# Anti-choicers slip soft fetus toys into kids' candy bags at ND state fair **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 25, 2013, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-choicers-slip-soft-fetus-toys-into-kids-candy-bags-at-nd-state-fair/664505 "2013-07-25T17:30:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2013, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-choicers-slip-soft-fetus-toys-into-kids-candy-bags-at-nd-state-fair/664505/301 "2013-08-03T22:21:32Z")
Perhaps a symbiont. ---
**Author:** ![Girlundone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/919ad9/32.png) [@Girlundone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Girlundone)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2013, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-choicers-slip-soft-fetus-toys-into-kids-candy-bags-at-nd-state-fair/664505/302 "2013-08-03T22:46:43Z")
Well I never used the used the word parasite, but I did use the word host. I wasn’t thinking of “host” in the strictly biological sense, but rather host as in “one that furnishes facilities and resources for a function or event” ie, I am the hostess for the fetal party going on in my uterus. As far as I understand a fetus cannot survive on its own, outside of a female body. So how can a fetus be describes as autonomous? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2013, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-choicers-slip-soft-fetus-toys-into-kids-candy-bags-at-nd-state-fair/664505/303 "2013-08-03T23:03:09Z")
A fetus is only “autonomous” in that it’s own genetics direct its growth, not the mother’s genetics. “Host” is a perfectly good word for us to use in everyday common English. In super-strict scientific jargon, it isn’t quite right. Same trouble with “symbiont.” Not quite right, if one is gonna be a scientific jargon pedant. Of course, only assholes play the pedant game. O.J. Simpson murdered Ron Goldman, and that is that. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2013, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-choicers-slip-soft-fetus-toys-into-kids-candy-bags-at-nd-state-fair/664505/304 "2013-08-03T23:42:59Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > O.J. Simpson murdered Ron Goldman, and that is that. Good to know that we agree on _something_. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-choicers-slip-soft-fetus-toys-into-kids-candy-bags-at-nd-state-fair/664505/305 "2013-08-04T03:23:08Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > I responded to “Rules, laws, etc are created by society, not by one person insisting that their way is the One Right Way.” That is wrong. They (rules), more often than not start with one person. Perhaps the _idea_ which becomes a law/rule starts with one person, the the rule/law itself doesn’t. Not in this country. > [@](#): > > You said “Abortion doesn’t “kill someone” in the eyes of the majority” and I responded to that. And your own cite still says you are wrong. > [@](#): > > How is it stupid to compare “men have no say in abortion simply for thei being men and not bearing the risks of pregnancy” with “non-soldiers should not tell soldiers what to do if they don’t bear the risks of fighting”? > > Do post-histerectomy women get a say? Post menopause? Tube-tied ones? Sure. None of those negate the possibility of a pregnancy happening, unless the the post-hysterectomy woman also had her ovaries and tubes removed. > [@](#): > > The fun world of facts. You haven’t managed to come up with a fact that says that a clump of cells is a human. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-choicers-slip-soft-fetus-toys-into-kids-candy-bags-at-nd-state-fair/664505/306 "2013-08-04T03:51:33Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > And should all the people who used in vitro fertilization be compelled to carry those “seperate DNA cells” to term? [Davis v. Davis](http://embryo.asu.edu/pages/davis-v-davis-1992) ruled NO In vitro creates a big ethical problem. I would not compell implantation, but would forbid destruction, in the general reality of now. > [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > You know **Aji de Gallina** , simply saying something is a fact, and repeating that “facts can be bitches” doesn’t actually mean you’ve stated any facts. You haven’t. If sayin that helps you sleep better, then: OK. > [@](#): > > And I would really like an explanation of how having an abortion is different than refusing to donate organs. Please, enlighten me. I have no explanation that you would accept given the limitations of an anonymous internet forum and your own scientific limitations. (Hint: direct killing is wrong) > [@Trinopus](#): > > It turns my stomach to have to agree with our correspondent, but, yeah, a fetus isn’t a parasite, largely by definition (so, this is merely arguing the dictionary) but also because parasitism is generally harmful, whereas pregnancy is necessary for the survival of the species. It’s not a dictionary battle, it’s scientific terminology. > [@](#): > > In moral terms, it is obviously much like parasitism. There is an unwanted intruder, an infection, a freeloader, sucking down your blood and returning nothing. I absolutely support the right of anyone to apply the necessary medical cure to rid themselves of this intolerable personal invasion. Are wanted children not parasites, then? Is an 8-month fetus a parasite? Just after delivery but still with the chord? > [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Perhaps a symbiont. Again, you need two different species. > [@Girlundone](#): > > Well I never used the used the word parasite, but I did use the word host. I wasn’t thinking of “host” in the strictly biological sense, but rather host as in “one that furnishes facilities and resources for a function or event” ie, I am the hostess for the fetal party going on in my uterus. > As far as I understand a fetus cannot survive on its own, outside of a female body. So how can a fetus be describes as autonomous? That meanig of host would be appropriate. Viability is being pushed back all the time and an artificial uterus is not completely science fiction. [QUOTE] > [@curlcoat](#): > > Perhaps the _idea_ which becomes a law/rule starts with one person, the the rule/law itself doesn’t. Not in this country . That’s exactly my point. > [@](#): > > And your own cite still says you are wrong. Could you point to where? > [@](#): > > Sure. None of those negate the possibility of a pregnancy happening, unless the the post-hysterectomy woman also had her ovaries and tubes removed. OK, no uterus, no ovaries. Can she? > [@](#): > > You haven’t managed to come up with a fact that says that a clump of cells is a human. self-regulation, distinct DNA. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-choicers-slip-soft-fetus-toys-into-kids-candy-bags-at-nd-state-fair/664505/307 "2013-08-04T05:25:45Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > I would not compell implantation, but would forbid destruction, **in the general reality of now**. If that euphemism ever takes hold, just shoot me. > [@](#): > > Is an 8-month fetus a parasite? > Just after delivery but still with the chord? It’s an umbilical _cord_, not a chord. A minor point, but a key one. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-choicers-slip-soft-fetus-toys-into-kids-candy-bags-at-nd-state-fair/664505/308 "2013-08-04T06:24:17Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > . . . It’s not a dictionary battle, it’s scientific terminology. . . . Same thing. Scientific terminology is not, itself, subject to scientific rules. There is no experiment you can perform that will determine whether or not a fetus is a parasite, since the word itself can be defined either way. At this point in time, the formal definition precludes a fetus from being a parasite. This is not a scientific rule, but merely a convention of terminology. > [@](#): > > Are wanted children not parasites, then? Is an 8-month fetus a parasite? > Just after delivery but still with the chord? . . . Once a child is born, his parasitic tendencies are much more easily controlled. He can simply be given away. The 8-month old fetus cannot be prevented from the parasitic behavior; it is an inescapable part of its nature. (No one, either on the pro-choice or the pro-life side, favors the inducing of premature birth as a means of ridding a woman of an unwanted fetus.) As long as blood is flowing from the mother’s body, through the placenta and the cord, then the parasitic behavior continues. Once the cord is cut, that behavior is over. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-choicers-slip-soft-fetus-toys-into-kids-candy-bags-at-nd-state-fair/664505/309 "2013-08-04T12:38:30Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Again, you need two different species. . Humor. It is a difficult concept. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2013, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-choicers-slip-soft-fetus-toys-into-kids-candy-bags-at-nd-state-fair/664505/310 "2013-08-05T04:13:32Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Could you point to where? I already did, when you first posted the cite. > [@](#): > > OK, no uterus, no ovaries. > Can she? Can she what? I’m not going to be able to follow what you are talking about if you keep cutting posts into tiny pieces. > [@](#): > > self-regulation, distinct DNA. Self-regulation doesn’t apply to a fetus and distinct DNA doesn’t a human make. Your problem is that you are taking facts and using them to support your preconceived beliefs, rather than doing it the right way. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2013, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-choicers-slip-soft-fetus-toys-into-kids-candy-bags-at-nd-state-fair/664505/311 "2013-08-05T05:46:12Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > . . . Self-regulation doesn’t apply to a fetus . . . I would have said it does. The fetal DNA is governing fetal growth. It doesn’t have any feedback capability (that I know of; maybe someone can set me straight here?) with regard to the mother’s body. i.e., if the fetus is terribly short of calcium, it doesn’t have any way to signal the mother’s body to send more. The placental barrier is a pretty exclusive “firewall.” I may be wrong, and I may be mistaking your point. (I am not siding with Magica de Spell or whatever.) ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2013, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-choicers-slip-soft-fetus-toys-into-kids-candy-bags-at-nd-state-fair/664505/312 "2013-08-05T13:29:37Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > The placental barrier is a pretty exclusive “firewall.” Try telling that to the child born drug-addicted, with fetal alcohol syndrome, or no arms because their mother took Thalidomide, or women who ended up infertile cause their mothers took DES to carry them to term. ETA: And an anti-abortion protestor actually told me there’s a bill trying to make “post-birth abortions” illegal. Talk about your wacky terminology (and a great oxymoron). ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2013, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-choicers-slip-soft-fetus-toys-into-kids-candy-bags-at-nd-state-fair/664505/313 "2013-08-05T14:07:34Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > In vitro creates a big ethical problem. > I would not compell implantation, but would forbid destruction, in the general reality of now. So if fetuses were removed by C-section and then frozen, it would be all right. > [@Trinopus](#): > > Once a child is born, his parasitic tendencies are much more easily controlled. He can simply be given away. Of all the ridiculous statements made by anyone, this really gets me on my soap box. “Have the baby and simply give it away.” I can think of nothing crueler than forcing a woman to give birth and hand the baby over to strangers like a sack of dirty laundry. The woman suffers and the child suffers. Adoption is NOT a magical la-la land where everything goes perfect. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-choicers-slip-soft-fetus-toys-into-kids-candy-bags-at-nd-state-fair/664505/314 "2013-08-06T02:58:24Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > I would have said it does. The fetal DNA is governing fetal growth. > > It doesn’t have any feedback capability (that I know of; maybe someone can set me straight here?) with regard to the mother’s body. i.e., if the fetus is terribly short of calcium, it doesn’t have any way to signal the mother’s body to send more. The placental barrier is a pretty exclusive “firewall.” > > I may be wrong, and I may be mistaking your point. (I am not siding with Magica de Spell or whatever.) Yes, you’re wrong. The feedback mechanisms are poorly understood, but probably work in two ways: hormones and receptors in the capillaries of the placenta. While the mother and baby blood shouldn’t mix, hormones, nutrients and wastes carry information from one circulatory system to the other. The fetus gets washed in hormones that are made by the mother’s body which govern growth and development, and quite likely even things such as gender expression and sexual orientation later in life. Epigenetics starts even before conception, and stresors in the mother’s environment influence not just natal development, but obesity, nurturing behaviors and personality of the person to be. Now, go apologize to your mother for minimizing her body’s hard work making you. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-choicers-slip-soft-fetus-toys-into-kids-candy-bags-at-nd-state-fair/664505/315 "2013-08-06T03:15:43Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > Try telling that to the child born drug-addicted, with fetal alcohol syndrome, or no arms because their mother took Thalidomide . . . This was in the context of regulation of fetal growth, not in the context of toxins or drug interactions. And it turns out I was wrong (see below) but not in the sense of your points. (They are valid points: horrible things do pass the placental barrier.) > [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > . . . Of all the ridiculous statements made by anyone, this really gets me on my soap box. “Have the baby and simply give it away.” I can think of nothing crueler than forcing a woman to give birth and hand the baby over to strangers like a sack of dirty laundry. The woman suffers and the child suffers. Adoption is NOT a magical la-la land where everything goes perfect. I agree! I am pro-choice. Adoption is an alternative. It is not the alternative, and it is not the ideal solution. It is a choice. It will be right for some, and not right for others. Please believe me, I do not imagine that the possibility of adoption in any way makes the pro-life viewpoint valid. > [@WhyNot](#): > > Yes, you’re wrong. The feedback mechanisms are poorly understood, but probably work in two ways: hormones and receptors in the capillaries of the placenta. While the mother and baby blood shouldn’t mix, hormones, nutrients and wastes carry information from one circulatory system to the other. > > The fetus gets washed in hormones that are made by the mother’s body which govern growth and development, and quite likely even things such as gender expression and sexual orientation later in life. Epigenetics starts even before conception, and stresors in the mother’s environment influence not just natal development, but obesity, nurturing behaviors and personality of the person to be. Now, go apologize to your mother for minimizing her body’s hard work making you. 😉 Grin! My mother, alas, is long beyond my reach, but I will definitely honor her, in my mind, for doing a lot of hard work indeed, both pre and post natal. (I’m also glad she chose to stop smoking during pregnancy!) Thank’ee for setting me straight. This was something I had not known. I had thought the embryonic/fetal development was entirely self-regulated. (Leaving aside such very obvious things as maternal starvation, or, as noted above, alcohol use, smoking, drug use, etc.) The duty of the boards has been upheld, and the world’s ignorance (and mine) pushed back one notch. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2013, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-choicers-slip-soft-fetus-toys-into-kids-candy-bags-at-nd-state-fair/664505/316 "2013-08-12T13:20:15Z")
I got an anti-abortion tract this weekend that said “Six days after conception, the baby attaches himself to the wall of his mother’s womb…” I cannot begin to tell you what is wrong with that statement. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2013, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-choicers-slip-soft-fetus-toys-into-kids-candy-bags-at-nd-state-fair/664505/317 "2013-08-12T13:28:38Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > I got an anti-abortion tract this weekend that said “Six days after conception, the baby attaches himself to the wall of his mother’s womb…” > > I cannot begin to tell you what is wrong with that statement. I have visions of an anatomically correct fetus the size of a BB bouncing around in delight. “Oh hell, it’s Day Six, gotta attach.” ---
**Author:** ![Long\_Time\_First\_Time](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@Long\_Time\_First\_Time](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Long_Time_First_Time)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2013, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-choicers-slip-soft-fetus-toys-into-kids-candy-bags-at-nd-state-fair/664505/318 "2013-08-13T17:48:52Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Pro-choice here. > > I don’t see what the big deal is. Sounds relatively harmless as far as both the pro-choice and pro-life movements go. There’s plenty of wackjob extremists on both sides. > > . Honest question - can you give me an example of a pro-choice wackjob extremist? Perhaps the Chinese government? The are accused of forcing abortions on unwilling mothers, but I can’t think of anything a pro-choice person has said in the past 20 years that was more extreme than “my body, my decision.” ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2013, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-choicers-slip-soft-fetus-toys-into-kids-candy-bags-at-nd-state-fair/664505/319 "2013-08-13T18:45:26Z")
> [@Long\_Time\_First\_Time](#): > > Honest question - can you give me an example of a pro-choice wackjob extremist? Perhaps the Chinese government? The are accused of forcing abortions on unwilling mothers, but I can’t think of anything a pro-choice person has said in the past 20 years that was more extreme than “my body, my decision.” A lot of pro-choicers are **shrill,** but few are crazy. BTW, if you haven’t already, see [_Citizen Ruth_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizen_ruth) – skewers both sides hilariously. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2013, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-choicers-slip-soft-fetus-toys-into-kids-candy-bags-at-nd-state-fair/664505/320 "2013-08-13T19:58:34Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I have visions of an anatomically correct fetus the size of a BB bouncing around in delight. “Oh hell, it’s Day Six, gotta attach.” You cannot image some of the stuff in those tracts. It makes a logician’s head spin worse than Linda Blair’s! Check out [this](http://www.cwalac.org/article_786.shtml) site. > [@](#): > > Seventy-five percent of all abortions are performed on girls between the ages of 12-25, and because of existing loopholes in current state laws pertaining to interstate abortion, the number of girls transported across state lines for coerced abortions without their parents knowledge is unknown. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-choicers-slip-soft-fetus-toys-into-kids-candy-bags-at-nd-state-fair/664505.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-choicers-slip-soft-fetus-toys-into-kids-candy-bags-at-nd-state-fair/664505.md?page=17)