# Anti-choicers slip soft fetus toys into kids' candy bags at ND state fair **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 25, 2013, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-choicers-slip-soft-fetus-toys-into-kids-candy-bags-at-nd-state-fair/664505 "2013-07-25T17:30:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Enola\_Gay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ab097/32.png) [@Enola\_Gay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enola_Gay)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-choicers-slip-soft-fetus-toys-into-kids-candy-bags-at-nd-state-fair/664505/201 "2013-07-31T14:02:37Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > It’s all very simple. People who like abortion, don’t like that other people hate it. > Pro-choice IS pro-abortion, always. Let me try another angle to get through to you, because you are totally missing the boat on the definition of pro-choice: I cannot fathom a circumstance under which I personally would abort a baby. If I were raped and became pregnant, I would carry the pregnancy to term & adopt out the baby. I am, however, PRO-CHOICE. The choice I would make for myself is to NOT abort, under any circumstances. However, I strongly believe in the FREEDOM OF CHOICE for all women, so if e.g. **miss elizabeth** finds herself with an unwanted pregnancy and she decides to terminate, that is HER business and there should be no law that prevents her from making that choice. So your premise that pro-choice = pro-abortion, always couldn’t be more wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-choicers-slip-soft-fetus-toys-into-kids-candy-bags-at-nd-state-fair/664505/202 "2013-07-31T14:15:41Z")
> [@Enola\_Gay](#): > > Let me try another angle to get through to you, because you are totally missing the boat on the definition of pro-choice: Because he’s never heard this before, so this will be totally new information and he will adjust his statements accordingly… ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-choicers-slip-soft-fetus-toys-into-kids-candy-bags-at-nd-state-fair/664505/203 "2013-07-31T15:46:03Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > No, that link goes to “400 Bad Request.” There’s a **page,** labeled “PRO CHOICE VIOLENCE,” but it displays no actual content I can see. It’s not the best-loading webpage out there. [quote=“kaylasdad99, post:199, topic:664505”] Actually, it has content; it takes a bit of time to load, though. > [@](#): > > I’m not going to bother perusing the contents, however; my evenings off work are too precious, and there are literally THOUSANDS of free pornography images I haven’t viewed yet. I’ll content myself with a blanket condemnation of pro-choice violence, wherever it occurs. Thanks > [@](#): > > I’ll also point out that its existence, however widespread (or otherwise) it may be, does not make the pro-choice position the less ethical one. Per se, no, I agree. > [@](#): > > **Ají de Gallina** , a question: are you arguing that no woman ever makes a free and conscious _choice_ to bear a child? It’s my understanding that the pro-choice position implicitly supports _that_ choice as well. No. My argument is that being pro-choice on something of such leviathanically large ethical proportions can only be reached by accepting it as something good. I’ll repeat. nobody here would accept someone saying he/she is pro-choice on slavery, rape, or spousal abuse. > [@WhyNot](#): > > It’s\*\*\* A\*\*\* problem. It’s not the only problem. OK. > [@Enola\_Gay](#): > > Let me try another angle to get through to you, because you are totally missing the boat on the definition of pro-choice: > > I cannot fathom a circumstance under which I personally would abort a baby. If I were raped and became pregnant, I would carry the pregnancy to term & adopt out the baby. I am, however, PRO-CHOICE. The choice I would make for myself is to NOT abort, under any circumstances. > > However, I strongly believe in the FREEDOM OF CHOICE for all women, so if e.g. **miss elizabeth** finds herself with an unwanted pregnancy and she decides to terminate, that is HER business and there should be no law that prevents her from making that choice. > > So your premise that pro-choice = pro-abortion, always couldn’t be more wrong. Let’s see. Would you go for this? \*I cannot fathom a circumstance under which I personally would beat the crap out of my wife. If I were unhappy, I would get out of the marriage. I am, however, PRO-CHOICE. The choice I would make for myself is to NOT beat the crap out of my wife, under any circumstances. However, I strongly believe in the FREEDOM OF CHOICE for all men, so if e.g. **Marley** finds herself with an urge to beat the crap out of his wife and he decides to act on that urge, that is HIS business and there should be no law that prevents her from making that choice. So your premise that pro-choice = pro-beating-the-crap-out-of-one’s-wife , always couldn’t be more wrong.\* Abortion is worse that beating your wife. > [@Marley23](#): > > Because he’s never heard this before, so this will be totally new information and he will adjust his statements accordingly… So insightful. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-choicers-slip-soft-fetus-toys-into-kids-candy-bags-at-nd-state-fair/664505/204 "2013-07-31T15:50:31Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > So insightful. Am I wrong? Has nobody ever explained that point to you before? I bet I’d find plenty of examples if I looked for other times you discussed abortion here. ---
**Author:** ![Girlundone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/919ad9/32.png) [@Girlundone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Girlundone)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-choicers-slip-soft-fetus-toys-into-kids-candy-bags-at-nd-state-fair/664505/205 "2013-07-31T16:03:55Z")
“Born people” is one of the stupidest things I’ve ever heard. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-choicers-slip-soft-fetus-toys-into-kids-candy-bags-at-nd-state-fair/664505/206 "2013-07-31T16:48:38Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > No. My argument is that being pro-choice on something of such leviathanically large ethical proportions can only be reached by accepting it as something good. And **that** is nonsense, even accepting your estimate of proportions, which is also nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-choicers-slip-soft-fetus-toys-into-kids-candy-bags-at-nd-state-fair/664505/207 "2013-07-31T16:50:53Z")
> [@Girlundone](#): > > “Born people” is one of the stupidest things I’ve ever heard. “Preborn” tops it. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-choicers-slip-soft-fetus-toys-into-kids-candy-bags-at-nd-state-fair/664505/208 "2013-07-31T16:55:28Z")
> [@Girlundone](#): > > “Born people” is one of the stupidest things I’ve ever heard. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > “Preborn” tops it. Wait until the reincarnation crowd starts using “Pre-owned”. ---
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-choicers-slip-soft-fetus-toys-into-kids-candy-bags-at-nd-state-fair/664505/209 "2013-07-31T17:09:34Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Yuor complaint was that they weren’t accurate and my questions was if accuracy was the problem. Inaccuracy is one of my problems with this, yes. The doll shown is **substantially** more baby-like than a real fetus at that stage of development. If the defense of this is that is isn’t necessarily about abortion-- it’s educational, then that excuse is completely undermined by using inaccurate models. Why are they handing out false information to children? How is that ok? > [@](#): > > I support scientifically accurate fetus toys that would discourage people from having and/or promoting abortions. > I also support not quite scientifically accurate fetus toys that would discourage people from having and/or promoting abortions. Yes, exactly what I’ve said twice now. Anti-abortion activists are liars and they will lie in service of their agenda. The only thing they care about is forcing women to carry unwanted fetuses to term. If they can find factual information to do that, they will use it. If they can’t (and they frequently can’t, because science is not on their side) they will just make it up. You are one of them- a liar who lies unashamedly. There’s some stuff in that book you lunatics like that says you’re not supposed to lie, but I guess you ignore that part. Interestingly, it says nothing about abortion. But woman-hating liars can’t be bothered with the \*actual contents \*of the Bible. After all, it’s not really about any of that, is it? ---
**Author:** ![Girlundone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/919ad9/32.png) [@Girlundone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Girlundone)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-choicers-slip-soft-fetus-toys-into-kids-candy-bags-at-nd-state-fair/664505/210 "2013-07-31T17:18:00Z")
What are gametes? “Potentially born”? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-choicers-slip-soft-fetus-toys-into-kids-candy-bags-at-nd-state-fair/664505/211 "2013-07-31T17:24:00Z")
> [@Girlundone](#): > > What are gametes? “Potentially born”? “A zygote is a gamete’s way of making other gametes. This may be the purpose of the Universe.” – Lazarus Long ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-choicers-slip-soft-fetus-toys-into-kids-candy-bags-at-nd-state-fair/664505/212 "2013-07-31T17:26:23Z")
> [@Enola\_Gay](#): > > Let me try another angle to get through to you, because you are totally missing the boat on the definition of pro-choice: > > I cannot fathom a circumstance under which I personally would abort a baby. If I were raped and became pregnant, I would carry the pregnancy to term & adopt out the baby. I am, however, PRO-CHOICE. The choice I would make for myself is to NOT abort, under any circumstances. > > However, I strongly believe in the FREEDOM OF CHOICE for all women, so if e.g. **miss elizabeth** finds herself with an unwanted pregnancy and she decides to terminate, that is HER business and there should be no law that prevents her from making that choice. > > So your premise that pro-choice = pro-abortion, always couldn’t be more wrong. > [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > OK. > > Let’s see. > Would you go for this? > > \*I cannot fathom a circumstance under which I personally would beat the crap out of my wife. If I were unhappy, I would get out of the marriage. I am, however, PRO-CHOICE. The choice I would make for myself is to NOT beat the crap out of my wife, under any circumstances. > > However, I strongly believe in the FREEDOM OF CHOICE for all men, so if e.g. **Marley** finds herself with an urge to beat the crap out of his wife and he decides to act on that urge, that is HIS business and there should be no law that prevents her from making that choice. > > So your premise that pro-choice = pro-beating-the-crap-out-of-one’s-wife , always couldn’t be more wrong.\* Analogy FAIL. **Marley** does not get to make the choice on behalf of his wife about whether to participate in the activity. The putative **Mrs. Marley** is a discrete, sentient, autonomous individual, who has the right to choose (or decline) to be in such an arrangement (although I would sincerely hope that they both remember the safe word). OTOH, **miss elizabeth** ’s putative fetus is NOT a discrete, sentient, autonomous individual, and is not technically a “participant” in the activity, any more than your overgrown toenails are “participants” in the activity of a pedicure. Should **miss elizabeth** make the choice to carry the putative pregnancy to term (and notify you of that choice), it might then be coherent for you to refer to the fetus as a discrete individual (if not yet sentient or autonomous) and therefore a “participant” in certain activities. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-choicers-slip-soft-fetus-toys-into-kids-candy-bags-at-nd-state-fair/664505/213 "2013-07-31T17:35:55Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > The putative **Mrs. Marley** is a discrete, sentient, autonomous individual, who has the right to choose (or decline) to be in such an arrangement (although I would sincerely hope that they both remember the safe word). No she’s not. She’s a woman. We’re talking pro-life here. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-choicers-slip-soft-fetus-toys-into-kids-candy-bags-at-nd-state-fair/664505/214 "2013-07-31T17:45:04Z")
**snerk** ---
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-choicers-slip-soft-fetus-toys-into-kids-candy-bags-at-nd-state-fair/664505/215 "2013-07-31T18:00:10Z")
Just in case anyone wonders, I don’t mind if ya’ll use me as a stand in for “woman who wants abortion”. I’ve had two abortions, and two children, and I’m ashamed of none of it. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-choicers-slip-soft-fetus-toys-into-kids-candy-bags-at-nd-state-fair/664505/216 "2013-07-31T18:27:44Z")
Cripes, I leave this thread for a little while and come back to find discussions of sadomasochistic activities by a moderator and his spouse. :eek: The next thing we’ll probably see is an organized attempt to have pro-lifers hand out soft squishy fetus toys in bags of Halloween candy. Then satanists will get into the act, slipping inverted pentagrams into Xmas goody bags, PETA will hand out literature attacking exploitation of poultry at Easter egg hunts…hey, it’s all harmless education, big effing deal. The little turds have to grow up sooner or later. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Girlundone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/919ad9/32.png) [@Girlundone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Girlundone)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-choicers-slip-soft-fetus-toys-into-kids-candy-bags-at-nd-state-fair/664505/217 "2013-07-31T18:37:05Z")
I also had an abortion many years ago. Rest assured, it was nothing like the picture painted by those who oppose abortion rights. It was just like any other medical procedure I’ve had over the course of my life, except less physically painful than many. Prior to the procedure I was asked whether I was sure this is what I wanted to do, was I doing it of my own free will and not being coerced by anyone else, and did I know my other options. I have never regretted my decision, nor felt guilty for any moral wrongdoing. In fact, it was the most responsible choice given my specific circumstances. There was no blood flying around the room, no piles of limbs and heads, no dirty back alleys. Many women women older than I cannot say that though, since they were legally denied the option of a safe medical procedure. Many didn’t live to tell about it anyway. Thankfully today that’s not true. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-choicers-slip-soft-fetus-toys-into-kids-candy-bags-at-nd-state-fair/664505/218 "2013-07-31T18:43:07Z")
> [@Girlundone](#): > > What are gametes? “Potentially born”? [Every sperm is sacred](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUspLVStPbk). ---
**Author:** ![Girlundone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/919ad9/32.png) [@Girlundone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Girlundone)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-choicers-slip-soft-fetus-toys-into-kids-candy-bags-at-nd-state-fair/664505/219 "2013-07-31T18:56:47Z")
Ike Witt, I’ve always loved that one! Monty Python never gets old. I laugh every. single. time. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-choicers-slip-soft-fetus-toys-into-kids-candy-bags-at-nd-state-fair/664505/220 "2013-07-31T19:09:18Z")
Apropos of nothing, have you heard about the new inexpensive no-frills abortion kit? A hungry rat on a string! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-choicers-slip-soft-fetus-toys-into-kids-candy-bags-at-nd-state-fair/664505.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-choicers-slip-soft-fetus-toys-into-kids-candy-bags-at-nd-state-fair/664505.md?page=12)