# Anti-Feminism **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 17, 2015, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390 "2015-07-17T06:05:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/221 "2015-07-20T02:06:30Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’m not going to just take your word for it (not that I accept for certain that those numbers are perfectly accurate). Please do your own research on this one. All it takes is a few simple [google.com](http://google.com) searches. It has been thoroughly debunked even by people that describe themselves as feminists. It is complete bullshit and should never be supported by anyone on this board ever again. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/222 "2015-07-20T02:06:46Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > It’s the same rhetoric that is used against any other group trying to bring about equality. Oh, you don’t want to end discrimination against LGBTQ people. You just want special rights. Oh, you don’t want to end racial discrimination. You’re so lucky to be black. Oh, you don’t want to end religious discrimination. You just want to persecute Christians. > > Over and over and over and over. This particular OP has apparently decided that 2015 is the year of the complaint about feminism. We’re just lucky he’s decided that the dope is the perfect spot for it. **jsgoddess** : If you want to discuss the topic, I encourage you to join in. If you want to lob ad hominem attacks at me, I’d encourage you to start a thread in the pit. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/223 "2015-07-20T02:07:48Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > Congratulations. Mission accomplished. At least in the areas I have practiced law, your dream for a better world has come true. What areas are those? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/224 "2015-07-20T02:11:29Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Let’s start with prison rape. This is from the first two pages of a Google search for “feminism prison rape”: > > [Why We Need to Stop Justifying Prison Rape Against People Who Commit Violent Crimes - Everyday Feminism](http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/04/stop-justifying-prison-rape/) > > [Prison Rape | Vegan Feminist Network](http://veganfeministnetwork.com/tag/prison-rape/) > > [http://m.nsvrc.org/blogs/feminist-justice-spotlight-rape-detention](http://m.nsvrc.org/blogs/feminist-justice-spotlight-rape-detention) > > [Daily Kos](http://m.dailykos.com/story/2014/12/10/1350712/-Random-Rant-Prison-rape-IS-rape-culture) > > [The Feministing Five: Lovisa Stannow](http://feministing.com/2014/03/15/the-feministing-five-lovisa-stannow/) > > What’s hilarious is that the majority of the rest of the links are MRA trying to play “gotcha” with the issue of prison rape. Here is written testimony by a woman I know who is an expert on prison rape, including male victims of female guards: > **[WrittenTestimonyofKimBuchanan.pdf](https://ojp.gov/sites/g/files/xyckuh241/files/media/document/WrittenTestimonyofKimBuchanan.pdf)** > > 1665.42 KB She is a feminist, a woman of color, and an attorney and this is her field of expertise. And [here](http://crim.jotwell.com/violence-against-men-in-prison-and-out/) is a review of another of Kim’s articles. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/225 "2015-07-20T02:11:34Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > I’m happy to hear that you’re not against shared parenting. > > [NOW isn’t with you, though](http://www.nownys.org/archives/leg_memos/oppose_a00330.html): …what does that matter? NOW isn’t the be all and end all of feminism. Neither is NOW New York State, Inc, and neither is the opinion of NOW New York State, Inc way back in 2005. Now how long did it take you to search and find that opinion? I’m a feminist, and I’m not opposed to shared parenting. That in itself makes your assertion incorrect. No further examples are required to demonstrate that your assertion “Feminists, by the way are against it” is simply wrong. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/226 "2015-07-20T02:15:32Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > I’m happy to hear that you’re not against shared parenting. > > [NOW isn’t with you, though](http://www.nownys.org/archives/leg_memos/oppose_a00330.html): You forgot the rest of the passage, which advocates for contested custody (with a reminder that 95% of custody is settled outside of courts) to lean toward the primary caregiver. That’s a different thing than toward the woman. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/227 "2015-07-20T02:16:00Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > I would actually love to see a poll like that because I honestly have no idea what the results would be. The whacko feminists, especially the academic ones, get most of the press. I really don’t know what the ratio of whacko to moderate feminists is. Most women reject the label for themselves for the same reason that I do even if they support parts of the message and the legacy importance of the earlier waves. That is a problem on its own but it is only one of several. Feminism has many different branches that often have infighting among themselves and sometimes completely contradict one another (personal freedom of choice versus mandated female security are a common theme in many of the conflicts). > > ‘Big tent’ labels like that are not marketable to the mainstream especially when you don’t get much useful information when someone says that they are a ‘feminist’. It could mean anything from supporting basic human rights of women in oppressed societies to the idea that women should dominate public affairs). It only serves as a vapid logo, not as a coherent philosophical or political message and that is a real problem, not just for feminism, but for any movement or message that has been co-opted by many very different groups for their own purposes. > > The last thing that comes to mind when I think of feminism is overall equality. It may be a media driven creation but the vast majority of the news stories I read about it from both liberal and conservative sources lead me to believe it is now a reactionary campaign whose main tactic is disseminating misleading or blatantly false information and statistics to as many people as possible to further their agenda. That is bad enough when someone like Rush Limbaugh uses the same set of tactics for personal gain but it is unforgivable (and I would argue fireable) when it is allowed within universities whose main purpose is supposed to combat disinformation from all sources. When I went to college 20+ years ago, we were all required to sit through a lecture about campus rape. The speaker said that if you had sex with someone who was drunk, it was rape. I raised my hand and asked, “If both people are drunk, does that mean they raped each other?” She said, “yes.” At that moment, I knew she was fucking idiot. Anyway, that story (though true) was mainly just an excuse to quote your post, because I liked it so much. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/228 "2015-07-20T02:21:46Z")
“Against shared parenting” is a meaningless phrase, and obscures basically everything that the debate is about. NOW is on the right side of that debate, incidentally. Nobody is “against shared parenting” as like an abstract philosophical principle. The question is whether a court should, in a particular case, _presume_ that 50/50 between parent and parent is the best possible arrangement, or whether a court should look at all the factors in the case that pertain to the child’s best interest and start from scratch in building a custody order without any presumption. NOW is simply pointing out the obvious true thing that there’s no reason in a particular case to presume that shared parenting is what’s best for a given child, when the alternative is simply to look at the facts and make a decision. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/229 "2015-07-20T02:23:56Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > Well, all people with axes to grind want to feel justified in their grinding. Thus we often see, here, lists of “reasons” for resenting one particular group or another (such as you mention here). It makes it all seem so Logical and Rational!..at least in the minds of the thread-originators. To the reader, some of these threads appear rather transparently as the shrieks of the toddler, denied his (or her!) expected privileges and prerogatives. > > But, yeah: it’s an old tactic (to claim that Those People Expect Special Treatment). Another: to claim that “most” members of a group would never identify with those asking for equality, as here: > > No doubt there were plenty of white people in the 60s averring that _reasonable_ \*coloreds didn’t have anything to do with that Civil Rights radicalism!..\*and the like. Same basic thing. > > Another commonly-seen tactic: to claim that the drive for equality is all-effed-up due to Crazy Proponents of Equality who just Can’t Get Their Shit Together, as here: > > But when the tactics descend to claims that it’s An _Outrage!_ that Kate Winslet got the raft while Leo DiCaprio drowned…then you have some _special_ brand of desperation on your hands. :rolleyes: It’s amazing, out of that entire over-long OP, the only thing you got out of it was the Titanic scene. Here’s the thing about **saying** you’re for equality, and **being** for equality: If someone says, “I’m not a racist, but man… black people suck.” The fact that he **says** he’s not a racist, doesn’t mean shit. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/230 "2015-07-20T02:48:46Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > You know that this is the default in the vast majority of states, right? No, I don’t know that. I know the law in my own state, but I don’t know the laws of every state. In the little bit of research I had time to do, the results were not encouraging. [There was this, though](http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/11/13/shared-parenting-laws-report-card/18981831/): > [@](#): > > Supporters of shared parenting for children whose parents are divorced or separated have few victories to claim in their attempts to win family law reforms across the country > > “It’s been a hard slog, and there’s not a lot to show for those efforts,” said Dr. Ned Holstein, the founder of the National Parents Organization. > > Holstein’s organization and other supporters are trying to reverse decades of family law tradition where judges often award custody to one parent – typically the mother – while the non-custodial parents receive less time with their children. In cases that don’t involve allegations of physical abuse, substance abuse or other issues, supporters argue that both parents should have a 50-50 split with children. > > But the difficulty in convincing state lawmakers to buck tradition was reflected in a first-ever report card released Thursday by the National Parents Organization. The study evaluated state custody laws and found that most of them are not friendly to shared parenting. > > Nearly half the states received a D, while New York and Rhode Island received Fs. No state received an A, but seven states and the District of Columbia received a B. The top scoring states were Alaska and Arizona. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/231 "2015-07-20T02:55:13Z")
Parent A lives six counties from Parent B. The kid is in middle school, plays soccer, has piano lessons, and has two Scout events a week. Alternatively: Parent A works 75 hours a week, travels frequently, and lives in an urban highrise. Parent B doesn’t work, and has done 97% of the caretaking. There are three kids, ages 1, 3 and 5. You tell me how a presumption of 50/50’s gonna work out for these kids. There’s a good reason it isn’t the law everywhere: it’s a terrible idea just begging for a quagmire. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/232 "2015-07-20T03:03:37Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Okay, now you are pissing me off. Do you want to compare notes on the dirty, dangerous, back breaking work we’ve done? > > Anyway, I agree the “feminists” you describe are appalling. Thank goddess they only exist in your head. That would be pointless, since I wasn’t talking about you. (Unless, of course, you are a wealthy NY blogger who spends her time trying to think of new things to complain about - but that seems unlikely.) If you haven’t gotten this from me already, I’m pro-working class. I’m for the people who do the dirty, ugly work so the rich don’t have to. I’m (and anyone who has called me a Marxist in my economics threads will attest to this) way left of the Democratic mainstream when it comes to things like income, taxes, property rights, and full employment. But yeah, I have done dirty work. And I’m sure you have too. Sorry that I pissed you off. It wasn’t on purpose. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/233 "2015-07-20T03:53:06Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > . . . Show me feminists who’re trying to stop prison rape. . . . [That one, at least, is easy.](http://now.org/blog/how-feminism-and-now-have-helped-men/) NOW (National Organization for Women) has worked to oppose prison rape, and lobbied for law against it. "Ending sexual and domestic violence Feminism has fought against sexual violence, including sexual violence against men. Feminists fought to change the federal definition of rape to include male victims, they fought for the Prison Rape Elimination Act of 2003, and they continue to fight to end sexual violence in the military." ---
**Author:** ![Some\_Call\_Me.Tim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Some\_Call\_Me.Tim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Some_Call_Me.Tim)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/234 "2015-07-20T04:03:22Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Or the U.S., where we couldn’t vote (!!!) until 1920. In the interests of fighting ignorance, as stated your statement is incorrect. Prior to 1920, local US jurisdictions determined who was permitted to vote- for example, women were voting in Wyoming Territory starting in 1869. Not every woman in the US could vote prior to 1920, but conversely not every woman in the US could not. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/235 "2015-07-20T09:25:22Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > There are very good reasons for why there should be a general social understanding that, at some level, men’s lives actually are less valuable than women. Start from the fact that, in an evolutionary sense, the vast majority of men in a society are, uh, expendable. Women aren’t. Well, I’d like to hear these “very good reasons”, because I find that viewpoint abhorrent. The evolutionary argument is certainly not one of them. Evolution is just a process, not some angry god we must appease. We owe it nothing. And it doesn’t suit society right now to try to maximize birth rate. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 9:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/236 "2015-07-20T09:43:20Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > Please do your own research on this one. All it takes is a few simple [google.com](http://google.com) searches. It has been thoroughly debunked even by people that describe themselves as feminists. It is complete bullshit and should never be supported by anyone on this board ever again. Done, and not surprisingly, the numbers don’t appear to be “complete bullshit”. 1 in 5 women have probably not been raped, but in some surveys 1 in 5 women have reported being sexually assaulted in some way (which can include things like unwanted groping). I find that problematic. Women do, in fact, make close to [82 cents on the dollar,](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_pay_gap_in_the_United_States) but much of this can be explained by differences in average experience, job skills, and the like. Not all of it, though – when these various factors are taken into account, women with the same amount of experience in the same field still make [about a 5% lower wage](https://www.stlouisfed.org/Publications/Regional-Economist/October-2011/Gender-Wage-Gap-May-Be-Much-Smaller-Than-Most-Think), on average, than men. So there really does appear to be some level of salary discrimination by gender (and [by race](http://insight.kellogg.northwestern.edu/article/statistics_that_hurt), incidentally). ---
**Author:** ![Your\_Great\_Darsh\_Face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ac8455/32.png) [@Your\_Great\_Darsh\_Face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Your_Great_Darsh_Face)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/237 "2015-07-20T11:01:11Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Done, and not surprisingly, the numbers don’t appear to be “complete bullshit”. 1 in 5 women have probably not been raped, but in some surveys 1 in 5 women have reported being sexually assaulted in some way (which can include things like unwanted groping). I find that problematic. Women do, in fact, make close to [82 cents on the dollar,](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_pay_gap_in_the_United_States) but much of this can be explained by differences in average experience, job skills, and the like. Not all of it, though – when these various factors are taken into account, women with the same amount of experience in the same field still make [about a 5% lower wage](https://www.stlouisfed.org/Publications/Regional-Economist/October-2011/Gender-Wage-Gap-May-Be-Much-Smaller-Than-Most-Think), on average, than men. So there really does appear to be some level of salary discrimination by gender (and [by race](http://insight.kellogg.northwestern.edu/article/statistics_that_hurt), incidentally). So, not 1 in 5 get raped - 1 in 5 get “sexually assaulted in some way” if you make your definition as broad as possible. So, not 75 cents on the dollar but possibly 5% less. You’ll be vigorously promoting the correct statistics in future, of course? ---
**Author:** ![robertliguori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@robertliguori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robertliguori)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/238 "2015-07-20T11:14:14Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Done, and not surprisingly, the numbers don’t appear to be “complete bullshit”. 1 in 5 women have probably not been raped, but in some surveys 1 in 5 women have reported being sexually assaulted in some way (which can include things like unwanted groping). I find that problematic. Women do, in fact, make close to [82 cents on the dollar,](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_pay_gap_in_the_United_States) but much of this can be explained by differences in average experience, job skills, and the like. Not all of it, though – when these various factors are taken into account, women with the same amount of experience in the same field still make [about a 5% lower wage](https://www.stlouisfed.org/Publications/Regional-Economist/October-2011/Gender-Wage-Gap-May-Be-Much-Smaller-Than-Most-Think), on average, than men. So there really does appear to be some level of salary discrimination by gender (and [by race](http://insight.kellogg.northwestern.edu/article/statistics_that_hurt), incidentally). I, uh, think that the difference between 22% and 5% is pretty damn indicative of bullshit. And yes, declaring rape and sexual assault to be the same thing is to say that I was raped when a stranger smacked my ass in the 7-11 a few months ago. So, is that the threshold now? 5% of a pay gap indicates a case of serious inequality? Because if so, I’ve got some statistics about violent crime, workplace deaths, suicide rate, and most especially treatment by law enforcement and the legal system that will make a Men’s Right’s Activist of you. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/239 "2015-07-20T11:16:48Z")
> [@Your\_Great\_Darsh\_Face](#): > > So, not 1 in 5 get raped - 1 in 5 get “sexually assaulted in some way” if you make your definition as broad as possible. > So, not 75 cents on the dollar but possibly 5% less. > > You’ll be vigorously promoting the correct statistics in future, of course? I haven’t promoted any statistics, “vigorously” or otherwise. These numbers might be useful to certain conversations – and even the ~75 cents on the dollar number can be a useful beginning to the discussion… after all, it’s entirely possible that societal gender bias is at least somewhat responsible for women having less experience in certain fields, or being less likely to choose/get chosen for certain jobs, etc. And the 1 in 5 women being sexually assaulted is, if true, a serious problem, worthy of condemnation and discussion about how to solve it. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/240 "2015-07-20T11:54:08Z")
[QUOTE=iiandyiiii;18532070Women do, in fact, make close to [82 cents on the dollar,] ([Gender pay gap in the United States - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_pay_gap_in_the_United_States)) but much of this can be explained by differences in average experience, job skills, and the like. [/QUOTE] These “other factors” are not outside of the conversation. They are an essential part of it. Unless the relevant job skill is “having a penis”, this gap is probably problematic. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390.md?page=13)