# Anti-death penalty and Christ. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 21, 2011, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-death-penalty-and-christ/568414 "2011-01-21T03:24:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2011, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-death-penalty-and-christ/568414/61 "2011-01-26T16:53:29Z")
You seem to be suggesting that God allows evil to exist as a means to an end, but that would mean that God is not all powerful, because all powerful entities do not require means to ends. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2011, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-death-penalty-and-christ/568414/62 "2011-01-26T19:53:44Z")
No, I am making no argument with regard to why evil exists. I’m saying that evil does exist, and God is able to make good come from it, but that does not make it less evil. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2011, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-death-penalty-and-christ/568414/63 "2011-01-26T19:56:08Z")
But it can’t be separated from God. If evil exists, it can only exist because God wants it to. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2011, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-death-penalty-and-christ/568414/64 "2011-01-26T20:00:00Z")
Perhaps, but that’s a well-tread argument and not my point. My point is that a good outcome does not justify an evil act. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2011, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-death-penalty-and-christ/568414/65 "2011-01-26T20:03:17Z")
I think evil has gotten a bad rap. Evil is almost always good for _someone_. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-death-penalty-and-christ/568414/66 "2011-01-27T12:23:49Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > No, that’s not what I’m saying at all. It’s nonsensical to say that evil “should” exist. But evil _does_ exist, and God uses it for good. > > . Nope. That’s the opposite of what I’m arguing. Hitler’s killing was evil. To the extent people rose up against it together to decray bigotry, that was some good that came out of it, but it doesn’t change the fact that Hitler’s actions were still evil to begin with. You’re making the same mistake the OP makes in regard to the death penalty. > > Again, absolutely not. If by murdering someone the murderer somehow brings about world peace, the murder itself is still evil. > > You’re asking why God allows evil to exist at all, and that’s a completely different, and endless, debate. How do you know God is the one who brought good out of it, or that it just came about that way? He is said to have created a being (Satan) who turned evil,and allowed this being to continue to exist, and even though He knew this evil being would cause the eternal death of some of his lesser creatures He still allows it, and even played games with this being over a man named Lot! It just doesn’t make sense to me, if a good human father did this to his children he would be put in jail. In a sense then God created evil and it is His fault that evil exists. He could have just wished Satan and his cohorts in to non-existence!But He punishes an ignorant human for disobeying Him and all his decendents? Sorry, but that doesn’t add up! ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-death-penalty-and-christ/568414/67 "2011-01-27T12:43:37Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > No, I am making no argument with regard to why evil exists. I’m saying that evil does exist, and God is able to make good come from it, but that does not make it less evil. What was the good that came out of Joshua killing all the babys, small childeren, and innocent children,and others, that God was supposed to have created. Was the good that God brought out of it the fact that the Israelites now owned the town? I wonder about that kind of “Good”! Why didn’t God love the people of Jericho? ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-death-penalty-and-christ/568414/68 "2011-01-27T13:01:01Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I’m an atheist, so take this for what it’s worth, but I think I see a pretty big flaw in this argument. You’re suggesting that the death penalty is a good thing, because without it, Jesus could not have died for our sins. However, without our sins, Jesus could not have died for our sins either. Does it, therefore, follow that it is good to sin? I am impressed. This is exactly what I was going to say as a Christian. Heck, it’s flat out Scriptural: “What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin, how can we live in it any longer?” (Romans 6:1-2, NIV) As far as I can tell, the stuff about whether God is good or not is really not on topic. Under the hypothetical set up by the OP, we have to assume that Christianity is true. This also means accepting the biblical account, whether you think it is accurate or not. This is therefore the obvious counterargument. (I also realize that **Skammer** is making the same argument, but its lack of brevity is apparently causing confusion.) ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-death-penalty-and-christ/568414/69 "2011-01-27T18:49:44Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > How do you know God is the one who brought good out of it, or that it just came about that way? Objectively speaking, I don’t. But the OP is asking the question from the perspective of Catholic faith and so that is how I am answering. By faith, that is what I believe. > [@](#): > > He is said to have created a being (Satan) who turned evil,and allowed this being to continue to exist, and even though He knew this evil being would cause the eternal death of some of his lesser creatures He still allows it, and even played games with this being over a man named Lot! It just doesn’t make sense to me, if a good human father did this to his children he would be put in jail. In a sense then God created evil and it is His fault that evil exists. He could have just wished Satan and his cohorts in to non-existence!But He punishes an ignorant human for disobeying Him and all his decendents? Sorry, but that doesn’t add up! I think you mean Job, not Lot. Again, the question of why God allows evil to exist is an interesting one that has been argued about for millenia – since well before Jesus’ time. That’s not the problem I was addressing. > [@monavis](#): > > What was the good that came out of Joshua killing all the babys, small childeren, and innocent children,and others, that God was supposed to have created. Was the good that God brought out of it the fact that the Israelites now owned the town? I wonder about that kind of “Good”! Why didn’t God love the people of Jericho? First of all, I don’t know what good came out of the battle of Jericho other than Isreal now owned the city as promised. I’m not arguing that evil always results in good for everyone (what good did the Holocaust do the Jews?). My point is that even _if_ good comes from evil, as it often but not always does, it doesn’t make the evil okay. You seem to agree with me. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2011, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-death-penalty-and-christ/568414/70 "2011-01-28T13:06:47Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > Objectively speaking, I don’t. But the OP is asking the question from the perspective of Catholic faith and so that is how I am answering. By faith, that is what I believe. I think you mean Job, not Lot. Again, the question of why God allows evil to exist is an interesting one that has been argued about for millenia – since well before Jesus’ time. That’s not the problem I was addressing. > > First of all, I don’t know what good came out of the battle of Jericho other than Isreal now owned the city as promised. > > I’m not arguing that evil always results in good for everyone (what good did the Holocaust do the Jews?). My point is that even _if_ good comes from evil, as it often but not always does, it doesn’t make the evil okay. You seem to agree with me. Yes, I did mean Job, I was thinking of God killing a whole lot of innocent babies, young children, mentally challenged etc. and not asking Lot to take them with his family. The idea that the writers of the OT and NT, seem to portray God as a cruel,egotistic being. This same God should have known this would happen before he created them, or allowed them to be born,He must have wanted evil to exist, and why He would be afraid that Satan was trying to over power Him makes no sense to me. Since Satan and his cohorts were not tempted but chose to rebel, doen’t say much for the perfection of Angels. I have often wondered if Angels were just a thought of God or what substance they were created from. Humans were made of clay,but angels have no substance! Why didn’t God make evil even possible? Does he like to play games? ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2011, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-death-penalty-and-christ/568414/71 "2011-01-28T16:19:51Z")
It does seem inescapable that evil and suffering exists; and God, having the power to stop it, allows it to continue. Christians have no good explanation for this other than we are incapable of understanding God’s purpose. I don’t have a better answer for you. ---
**Author:** ![Naxos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/50afbb/32.png) [@Naxos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Naxos)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2011, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-death-penalty-and-christ/568414/72 "2011-01-28T18:38:13Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > It does seem inescapable that evil and suffering exists; and God, having the power to stop it, allows it to continue. Christians have no good explanation for this other than we are incapable of understanding God’s purpose. I don’t have a better answer for you. They don’t, along with everyone else, because no gods exist. [Epicurean Paradox: ~ 300 BCE](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epicurus) “Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?” Any other answer is irrational. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2011, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-death-penalty-and-christ/568414/73 "2011-01-28T20:23:19Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > It does seem inescapable that evil and suffering exists; and God, having the power to stop it, allows it to continue. Christians have no good explanation for this other than we are incapable of understanding God’s purpose. I don’t have a better answer for you. You’re talking to the wrong Christians. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2011, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-death-penalty-and-christ/568414/74 "2011-01-28T21:35:59Z")
> [@Naxos](#): > > They don’t, along with everyone else, because no gods exist. That’s one opinion, but I don’t share it. > [@](#): > > [Epicurean Paradox: ~ 300 BCE](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epicurus) > > “Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?” > > Any other answer is irrational. You’re not bringing anything new – I said above, the question predates Jesus by centuries. There are several traditional religious responses. You don’t find the answers compelling. Believers don’t find the apparent paradox troubling. Nothing can be gained by rehashing it here, again and again. > [@raindog](#): > > You’re talking to the wrong Christians. No, I don’t think I am. When I said Christians don’t have a “good” explanation for evil, I meant in the sense that will convince anyone like **Naxos**. I find them sufficient, if not always entirely satisfactory. ---
**Author:** ![Naxos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/50afbb/32.png) [@Naxos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Naxos)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2011, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-death-penalty-and-christ/568414/75 "2011-01-28T22:04:21Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > … Believers don’t find the apparent paradox troubling. Neither would a schizophrenic. That’s why religion is a mental disorder. It doesn’t render the believer incapable of functioning in society, although there are ample examples when it does, but the insistence of a person to dismiss reality in favor of their fantasies and imaginations is a standard indicator of mental instability. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2011, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-death-penalty-and-christ/568414/76 "2011-01-28T22:27:28Z")
Your perception of reality is your own, your credentials for diagnosing mental disorders have not been established, and I’m not going to further the hijack by arguing about the Problem of Evil. I’ve responded to the OP concerning the topic at hand. ---
**Author:** ![Naxos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/50afbb/32.png) [@Naxos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Naxos)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2011, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-death-penalty-and-christ/568414/77 "2011-01-29T02:48:49Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > Your perception of reality is your own… Reality is independent of me, you, him, her, and every human being that ever or will ever live. It’s very difficult to dismiss one’s ego when considering questions regarding reality, I know, but unless you do this, all fantasies you come up with when trying to explain the world around you, will probably hurt others rather than having a neutral or beneficial effect on society. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2011, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-death-penalty-and-christ/568414/78 "2011-01-29T04:40:25Z")
> [@Naxos](#): > > Reality is independent of me, you, him, her, and every human being that ever or will ever live… Nonsense. People have a piece of shaping reality. We have changed the face of the earth. We have changed the face of the moon – a little bit. We are changing the world’s climate. Individuals have also made changes to the reality of millions of people’s lives. Most of us, myself included, have minuscule control over reality. But to the extent we have choices to make about actions we take, we are influencing reality. At this moment I am lying on my couch typing on my laptop. If I choose to move to my desk, I will alter physical reality. ---
**Author:** ![Naxos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/50afbb/32.png) [@Naxos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Naxos)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2011, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-death-penalty-and-christ/568414/79 "2011-01-29T04:46:41Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Nonsense. People have a piece of shaping reality… So the gods were just waiting around during the 50 million years of the Triassic period… waiting for the eventual evolution of human beings so they can conceive of the idea of the gods’ existence? Schizophrenics are more consistent than this. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2011, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-death-penalty-and-christ/568414/80 "2011-01-29T05:03:45Z")
Hey, I’m an atheist. You made no reference to a god in the comment I was responding to, and my reply stands with or without gods. Preferably without. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-death-penalty-and-christ/568414.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-death-penalty-and-christ/568414.md?page=5)