# Anti-Feminism **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 17, 2015, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390 "2015-07-17T06:05:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/21 "2015-07-17T12:56:45Z")
Most movements follow the course of Thesis vs. Antithesis = Synthesis. Then the synthesis becomes a new thesis, vs. a new antithesis, world without end, amen. Example: Capitalism responded to Communism with either Socialism as in Europe and the US, or repression as in Latin America. As a result, Europe, the US, the former USSR and China are capitalist, while the hard-liners on either side like North Korea and Paraguay are in pretty bad shape. Is there a middle ground between Feminism and traditional gender roles? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/22 "2015-07-17T12:58:09Z")
Much of the time that’s true. A world class athlete vs. an average lady at a bar is like an adult vs. a child. If a man and a woman don’t have too much of a physical discrepancy and the woman hits first though, let her have it. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/23 "2015-07-17T13:01:38Z")
> [@Slithy\_Tove](#): > > Is there a middle ground between Feminism and traditional gender roles? Well, for most women, it’s them having the right to do everything a man does, but only if they want to. That’s the middle ground. ---
**Author:** ![Grotonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c2a13f/32.png) [@Grotonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grotonian)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/24 "2015-07-17T13:14:53Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > That was hitting him? Looked more like a slow dab by a weak teddy bear. > > Girls are slow and weak, while they shouldn’t go around punching people, you cannot respond with your full force. I agree, but I’m not arguing that women should be treated the same as men. I’m asking why feminists argue that, but only when it’s convenient. But I disagree he responded with his full force; he neither wound up nor stepped into that punch. It was still enough to cut and blacken her eye, but it’s not his fault homegirl’s no good at taking a punch. She was more than willing to throw one. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/25 "2015-07-17T13:15:49Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Do you agree with the main point of the posting, that for almost all of human history women were both weaker and more valuable and needed to be protected? Do you agree there is some truth to that, a lot, none? What do you think? Oh, women have needed men’s protection, all right – from other men; not from lions or tigers or bears. ---
**Author:** ![Grotonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c2a13f/32.png) [@Grotonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grotonian)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/26 "2015-07-17T13:22:19Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > It says he grabbed her (after she “confronted” him about pushing past him) and then she hit him. Would have to know more, but it’s not quite as one-sided as her just hitting him… She pushed him, was jawing at him (you can see her mouth running), then raised a clenched fist. He grabbed the wrist of her raised fist, she then kneed and hit him in the face. He hit her in the face and walked away. At every stage she escalated the confrontation. It’s all in the video. I have no idea what else there is to know. If it had been two men it would’ve been mutual combat: no charges or both charged. But since she’s a girl, he should know better. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/27 "2015-07-17T13:23:37Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > I agree, but I’m not arguing that women should be treated the same as men. I’m asking why feminists argue that, but only when it’s convenient. > > But I disagree he responded with his full force; he neither wound up nor stepped into that punch. It was still enough to cut and blacken her eye, but it’s not his fault homegirl’s no good at taking a punch. She was more than willing to throw one. I don’t think it’s always relevant to call feminism in. Not everything a woman does or doesn’t do needs to involve feminism. Two drunk people brawl. I’m not sure that’s really worth anyone’s time, figuring out who behaved “more” badly. ---
**Author:** ![Grotonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c2a13f/32.png) [@Grotonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grotonian)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/28 "2015-07-17T13:37:58Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > I don’t think it’s always relevant to call feminism in. Not everything a woman does or doesn’t do needs to involve feminism. Two drunk people brawl. I’m not sure that’s really worth anyone’s time, figuring out who behaved “more” badly. No, when the police, prosecutors, and judges treat a bar fight differently because the aggressor was female and not male, and in fact treat the aggressor as the victim because she’s a girl, feminism is relevant. The only thing that excuses her behavior is her gender. (And her behavior WAS excused, she was not charged for pushing, kneeing, or punching the guy.) ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/29 "2015-07-17T13:39:40Z")
Patriarchal culture harms men as well as women, and many feminists call this out quite frequently. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/30 "2015-07-17T13:41:52Z")
If feminism had a single consistent definition it could be argued for or against. But it doesn’t, it’s more of a Rorschach inkblot that reveals the biases of those who use the term. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/31 "2015-07-17T13:44:32Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > No, when the police, prosecutors, and judges treat a bar fight differently because the aggressor was female and not male, and in fact treat the aggressor as the victim because she’s a girl, feminism is relevant. > > The only thing that excuses her behavior is her gender. (And her behavior WAS excused, she was not charged for pushing, kneeing, or punching the guy.) Do you know they did that? It could just as easily be that she wasn’t charged because he was bigger/stronger and because the judges/prosecutors believed that he instigated the fight. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/32 "2015-07-17T13:50:52Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > She pushed him, No. She was at the bar and he pushed her out of his way. From the Deadspin article up thread - > [@](#): > > "According to records, the woman was waiting to order at the bar when Johnson tried to push past her. " From the Talahassee Democrat, which has a longer video - > **[Video shows punch that led to QB De'Andre Johnson's arrest](https://www.tallahassee.com/story/news/2015/07/06/video-shows-punch-that-led-to-qbs-arrest/29775149/)** > > Video shows punch that led to QB's arrest > [@](#): > > "The incident occurred while the woman was waiting in line for a drink at Yianni’s nightclub and felt Johnson push past her aggressively, court records say. > > When she addressed him at the bar, she raised her arm to defend herself, and he grabbed her arm and began pushing her. She raised her knee into his midsection to push him away and attempted to punch him, court records say, before Johnson punched her on the left side of her face." He made first contact, trying to squeeze into the bar, rather than waiting his turn, and shoving her into the next person. And she didn’t knee him, she tried to push him with her leg since he had already grabbed her arm. > [@](#): > > was jawing at him (you can see her mouth running), It says a lot that you think this is relevant. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/33 "2015-07-17T13:53:01Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > If feminism had a single consistent definition it could be argued for or against. But it doesn’t, it’s more of a Rorschach inkblot that reveals the biases of those who use the term. Right. There are many ways society could improve related to treatment of and opportunities for, girls and women. If that s feminism, sign me up. If such efforts end up taking away advantages men have historically enjoyed, that’s probably a good thing, even if you could say it makes things worse for some men. On the other hand, if a particular aspect of feminism _unfairly_ hurts men, I think it’s fine to discuss that aspect without challenging the overall goals of feminism. The OP seems to be a non-solution in search of a problem. As he notes, real men aren’t bothered by this. ---
**Author:** ![BrightSunshine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b3f665/32.png) [@BrightSunshine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightSunshine)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/34 "2015-07-17T14:06:22Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > She pushed him, was jawing at him (you can see her mouth running), then raised a clenched fist. He grabbed the wrist of her raised fist, she then kneed and hit him in the face. He hit her in the face and walked away. > > At every stage she escalated the confrontation. It’s all in the video. I have no idea what else there is to know. > > If it had been two men it would’ve been mutual combat: no charges or both charged. But since she’s a girl, he should know better. He pushed her. If you look at the longer video he was pushing behind her, she turned around to say something, then he pushed her harder, and she threatens to punch, and then he grabbed her shoulder and pulled her hair, then she punched. ---
**Author:** ![Grotonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c2a13f/32.png) [@Grotonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grotonian)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/35 "2015-07-17T14:09:16Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > It says a lot that you think this is relevant. Lol. And it says a lot about you that you think quickly raising your knee into a guy’s crotch constitutes a “push”. God, that’s rich. I’ve read the articles, which comport with the police take on the story, which justifies charges against him and not her. But I can also watch the whole video without any commentary from others. And in the video, she clearly starts and escalates it. It doesn’t matter what the reporter says. ---
**Author:** ![Grotonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c2a13f/32.png) [@Grotonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grotonian)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/36 "2015-07-17T14:11:50Z")
> [@BrightSunshine](#): > > He pushed her. If you look at the longer video he was pushing behind her, she turned around to say something, then he pushed her harder, and she threatens to punch, and then he grabbed her shoulder and pulled her hair, then she punched. When did she “push” his crotch with her knee? Or did that now not happen? ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/37 "2015-07-17T14:35:57Z")
If I started a thread called “anti-science” and then told everybody what scientists believe and why they’re full of shit, and then told everyone who responded that they were wrong if they thought scientists believed anything other than what I told them scientists believed, I don’t know if by the end of it I’d have convinced myself I was right about science. But if I did it like 35 times, I’m pretty sure I would. The important thing is that I would not have actually gained any new information about what anyone else believes. ---
**Author:** ![BrightSunshine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b3f665/32.png) [@BrightSunshine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightSunshine)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/38 "2015-07-17T14:38:49Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > When did she “push” his crotch with her knee? Or did that now not happen? What?! He was behind her in the beginning when he started the problem (by shoving her). ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/39 "2015-07-17T14:41:25Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Well, for most women, it’s them having the right to do everything a man does, but only if they want to. That’s the middle ground. Can you not see how not-crazy that sounds? Feminists also want men to have the right to do everything a woman does, but only if they want to. The concept really isn’t that mind bending. ---
**Author:** ![BrightSunshine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b3f665/32.png) [@BrightSunshine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightSunshine)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/40 "2015-07-17T14:45:43Z")
I’ve watched the video 5 times and I honestly can’t see how anyone can say that she escalated it. He jammed his elbow into her back. She turned around to tell him, and he pushed even harder. She raised her fist to warn him, and he pushed harder still and grabbed her. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390.md?page=3)