# Anti-Austerity Party Wins in Greece: Will Greece Leave the Euro? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 26, 2015, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-austerity-party-wins-in-greece-will-greece-leave-the-euro/710909 "2015-01-26T05:14:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2015, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-austerity-party-wins-in-greece-will-greece-leave-the-euro/710909/61 "2015-01-27T05:05:01Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Then why are you trying to shout down their best chance for saving more lives? I’m not; austerity saves no one and helps no one. > [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Let’s say, for example, that you are dealing with a deadbeat dad. You can either argue that he should go to jail, or that he should stay free. If he goes to jail, the mom will have to work and the five children will be cramped into a single room, with poor light, insufficient nourishment, and they’ll grow up stunted, with poor health, and a shortened lifespan. If the dad stays with the family, he will spend all the money he can, gambling, getting drunk, etc. He won’t let the wife work, and when he catches her saving money so that she can keep the family alive, he beats her. He molests his own children, and will probably end up killing at least one (if not more) of them. The children who survive will grow up stunted, with poor health, a shortened lifespan, unable to do much physical labor due to poorly healed bone fractures, and suffering PTSD. > > Now you could make the argument that dad is a larger earner than mom, so he’s doing a better job of growing the economy. But since the size and growth of the economy isn’t relevant to the situation, making that argument is just being obtuse and making a bad situation worse. That scenario has nothing at all to do with austerity. It’s a way of demonizing the Greeks so you can justify your stated desire for them to starve. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2015, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-austerity-party-wins-in-greece-will-greece-leave-the-euro/710909/62 "2015-01-27T05:14:53Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > A lot of ideas sound great on paper. Except this piss-shit excuse for a rebuttal. Rebuttal of what exactly? My post was a simple commentary on the quality of _your_ post. Nothing else. As if it matters, I think the widespread adoption of the Euro by so many disparate economies was a mistake. I also think Greece is a hot mess and it’s going to get worse before it gets better, but that at this point the worst thing they could do would be to dump the Euro. They don’t have significant natural resources to exploit and if they fully repudiate the debt, they won’t have the ability to borrow which leaves them kind of fucked unless they quickly figure out how to live without any imports. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2015, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-austerity-party-wins-in-greece-will-greece-leave-the-euro/710909/63 "2015-01-27T05:30:06Z")
Well then, we agree completely. The EU was a well-intentioned liberal experiment and we are witnessing the strains that may break it apart. ---
**Author:** ![Kenm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bc79bd/32.png) [@Kenm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kenm)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2015, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-austerity-party-wins-in-greece-will-greece-leave-the-euro/710909/64 "2015-01-27T05:58:05Z")
Germany’s Angela Merkel wants Greece to pay up no matter the cost, not only in cash but in unemployment, hardship, hunger and despair. Because it’s [**not her own country**](http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/alexis-tsipras-s-win-in-greece-a-major-test-for-eurozone-don-murray-1.2931478). > [@](#): > > . . .No country has suffered from austerity as much as Greece. Its economy has contracted by 25 per cent, its unemployment rate is 25 per cent. Youth unemployment is nearly 60 per cent, a third of the country lives below the poverty line. Its debt stands at 175 per cent of its national output. . . > > . . . Better, many economists and some politicians are now saying, to slash Greece’s debt – write off a huge chunk as worthless paper. After all, they say, that’s what the Allies did with half of West Germany’s debt in 1953. > > And the result was the “Wirtschaftswunder,” Germany’s economic miracle as it rebounded from the ashes. . . . And the ashes, it should be added, were caused by a hell of a lot more than overspending. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2015, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-austerity-party-wins-in-greece-will-greece-leave-the-euro/710909/65 "2015-01-27T06:01:21Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I’m not; austerity saves no one and helps no one. > > That scenario has nothing at all to do with austerity. It’s a way of demonizing the Greeks so you can justify your stated desire for them to starve. While that’s not true - you’ll have a hard time quoting the place where I stated a desire for people to starve, or finding the place where I demonize the Greeks - I would say that it’s better to minimize starvation, than to exacerbate it out of a disregard for the options on the table. What options do you think are on the table? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2015, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-austerity-party-wins-in-greece-will-greece-leave-the-euro/710909/66 "2015-01-27T06:07:03Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > Good point. Suppose Greece decides to implement austerity by laying off schoolteachers and increasing class sizes to compensate, eager to save the money that they would have paid in salary. Now, you have a bunch of out-of-work schoolteachers who are no longer paying taxes but are now costing the government in welfare payouts. Government paid X to teachers, and got Y back in taxes. Now the teachers are unemployed, getting Z in welfare payments. If (X-Y)\>Z, then the government expenditures are less, wouldn’t you say? ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2015, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-austerity-party-wins-in-greece-will-greece-leave-the-euro/710909/67 "2015-01-27T06:39:43Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > That scenario has nothing at all to do with austerity. It’s a way of demonizing the Greeks so you can justify your stated desire for them to starve. I usually enjoy your shtick, but at this level it’s just sad. First you display an utter ignorance of economics, and disregard for common-sense, by stating that the only reason for austerity (which remember is just the state reducing their spending), is sadism. But now anyone who disagrees with you _also_ wants to see the children suffer. Perhaps we are all in cahoots with the lizard people? ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2015, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-austerity-party-wins-in-greece-will-greece-leave-the-euro/710909/68 "2015-01-27T07:04:57Z")
> [@Kenm](#): > > And the ashes, it should be added, were caused by a hell of a lot more than overspending. That’s kind of the point. Germany racked up a lot of debt because they were devastated by war. There was no reason to believe that they would be devastated by war again in the near future, or that forgiving the debt would make a difference to the probability of that occurring. In contrast, Greece’s debts are the result of financial mismanagement, corruption, dishonesty and and complacency. We have seen little evidence that Greece has stopped being all those things. More importantly, if the debts racked up because of those traits is forgiven, it makes it much more likely that they will be continued in the future. It’s a sad fact of human nature that if people are not hurt by their behaviour, they seldom change. This is one of the big arguments against forgiving the debt. By doing so, you create a situation where there is no consequence to the Greek people and politicians for the last 30 years of mismanagement. Since there are no consequences, it is almost inevitable that the cycle will start over again, and in 50 years the debts will need to be written off again. ---
**Author:** ![Kenm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bc79bd/32.png) [@Kenm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kenm)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2015, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-austerity-party-wins-in-greece-will-greece-leave-the-euro/710909/69 "2015-01-27T07:43:04Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > It’s a sad fact of human nature that if people are not hurt by their behaviour, they seldom change. If the U.S. can owe $18,087,425,445,178.53 so Cadillac trucks can keep rolling off the line, I fail to see the problem. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2015, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-austerity-party-wins-in-greece-will-greece-leave-the-euro/710909/70 "2015-01-27T08:18:15Z")
> [@Kenm](#): > > If the U.S. can owe $18,087,425,445,178.53 so Cadillac trucks can keep rolling off the line, I fail to see the problem. If no I have no idea what point you think you’re making. ---
**Author:** ![Kenm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bc79bd/32.png) [@Kenm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kenm)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2015, 9:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-austerity-party-wins-in-greece-will-greece-leave-the-euro/710909/71 "2015-01-27T09:33:15Z")
The U.S. (and other countries) is far beyond any means of repaying the ever-increasing debt it owes. But that hasn’t stopped it and the others from pontificating that Greece’s comparatively paltry debt is an unforgivable sin, along with demands that it must be repaid at any cost to the population _to teach them a lesson._ Let them eat cake, they splutter from their Cadillac _trucks_ or equally obscene equivalents made possible thanks to their country’s mounting debt that would take until the heat death of the universe to pay off, not that there is any intention to do so, while Greece faces a wholly contrived artifical deadline that is, literally, a killer. ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a8b319/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_wuzzy)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2015, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-austerity-party-wins-in-greece-will-greece-leave-the-euro/710909/72 "2015-01-27T09:53:57Z")
> [@Kenm](#): > > The U.S. (and other countries) is far beyond any means of repaying the ever-increasing debt it owes. But that hasn’t stopped it and the others from pontificating that Greece’s comparatively paltry debt is an unforgivable sin, along with demands that it must be repaid at any cost to the population _to teach them a lesson._ > > Let them eat cake, they splutter from their Cadillac _trucks_ or equally obscene equivalents made possible thanks to their country’s mounting debt that would take until the heat death of the universe to pay off, not that there is any intention to do so, while Greece faces a wholly contrived artifical deadline that is, literally, a killer. Fair enough point that some countries criticizing Greece are themselves under mountains of debt. I would disagree though that Greece are facing an artificial deadline. Greece is facing a deadline agreed with it’s creditors. It is the market that is demanding repayment. The market’s lack of confidence in Greece is everything. It is not unnatural or artificial. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2015, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-austerity-party-wins-in-greece-will-greece-leave-the-euro/710909/73 "2015-01-27T10:08:18Z")
> [@Kenm](#): > > The U.S. (and other countries) is far beyond any means of repaying the ever-increasing debt it owes. But that hasn’t stopped it and the others from pontificating that Greece’s comparatively paltry debt is an unforgivable sin, along with demands that it must be repaid at any cost to the population _to teach them a lesson._ > > Let them eat cake, they splutter from their Cadillac _trucks_ or equally obscene equivalents made possible thanks to their country’s mounting debt that would take until the heat death of the universe to pay off, not that there is any intention to do so, while Greece faces a wholly contrived artifical deadline that is, literally, a killer. What does that have to do with anything that I posted? ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2015, 10:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-austerity-party-wins-in-greece-will-greece-leave-the-euro/710909/74 "2015-01-27T10:12:59Z")
> [@Kenm](#): > > The U.S. (and other countries) is far beyond any means of repaying the ever-increasing debt it owes. But that hasn’t stopped it and the others from pontificating that Greece’s comparatively paltry debt is an unforgivable sin, along with demands that it must be repaid at any cost to the population _to teach them a lesson._ The USA has a debt load to GDP of around 80%. Greece is at around 175%. Greece also has a very low fertily rate, meaning the debt will fall on fewer and fewer working age young people. The younger generation is inheriting an indebted bankrupt nation. It is not fair to expect them to carry the yoke of such a suffocating debt on their shoulders. They’re going to need a massive write down of something 50%. I think most people agree to that, but that the underlying structural reforms have to be in place first. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2015, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-austerity-party-wins-in-greece-will-greece-leave-the-euro/710909/75 "2015-01-27T14:01:30Z")
[QUOTE=Kenm] The U.S. (and other countries) is far beyond any means of repaying the ever-increasing debt it owes. [/QUOTE] This is like comparing the couple that lives next door who is quietly going about paying their bills every month, maintaining their mortgage and their car loans and keeping the lights on with the guy down the block who has to file for bankruptcy because he has no money to pay any of his debts. The two people aren’t in the same boat. I’m unsure why you brought the US into this as it really hurts whatever point you were trying to make. > [@](#): > > But that hasn’t stopped it and the others from pontificating that Greece’s comparatively paltry debt is an unforgivable sin, along with demands that it must be repaid at any cost to the population to teach them a lesson. So, because the couple paying their debts and bills regularly have debt that disqualifies them from being able to talk about the guy who is going bankrupt because he spent far beyond his means? And the banks don’t care about teaching lessons…they just want the money they are owed. > [@](#): > > Let them eat cake, they splutter from their Cadillac trucks or equally obscene equivalents made possible thanks to their country’s mounting debt that would take until the heat death of the universe to pay off, not that there is any intention to do so, while Greece faces a wholly contrived artifical deadline that is, literally, a killer. You really don’t know anything about either the Greek situation specifically or how international debt actually works, do you? 😛 You just wanted to slam the US for some reason, even though we are peripheral at best in the whole Greek/EU drama. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2015, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-austerity-party-wins-in-greece-will-greece-leave-the-euro/710909/76 "2015-01-27T15:22:16Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > That scenario has nothing at all to do with austerity. It’s a way of demonizing the Greeks so you can justify your stated desire for them to starve. Nobody here has expressed a desire for anyone to starve to death. Calm down. Perhaps you could stop making silly, hysterical claims and suggest how the Greek fiscal problem could be fixed? What are you ideas? ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2015, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-austerity-party-wins-in-greece-will-greece-leave-the-euro/710909/77 "2015-01-27T15:30:45Z")
To be fair, austerity HAS led to an increase in Greek children (at least) starving: > **[More Children in Greece Are Going Hungry (Published 2013)](https://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/18/world/europe/more-children-in-greece-start-to-go-hungry.html?hp&_r=1&)** > > Greece’s economic free fall is reshaping the lives of families with children, many of whom arrive at school hungry, underfed or even malnourished. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2015, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-austerity-party-wins-in-greece-will-greece-leave-the-euro/710909/78 "2015-01-27T16:14:56Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > To be fair, austerity HAS led to an increase in Greek children (at least) starving: > > [http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/18/world/europe/more-children-in-greece-start-to-go-hungry.html?hp&\_r=1&](http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/18/world/europe/more-children-in-greece-start-to-go-hungry.html?hp&_r=1&) Austerity led to this, but it’s complicated how, and it wasn’t austerity itself that caused all this havoc. You have to kind of look at the events as they unfolded in Greece to see how it got to where it is today. You had general strikes and protests against various measures the Greek government tried to take early on, you had the government trying to compromise between striking workers and the reality of the economic situation and waffling on what they would do (hell, you had at least one referendum voted on by the Greek people on whether they should default on the debt and leave the Euro, even after the Greek government had already agreed to the terms of one of several of the EU bailouts). All of this has caused confidence in their bonds to be lowered again and again, further exacerbating an already horrible situation. Lack of confidence and lowering of ratings meant that no one was buying Greek bonds (which were set to ‘junk’ status the last time I looked). So, while technically true that ‘austerity HAS led to an increase in Greek children’ “starving” (actually, being food insecure, which is bad enough), it glosses over cause and effect and also the actions of the Greek people and government who resisted austerity measures, changed directions and made a bad situation worse…and worse…and worse. I’m not saying that austerity is the right way to go here (I certainly think that at this point the EU needs to reconsider this policy wrt Greece as it’s going to take very large injections of capital on their part to salvage anything, IMHO anyway), but it has only caused this situation in that it was the match that lit the fuse, not the explosive itself. The Greek people and their government were both the root cause and their reaction, especially early on to ‘austerity’ is the primary reason they are where they are now. ---
**Author:** ![Kenm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bc79bd/32.png) [@Kenm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kenm)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2015, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-austerity-party-wins-in-greece-will-greece-leave-the-euro/710909/79 "2015-01-27T16:41:06Z")
> [@XT](#): > > This is like comparing the couple that lives next door who is quietly going about paying their bills every month, maintaining their mortgage and their car loans and keeping the lights on with the guy down the block who has to file for bankruptcy because he has no money to pay any of his debts. The two people aren’t in the same boat. They’re not in the same boat because the couple next door quietly going about paying their bills can do so because no matter how much they owe, even if it’s more dollars than there are electrons, they can borrow more to pay them. The guy down the street isn’t allowed to. He has to file for bankruptcy if he and his children haven’t starved to death first. > [@](#): > > I’m unsure why you brought the US into this as it really hurts whatever point you were trying to make. . . . > > You really don’t know anything about either the Greek situation specifically or how international debt actually works, do you? You just wanted to slam the US for some reason, even though we are peripheral at best in the whole Greek/EU drama. I used U.S.debt numbers because no other country’s are so high. It’s not as though every other western country isn’t doing the same. But if the highest numbers had been Botswana’s, I would have used those. [http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/18/world/europe/more-children-in-greece-start-to-go-hungry.html?pagewanted=all&\_r=0](http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/18/world/europe/more-children-in-greece-start-to-go-hungry.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0) [http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/04/opinion/sunday/a-weary-greece-considers-its-options.html](http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/04/opinion/sunday/a-weary-greece-considers-its-options.html) [http://www.bread.org/what-we-do/resources/newsletter/october-2013/a-new-occupation-in-greece.html](http://www.bread.org/what-we-do/resources/newsletter/october-2013/a-new-occupation-in-greece.html) > **[This Is the Reality of Austerity: Greek Children Are Starving](https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/04/this-is-the-reality-of-austerity-greek-children-are-starving/275105/)** > > Force-feeding Greece with budget cuts and tax increases gets a predictable, and tragic, result > **[Starving Greeks queue for food in their thousands as debt-wracked country...](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2161651/Starving-Greeks-food-thousands-politicians-finally-form-coalition-government--long-last.html)** > > Desperate Greeks lined up for free food handouts yesterday as a government was finally formed. The alliance vowed to renegotiate crippling bailout terms in order to ease the hardship faced by citizens. [http://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/2013/03/15/cases-of-greek-starving-children-increase/](http://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/2013/03/15/cases-of-greek-starving-children-increase/) > [@Blake](#): > > It’s a sad fact of human nature that if people are not hurt by their behaviour, they seldom change. Let them eat cake. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2015, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-austerity-party-wins-in-greece-will-greece-leave-the-euro/710909/80 "2015-01-27T17:15:49Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I’m not; austerity saves no one and helps no one. > > That scenario has nothing at all to do with austerity. It’s a way of demonizing the Greeks so you can justify your stated desire for them to starve. That’s enough, Der Trihs. I’m giving you a warning for insults, here. While SageRat has indicated that ‘maybe’ such things will happen, you seem to be indicating that he actively desires them out of some sort of blood lust or somesuch. Knock it off. Calm down and come back to the argument without such over-the-top rhetoric. It accomplishes nothing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-austerity-party-wins-in-greece-will-greece-leave-the-euro/710909.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-austerity-party-wins-in-greece-will-greece-leave-the-euro/710909.md?page=5)