# Anti-choicers slip soft fetus toys into kids' candy bags at ND state fair **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 25, 2013, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-choicers-slip-soft-fetus-toys-into-kids-candy-bags-at-nd-state-fair/664505 "2013-07-25T17:30:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![aNewLeaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@aNewLeaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aNewLeaf)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2013, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-choicers-slip-soft-fetus-toys-into-kids-candy-bags-at-nd-state-fair/664505/321 "2013-08-13T20:05:34Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > A lot of pro-choicers are **shrill,** but few are crazy. Anybody who opposes abortion but still supports the death penalty is thinking un-sanely, imho. And there are plenty I’ve met who believe complete lies about the situation, though that’s more about research than sanity. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2013, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-choicers-slip-soft-fetus-toys-into-kids-candy-bags-at-nd-state-fair/664505/322 "2013-08-13T21:19:34Z")
I wanna soft fetus toy for my birthday, but Mrs. J. is probably going to get me socks again. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-choicers-slip-soft-fetus-toys-into-kids-candy-bags-at-nd-state-fair/664505/323 "2013-08-14T20:43:35Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > 46 chromosomes of distinct DNA _or such a configuration that renders it a member of Homo sapiens_are a necessary but not sufficient component of personhood. > … > A stem cell line in a Petri dish? No. > Your second scenario? Yes. But what the the rational for what makes the stem cell not a person, and the ova adjusted one a person. Both are clearly human so it must be something else. The physical differences are minor, so it must be something other than pure science going on here that makes you willing to discard the first but not the second. I draw the line at what really makes us matter as individuals, namely our sentience. > [@](#): > > “minds and spirits”…is that science? > “I have chosen” means that you’ll force your beliefs, gotcha, facts be damned. No minds and spirits aren’t science, the abortion debate is about morality and that is outside the realms of science. What is the science that says slavery is bad? In terms of the start of person hood there aren’t facts there are just opinions. In terms of forcing beliefs it seems clear that the Pro-life side is on the side of forcing everyone to believe as they do than the pro-choice side. > [@](#): > > Maybe you think that a permanent high concentration of melanin renders you unhuman. > Or being born on a Tuesday? I have direct empathy with a person born on Tuesday or a black person. I know that they have thought processes, sentience, and would experience being killed. Destroying that would be morally wrong. A blob cells with no nerves or consciousness reacting purely through stimulus/response? not so much. > [@](#): > > Any scientifi paper on the whole brain=human thingy? Or is it another of your unprovalbe personal beliefs? It is as provable/unprovable as your belief that personhood includes a fertilized egg. You acknowledge that human life is not sufficient by your rejection of the stem cell lines. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-choicers-slip-soft-fetus-toys-into-kids-candy-bags-at-nd-state-fair/664505/324 "2013-08-15T16:48:46Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > I got an anti-abortion tract this weekend that said “Six days after conception, the baby attaches himself to the wall of his mother’s womb…” > > I cannot begin to tell you what is wrong with that statement. Why can’t you? Is it because the mocked statement is basically true? [From wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Implantation_(human_embryo)) (my bolding) "In humans (as in all other mammals, except for monotremes), implantation is the very early stage of pregnancy at which the **embryo adheres to the wall of the uterus"** “The trophoblasts adhere by **penetrating the endometrium** , with protrusions of trophoblast cells.” Implantation is an embryo-controlled process. It’s not the endometrium catching it, it’s the embryo clinging. Of course, the endometrium is well prepared for this. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-choicers-slip-soft-fetus-toys-into-kids-candy-bags-at-nd-state-fair/664505/325 "2013-08-15T20:42:49Z")
I have trouble with the words “baby” (at six weeks, it’s not even an fetus), “mother” (a mother is a woman who has given birth), and especially “his” (and in all anti-abortion tracts I’ve read, the masculine pronoun is always used). ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-choicers-slip-soft-fetus-toys-into-kids-candy-bags-at-nd-state-fair/664505/326 "2013-08-15T21:02:17Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Implantation is an embryo-controlled process. It’s not the endometrium catching it, it’s the embryo clinging. > Of course, the endometrium is well prepared for this. Bullocks. Half the blastocyst (it’s not even an embryo yet, much less a baby), the outer half, is what will become the placenta and amniotic sac. The embryo-to-be cells are on the inside, and never touch the endometrium. So, no, it’s not “an embryo-controlled process”. It’s a placenta-cells-to-be controlled process, which doesn’t work without the right mix of hormones from the mother’s body present (that is, too little maternal progesterone, and that sucker’s coming out with the menstrual fluid, fertilized or not). [Fetal development: MedlinePlus Medical Encyclopedia](http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/002398.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Longshanks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Longshanks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Longshanks)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-choicers-slip-soft-fetus-toys-into-kids-candy-bags-at-nd-state-fair/664505/327 "2013-08-15T22:58:06Z")
Wouldn’t it be a great world if everybody stopped trying to espouse their beliefs onto everybody else and just let each individual make their own choices in their own life. ---
**Author:** ![Cyros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a698b9/32.png) [@Cyros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyros)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-choicers-slip-soft-fetus-toys-into-kids-candy-bags-at-nd-state-fair/664505/328 "2013-08-15T23:20:08Z")
> [@Longshanks](#): > > Wouldn’t it be a great world if everybody stopped trying to espouse their beliefs onto everybody else and just let each individual make their own choices in their own life. Wonderful! Well, until I choose to cover your lawn with soft fetus toys (at least you hope they’re toys. hehehehehe). ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-choicers-slip-soft-fetus-toys-into-kids-candy-bags-at-nd-state-fair/664505/329 "2013-08-16T01:47:29Z")
> [@Slithy\_Tove](#): > > I’ve noticed the trend on older people, including my parents, to shift from pro-choice to pro-life as they put their child-bearing years behind them. They stop identifying with the situation of being burdened with kids and become judgemental. As the Baby Boomers enter this demographic I see trouble. I am actually on the declining edge of the Boomer wave. Most of my female friends close to my age are in or exiting menopause, and many of those a few years younger than me are not seriously considering (more) parenthood (even being over forty when conceiving is pretty risky, and all the Boomers view 40 as a fond memory). Yet, the shift in opinion is not obvious. The bulk of the Boomer generation will not be having more children, this has been the case for several years, we should see pro-choice opinions declining. This does not seem to be the case, AFAICT. ---
**Author:** ![Count\_Blucher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Count\_Blucher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Count_Blucher)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-choicers-slip-soft-fetus-toys-into-kids-candy-bags-at-nd-state-fair/664505/330 "2013-08-16T12:47:23Z")
> [@Longshanks](#): > > Wouldn’t it be a great world if everybody stopped trying to espouse their beliefs onto everybody else and just let each individual make their own choices in their own life. _virtual beer_ ---
**Author:** ![aNewLeaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@aNewLeaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aNewLeaf)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-choicers-slip-soft-fetus-toys-into-kids-candy-bags-at-nd-state-fair/664505/331 "2013-08-16T13:17:30Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > I have trouble with … and especially “his” (and in all anti-abortion tracts I’ve read, the masculine pronoun is always used). That’s correct and proper English, even if it seems dated. and of course, any fetus could well be the Second Coming of Jesus. ---
**Author:** ![Count\_Blucher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Count\_Blucher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Count_Blucher)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-choicers-slip-soft-fetus-toys-into-kids-candy-bags-at-nd-state-fair/664505/332 "2013-08-16T13:22:11Z")
> [@aNewLeaf](#): > > and of course, any fetus could well be the Second Coming of Jesus. …Bastard can walk on water but he can’t wear a condom…!? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-choicers-slip-soft-fetus-toys-into-kids-candy-bags-at-nd-state-fair/664505/333 "2013-08-16T13:54:26Z")
> [@aNewLeaf](#): > > Anybody who opposes abortion but still supports the death penalty is thinking un-sanely, imho. > > And there are plenty I’ve met who believe complete lies about the situation, though that’s more about research than sanity. I said few pro- **choicers** are crazy. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-choicers-slip-soft-fetus-toys-into-kids-candy-bags-at-nd-state-fair/664505/334 "2013-08-16T16:54:40Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > I have trouble with the words “baby” (at six weeks, it’s not even an fetus), “mother” (a mother is a woman who has given birth), and especially “his” (and in all anti-abortion tracts I’ve read, the masculine pronoun is always used). His is generally accepted. I detest his/her, she/he. I could use “it” but then it’s be a “gotcha” by using a pronoun for no-humans. Baby and mother are common words in English for that situation. > [@WhyNot](#): > > Bullocks. > > Half the blastocyst (it’s not even an embryo yet, much less a baby), the outer half, is what will become the placenta and amniotic sac. The embryo-to-be cells are on the inside, and never touch the endometrium. So, no, it’s not “an embryo-controlled process”. It’s a placenta-cells-to-be controlled process, which doesn’t work without the right mix of hormones from the mother’s body present (that is, too little maternal progesterone, and that sucker’s coming out with the menstrual fluid, fertilized or not). [Fetal development: MedlinePlus Medical Encyclopedia](http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/002398.htm) The blastocyst attaches itself to the endometrium, thats a fact. The endometrium does not grab the blastocyst and forcé implantation. The processes are controlled (not exclusively but primarily) by the baby. Of course, if you put a blastocyst in my grandma’s uterus it ain’t gonna stick, of course the is a interaction, but the porcess is dominated by the blastocys. If the blastocyst were dead, there’d be no implantation. From your link “The blastocyst reaches the womb (uterus) around day 5, and implants into the uterine wall on about day 6”, it is the blastocyst the "implants into"not the endometrium abosorbing. Fact, they’re bitches. > [@Longshanks](#): > > Wouldn’t it be a great world if everybody stopped trying to espouse their beliefs onto everybody else and just let each individual make their own choices in their own life. No. It’d be hell. > [@Cyros](#): > > Wonderful! Well, until I choose to cover your lawn with soft fetus toys (at least you hope they’re toys. hehehehehe). Especially if they are anatomically incorrect. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-choicers-slip-soft-fetus-toys-into-kids-candy-bags-at-nd-state-fair/664505/335 "2013-08-16T17:05:18Z")
Have we ever established whether the soft fetus toys make screaming sounds when you squeeze them? It’d be an added touch of “realism”.\* \*And I’d definitely have to get one for Patience the Labrador. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-choicers-slip-soft-fetus-toys-into-kids-candy-bags-at-nd-state-fair/664505/336 "2013-08-16T17:33:09Z")
> [@Longshanks](#): > > Wouldn’t it be a great world if everybody stopped trying to espouse their beliefs onto everybody else and just let each individual make their own choices in their own life. > [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > No. It’d be hell. News for Canadians that have the less abortion restrictions, what a hell hole they live in! :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Cyros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a698b9/32.png) [@Cyros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyros)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-choicers-slip-soft-fetus-toys-into-kids-candy-bags-at-nd-state-fair/664505/337 "2013-08-16T18:37:36Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > The blastocyst attaches itself to the endometrium, thats a fact. The endometrium does not grab the blastocyst and forcé implantation. The processes are controlled (not exclusively but primarily) by the baby. This sounds a lot like arguing whether it is the hook or the loop which is responsible for velcro attaching to something. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-choicers-slip-soft-fetus-toys-into-kids-candy-bags-at-nd-state-fair/664505/338 "2013-08-16T18:54:11Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > The blastocyst attaches itself to the endometrium, thats a fact. The endometrium does not grab the blastocyst and forcé implantation. The processes are controlled (not exclusively but primarily) by the baby. I hope you’re not making the argument that the “baby”, as you call it, has some kind of conscious self-determination at that stage of development AND that cellular behavior somehow means that it should be protected. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-choicers-slip-soft-fetus-toys-into-kids-candy-bags-at-nd-state-fair/664505/339 "2013-08-16T19:02:46Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > His is generally accepted. I detest his/her, she/he. I could use “it” but then it’s be a “gotcha” by using a pronoun for no-humans. > Baby and mother are common words in English for that situation. Not really. “Mother” is rarely used for a woman in her first pregnancy without the “expectant” qualifier. “Baby” may be used in personal circles (“oh, the baby kicked”, or “the ultrasound shows you have a normal baby”) when there is a reasonable expectation of carrying to term, but generally speaking, in English we say “embryo” or “fetus”. > [@](#): > > No. It’d be hell. One man’s hell is another man’s Kansas. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-choicers-slip-soft-fetus-toys-into-kids-candy-bags-at-nd-state-fair/664505/340 "2013-08-16T19:09:31Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Have we ever established whether the soft fetus toys make screaming sounds when you squeeze them? > > It’d be an added touch of “realism”.\* > > \*And I’d definitely have to get one for Patience the Labrador. They come in a realistic amniotic sacs with lime amniotic soda (no sugar added, celiac safe). > [@GIGObuster](#): > > News for Canadians that have the less abortion restrictions, what a hell hole they live in! :rolleyes: Since the quote wasn’t “fewer abortion restrictions” your lame attempt at a brownie point fails. > [@Cyros](#): > > This sounds a lot like arguing whether it is the hook or the loop which is responsible for velcro attaching to something. No, it isn’t. It’s whether we can say the a key opens a lock (HINT: Yes). Of course, the internal mechanism of the lock allow the key to unlock the necessary thingys inside and keys alone don’t open sihit, but trying to argue against the key’s main role in the opening is a couple of steps beyond angels and pinheads. > [@YogSosoth](#): > > I hope you’re not making the argument that the “baby”, as you call it, has some kind of conscious self-determination at that stage of development AND that cellular behavior somehow means that it should be protected. :dubious: No, I’m not on both counts. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-choicers-slip-soft-fetus-toys-into-kids-candy-bags-at-nd-state-fair/664505.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-choicers-slip-soft-fetus-toys-into-kids-candy-bags-at-nd-state-fair/664505.md?page=18)