about that sort of stuff. (Or at least the ones around here are.) ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2018, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-achievement-at-its-finest-acceptance-by-20-colleges-called-obnoxious/812353/205 "2018-04-23T17:03:25Z")
The manager called the cops just 2 minutes after the scary black guys arrived. That’s not enough time to politely ask for their orders. Maybe, for a Canadian, politeness is so ingrained an assumption that it didn’t occur to **Sam** that it might not have been present? ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2018, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-achievement-at-its-finest-acceptance-by-20-colleges-called-obnoxious/812353/206 "2018-04-24T00:20:03Z")
We’re going to need an omnibus thread soon: [Golf club apologizes for calling police on black women members](https://apnews.com/95e02521b2884a2abd1470fd9b6fecbb) ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2018, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-achievement-at-its-finest-acceptance-by-20-colleges-called-obnoxious/812353/207 "2018-04-24T06:51:11Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > All of the available evidence shows these two men being polite. > > And yet the police chief of Philadelphia characterized them as rude and combative (and his own officers as polite). When the video evidence contradicted him, he apologized. > > So we already have one known, confirmed case of these men being mischaracterized as rude and combative. I’m inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt, absent any other evidence, in the case of them vs. manager because of this. Also because the only evidence you have to bolster the manger’s side os the manager’s own words and the fact that a genuine police officer wrote them down. > > It’s amazing that you take the side of a person who was fired for having terrible judgement when it comes to running a business (and who remains anonymous) claiming great harm to that person, but the men who were actually arrested, which all objective evidence available shows to have been polite and do-nothing wrong, you choose to dis-favor and dis-believe. > > And then, THEN, you are shocked if anyone suggests a racist tone or attitude to your posts. > > I won’t call you racist, but I will call you an asshole. Take away the skin color of everyone involved, and you still choose to believe the self-serving manager, because you’re an asshole. You left off the bit where the manager, having refused to give them access to the bathroom because they hadn’t bought anything, gave access to the bathroom without question to a white guy who walked in and hadn’t bought in either. But as **Sam** says - who knows what really happened? The two men could have threatened to rape and murder everyone in the store. They could have shat on the floor. They could have pulled out an AR-15 and then eaten it before the police arrived. There’s no evidence for any of this but I’m sure we (or at least he) could continue to manufacture hypotheticals to justify what happened. I mean, if I as a white guy had shat on the floor of a Starbucks I would have been arrested too, therefore it wasn’t racism. There are lots of more ambiguous incidents to choose from. To pick the one that has so much compelling evidence of racial discrimination is weird. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2018, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-achievement-at-its-finest-acceptance-by-20-colleges-called-obnoxious/812353/208 "2018-04-24T12:09:05Z")
[quote=“Fotheringay-Phipps, post:150, topic:812353”] …[True story that just happened yesterday. My wife teaches in a high school that two of my daughters also attend. Shortly before the kids were about to be let out, a couple of young (20-something) black guys wandered in with pants down low etc…/QUOTE] A couple of things: A) What does “pants down low etc.” mean? I’m guessing you mean they had the whole negroid package going? and B) I don’t believe your story. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2018, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-achievement-at-its-finest-acceptance-by-20-colleges-called-obnoxious/812353/209 "2018-04-24T12:21:56Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > We’re going to need an omnibus thread soon: > > [Golf club apologizes for calling police on black women members](https://apnews.com/95e02521b2884a2abd1470fd9b6fecbb) Another incident (reported by the individual involved on Facebook so apply appropriate filters): a black police officer searching a crime scene between two houses for bullet casings in the dark, gets the police called on him because “a black man in police clothes” was “shining a flashlight into people’s windows”. If true, even black officers aren’t immune to this shit. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2018, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-achievement-at-its-finest-acceptance-by-20-colleges-called-obnoxious/812353/210 "2018-04-24T12:34:27Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > I’m guessing you mean they had the whole negroid package going? Their preferred term is “ghetto”. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2018, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-achievement-at-its-finest-acceptance-by-20-colleges-called-obnoxious/812353/211 "2018-04-24T14:16:13Z")
Ghetto is the term they use when they think they are being politically correct. When no one’s looking, I suspect he uses another term. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2018, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-achievement-at-its-finest-acceptance-by-20-colleges-called-obnoxious/812353/212 "2018-04-24T14:53:08Z")
Well you guys are certainly valiant fighters in the war against racism. So you can feel good about yourselves over that, if nothing else. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2018, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-achievement-at-its-finest-acceptance-by-20-colleges-called-obnoxious/812353/213 "2018-04-24T15:29:46Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Well you guys are certainly valiant fighters in the war against racism. So you can feel good about yourselves over that, if nothing else. Better than the alternative, certainly. ---
**Author:** ![Icarus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icarus/32/72_2.png) [@Icarus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icarus)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2018, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-achievement-at-its-finest-acceptance-by-20-colleges-called-obnoxious/812353/214 "2018-04-24T15:38:14Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Well you guys are certainly valiant fighters in the war against racism. So you can feel good about yourselves over that, if nothing else. Sides have been picked. Where do you find yourself standing? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2018, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-achievement-at-its-finest-acceptance-by-20-colleges-called-obnoxious/812353/215 "2018-04-24T15:46:28Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > So you can feel good about yourselves over that, if nothing else. How do \*you \*feel about _your_self? ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2018, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-achievement-at-its-finest-acceptance-by-20-colleges-called-obnoxious/812353/216 "2018-04-24T16:00:29Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > How do \*you \*feel about _your_self? I suspect he feels fine. Most supercilious smarmy racist dipshit trolls do. ---
**Author:** ![Paranoid\_Randroid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/paranoid_randroid/32/18_2.png) [@Paranoid\_Randroid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paranoid_Randroid)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2018, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-achievement-at-its-finest-acceptance-by-20-colleges-called-obnoxious/812353/217 "2018-04-24T16:09:41Z")
> [@They're Back! Return of the music spammers!](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theyre-back-return-of-the-music-spammers/108648/4): > > ]What does “pants down low etc.” mean? I’m guessing you mean they had the whole negroid package going? Well, how are they going to show off their negroid packages without their pants down? ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2018, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-achievement-at-its-finest-acceptance-by-20-colleges-called-obnoxious/812353/218 "2018-04-24T16:19:48Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Just as black people in a historically and persistently racist society always have to be prepared to encounter manifestations of racism, white people in a historically and persistently racist society always have to be prepared to encounter suspicion that they are influenced by racism. > > Being such a sensitive snowflake that encountering any such suspicion immediately plunges you into resentment and enmity does not speak well for your status as a functioning adult. That construction doesn’t work well IMO. If applied evenly it means African Americans also shouldn’t be ‘sensitive snowflakes’ to perception of racism that might not really exist, in a particular case (no reasonable person denies either that racism exists in some cases, nor that unfair or all-too-convenient accusations of racism exist in some cases). I doubt you’d really want to apply it both ways. Not that applying it both ways would be categorically outrageous, again people perceiving themselves the target of racism definitely can over react, in some cases. I just doubt the kind of people who say you ‘just have to live with it’ about being unfairly accused of being a racist would typically say you also might have to just live with being the target of actual racism. How about you shouldn’t have to live with either one. At least as a goal. I didn’t follow this particular act of the Race Morality Play in the details like evidence the manager treated other people differently or acted wrongly in general. Which she (it seems it was she) might have, and that might have been consciously or unconsciously influenced by race. Or might not have, AFAIK. Just to say, something becoming a social media cause celebre means zero. There should be no default assumption that social media reactions to things are reasonable or proportional. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2018, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-achievement-at-its-finest-acceptance-by-20-colleges-called-obnoxious/812353/219 "2018-04-24T17:06:23Z")
> [@Corry\_El](#): > > That construction doesn’t work well IMO. If applied evenly it means African Americans also shouldn’t be ‘sensitive snowflakes’ to perception of racism that might not really exist, in a particular case (no reasonable person denies either that racism exists in some cases, nor that unfair or all-too-convenient accusations of racism exist in some cases). > > I doubt you’d really want to apply it both ways. Not that applying it both ways would be categorically outrageous, again people perceiving themselves the target of racism definitely can over react, in some cases. I just doubt the kind of people who say you ‘just have to live with it’ about being unfairly accused of being a racist would typically say you also might have to just live with being the target of actual racism. > > How about you shouldn’t have to live with either one. At least as a goal. > > I didn’t follow this particular act of the Race Morality Play in the details like evidence the manager treated other people differently or acted wrongly in general. Which she (it seems it was she) might have, and that might have been consciously or unconsciously influenced by race. Or might not have, AFAIK. Just to say, something becoming a social media cause celebre means zero. There should be no default assumption that social media reactions to things are reasonable or proportional. Your contention is that people should just accept having the police called on them and be taken off to jail, because to do otherwise might make someone feel uncomfortable about confronting the possibility that they have unconscious racial biases. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2018, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-achievement-at-its-finest-acceptance-by-20-colleges-called-obnoxious/812353/220 "2018-04-24T17:16:48Z")
Yeah, but’s it is white people with the uncomfortable feelings. That’s way more important than black people being uncomfortable by being taken to jail simply for sitting in a coffee shop. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-achievement-at-its-finest-acceptance-by-20-colleges-called-obnoxious/812353.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-achievement-at-its-finest-acceptance-by-20-colleges-called-obnoxious/812353.md?page=12)