# Anti-achievement at its finest: Acceptance by 20 colleges called "obnoxious" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 13, 2018, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-achievement-at-its-finest-acceptance-by-20-colleges-called-obnoxious/812353 "2018-04-13T16:51:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-achievement-at-its-finest-acceptance-by-20-colleges-called-obnoxious/812353/101 "2018-04-19T13:48:11Z")
Whatever weird nonsense you’re going on about, Damuri, I’m not interested in participating. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-achievement-at-its-finest-acceptance-by-20-colleges-called-obnoxious/812353/102 "2018-04-19T15:40:26Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Will you promise not to keep looking for reasons to be offended? FWIW, I don’t think it was about being offended. I think it was an attempt to suppress (any focus on) the notion that black people might have advantages in certain circumstances by spinning it as being the flip side of an offensive racist position. Aka “playing the race card”. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-achievement-at-its-finest-acceptance-by-20-colleges-called-obnoxious/812353/103 "2018-04-19T15:46:39Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > FWIW, I don’t think it was about being offended. > > I think it was an attempt to suppress (any focus on) the notion that black people might have advantages in certain circumstances by spinning it as being the flip side of an offensive racist position. Aka “playing the race card”. Or, you know, an honest disagreement and/or misunderstanding. But why assume that the one you disagree with might be decent and honest? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-achievement-at-its-finest-acceptance-by-20-colleges-called-obnoxious/812353/104 "2018-04-19T15:49:45Z")
I don’t see any rational way that you could have made that inference, as outlined in prior posts. But I asked you in a straightforward manner and you stomped off in a huff (post #96), which strengthens my original suspicion. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-achievement-at-its-finest-acceptance-by-20-colleges-called-obnoxious/812353/105 "2018-04-19T15:51:11Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I don’t see any rational way that you could have made that inference, as outlined in prior posts. But I asked you in a straightforward manner and you stomped off in a huff (post #96), which strengthens my original suspicion. Ahh, well if you don’t see any rational way, then that settles it. Couldn’t be a different way of seeing things, or a simple misreading/mistake, or any of a million other things. Always best to assume dishonesty and malevolence in one’s opponents. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-achievement-at-its-finest-acceptance-by-20-colleges-called-obnoxious/812353/106 "2018-04-19T15:54:02Z")
If it was “a simple misreading/mistake” you could always just say so instead of implying that you have some unspecified (and thus unrefutable) basis for attributing racist positions to Shodan. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-achievement-at-its-finest-acceptance-by-20-colleges-called-obnoxious/812353/107 "2018-04-19T15:57:30Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > If it was “a simple misreading/mistake” you could always just say so instead of implying that you have some unspecified (and thus unrefutable) basis for attributing racist positions to Shodan. It might well have been. I implied that as a possibility (that I might be mistaken) in one of my first responses to a challenge of that post, and when Shodan later clarified that he thought my reading was incorrect, I withdrew the point. And where did I attribute “racist positions” to anyone? I didn’t characterize anything as racist. I’m very, very careful using that word, and I deliberately only use it when I think it’s extremely clear. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-achievement-at-its-finest-acceptance-by-20-colleges-called-obnoxious/812353/108 "2018-04-19T16:02:18Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > He is offended that you think that being black helped him get into all 20 colleges. You are implying that he wouldn’t have gotten accepted at all 20 colleges if he weren’t black. > > He is further offended that black people who get into good schools have to deal with the stigma associated with AA even if they didn’t need the AA to get in. While it is an assumption that is made in the eyes of some that part of the reason that he got in is because the colleges wanted to accept minority students, it’s also an assumption that he indicated so on his application. Do we know that he put his skin color on the application? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-achievement-at-its-finest-acceptance-by-20-colleges-called-obnoxious/812353/109 "2018-04-19T16:04:34Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It might well have been. I implied that as a possibility (that I might be mistaken) in one of my first responses to a challenge of that post, and when Shodan later clarified that he thought my reading was incorrect, I withdrew the point. You consistently implied that the offensive position followed from Shodan’s post, and put the burden on him to clarify that this is not what he meant. > [@](#): > > And where did I attribute “racist positions” to anyone? I didn’t characterize anything as racist. I’m very, very careful using that word, and I deliberately only use it when I think it’s extremely clear. I don’t think you used the term, but it’s pretty obvious that the notion that “successful black people didn’t earn their position” is an offensive racist position. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-achievement-at-its-finest-acceptance-by-20-colleges-called-obnoxious/812353/110 "2018-04-19T16:05:50Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > While it is an assumption that is made in the eyes of some that part of the reason that he got in is because the colleges wanted to accept minority students, it’s also an assumption that he indicated so on his application. > > Do we know that he put his skin color on the application? Why wouldn’t he? Is there any disadvantage to doing that? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-achievement-at-its-finest-acceptance-by-20-colleges-called-obnoxious/812353/111 "2018-04-19T16:13:26Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > You consistently implied that the offensive position followed from Shodan’s post, and put the burden on him to clarify that this is not what he meant. What does “consistently” mean in this instance? It didn’t take much at all for me to back off. After I was challenged, I said that I’d be happy to retract the view if I was incorrect. It’s true that I did put the burden on him. This might have been an overzealous mistake based on my memory of past conversations with him about AA. If it hurt your feelings, **Shodan** , I apologize. Also, I’ll try not to do it again because there was no point to it. If I had been a little more careful, I wouldn’t have jumped the gun and I could have just straight up asked “are you saying that successful black people don’t earn their position?” or something like that. > [@](#): > > I don’t think you used the term, but it’s pretty obvious that the notion that “successful black people didn’t earn their position” is an offensive racist position. If I was certain racism was involved, I would have said so. Or even if I was just pretty confident. I wasn’t, so I didn’t use the term. But I still might have gone overboard a bit, and if so, I regret it and hopefully will learn from it. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-achievement-at-its-finest-acceptance-by-20-colleges-called-obnoxious/812353/112 "2018-04-19T16:15:14Z")
OK. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-achievement-at-its-finest-acceptance-by-20-colleges-called-obnoxious/812353/113 "2018-04-19T16:16:39Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > OK. Well don’t get all huffy and stomp off… 😉 ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-achievement-at-its-finest-acceptance-by-20-colleges-called-obnoxious/812353/114 "2018-04-19T16:16:47Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Why wouldn’t he? Is there any disadvantage to doing that? There are several disadvantages to doing that. First, I don’t even know if there is a space for that on the application. It’s been over a decade since I filled one out, but I don’t remember it asking about my skin color. It seems there was another form that I filled out separately that was more of a survey that asked, but I think that was after I was accepted, not before. Second, if he is worried about being discriminated against in the application process, he may be concerned that there are those who would consider his skin color to be a mark against him. And, finally, the other reasons I can think of off the top of my head is because he may not have wanted any “special treatment” in the first place. He may have felt that his grades were good enough to get him into whatever colleges he was applying to, and not wanted the “help” from an admissions board who considered his skin color as either a negative or a positive. He may have wanted to be just judged on merit. So, and I don’t know the answer to this, do we know that he put his skin color down on the application, or is that just an assumption? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-achievement-at-its-finest-acceptance-by-20-colleges-called-obnoxious/812353/115 "2018-04-19T16:18:05Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Ahh, well if you don’t see any rational way, then that settles it. Couldn’t be a different way of seeing things, or a simple misreading/mistake, or any of a million other things. > > Always best to assume dishonesty and malevolence in one’s opponents. Since we are assuming honesty and decency on the part of our opponents, can you explain how you interpreted ‘here is a high-achieving black kid who got into every school he applied to’ as furthering the myth that high-achieving blacks didn’t earn it? Keeping in mind that you didn’t ask if that is what I meant - you stated definitely that what I posted furthered the myth. Was that definite assertion based on the assumption that you expect from others? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-achievement-at-its-finest-acceptance-by-20-colleges-called-obnoxious/812353/116 "2018-04-19T16:19:46Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Since we are assuming honesty and decency on the part of our opponents, can you explain how you interpreted ‘here is a high-achieving black kid who got into every school he applied to’ as furthering the myth that high-achieving blacks didn’t earn it? > > Keeping in mind that you didn’t ask if that is what I meant - you stated definitely that what I posted furthered the myth. > > Was that definite assertion based on the assumption that you expect from others? > > Regards, > Shodan I apologize for doing so, and doubly so if it hurt your feelings, and I will try to learn from my mistake and try not to do it again. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-achievement-at-its-finest-acceptance-by-20-colleges-called-obnoxious/812353/117 "2018-04-19T17:22:51Z")
Doggonit - now you went and ruined a perfectly good huff! And I had the Pitting half written already. :mad: Regards, Shodan PS - “My feelings”? If we worried about feelings in the Pit, there would be about five threads a year. And what fun would that be? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-achievement-at-its-finest-acceptance-by-20-colleges-called-obnoxious/812353/118 "2018-04-19T17:32:28Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Doggonit - now you went and ruined a perfectly good huff! And I had the Pitting half written already. > > :mad: > > Regards, > Shodan > > PS - “My feelings”? If we worried about feelings in the Pit, there would be about five threads a year. And what fun would that be? Nobody expects a sincere apology! In [my one and only pit thread about you](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=825472), you admitted to being wrong as well, which inspired me to return the sentiment, especially as it appears more and more clear that I did make an error. PS – And sorry for the loss of your huff! ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-achievement-at-its-finest-acceptance-by-20-colleges-called-obnoxious/812353/119 "2018-04-19T17:45:10Z")
That’s all right - I can stomp off in a minute and a huff. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-achievement-at-its-finest-acceptance-by-20-colleges-called-obnoxious/812353/120 "2018-04-19T20:27:03Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > Doesn’t matter. White trash need local news too. Sure is a good thing no one on the left in this thread is a racist, because otherwise that would look pretty damned racist. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-achievement-at-its-finest-acceptance-by-20-colleges-called-obnoxious/812353.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-achievement-at-its-finest-acceptance-by-20-colleges-called-obnoxious/812353.md?page=7)