# Anti-Feminism **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 17, 2015, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390 "2015-07-17T06:05:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/41 "2015-07-17T14:52:08Z")
> [@BrightSunshine](#): > > I’ve watched the video 5 times and I honestly can’t see how anyone can say that she escalated it. He jammed his elbow into her back. She turned around to tell him, and he pushed even harder. She raised her fist to warn him, and he pushed harder still and grabbed her. It’s violence against women in microcosm. If you read **Grotonian** ’s descriptions of what happened without the video, you’d think it was some tit-for-tat incident where both people were out of control. In reality, there was a very straightforward A to B to C story, where he was the aggressor and she tried to defend herself assertively, for which her reward was a right cross straight to the face. To some people, all that matters is that she did _something_ and he also did _something_, and if you draw the lines a certain way she did that thing first. Take gender out of it and these same people would suddenly see how much of an asshole the person who is pushing the other person into the bar is being. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/42 "2015-07-17T15:18:13Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > Feminism is about providing women with freedom without accountability; while at the same time attempting to define for men what it means to be a man (which happens to overlap with what it meant to be a man under patriarchy.) What a load of horseshit. Feminism is the advocacy of women’s rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men. That is all. Currently, in our non patriarch enlightened times 20% of US Senators are female, 19% Representatives are women. That is why politicians and the media speak of ‘Women’s Issues’ like they’re a special interest group, because though their numbers are large their voice is still small. When half the population is affected by anything it is an American Issue. That blindness is indicative of the whole problem. Honestly, I don’t have the time or energy to devote to debunking the rest of your conjecture, straw men, and poor logic, cause that’s all the OP contains. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/43 "2015-07-17T15:36:09Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Can you not see how not-crazy that sounds? > > Feminists also want men to have the right to do everything a woman does, but only if they want to. The concept really isn’t that mind bending. So for instance, [this poster](http://i.imgur.com/cIiJ1Sy.jpg) is anti-feminist? ---
**Author:** ![JVDaly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/edb3f5/32.png) [@JVDaly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JVDaly)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/44 "2015-07-17T15:38:00Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > Currently, in our non patriarch enlightened times 20% of US Senators are female, 19% Representatives are women. That is why politicians and the media speak of ‘Women’s Issues’ like they’re a special interest group, because though their numbers are large their voice is still small. When half the population is affected by anything it is an American Issue. That blindness is indicative of the whole problem. What is that as a percentage of women who run for office in the first place? ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/45 "2015-07-17T15:39:49Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > Feminism is the advocacy of women’s rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men. That is all. And if it were as simple as gay or racial rights, that would be that But for this issue, one side carries the fetus for nine months and the other does not. Accommodations can be made, and some will be seen as reasonable and long overdue, while others as unfair entitlements sought by self-serving advocates. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/46 "2015-07-17T15:54:33Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > So for instance, [this poster](http://i.imgur.com/cIiJ1Sy.jpg) is anti-feminist? Anti-feminist isn’t the first thing that popped in to mind, but it is inaccurate and misleading. Being drunk doesn’t render a person unable to consent. A drunken “hookup” between enthusiastic partners is not rape. Being so drunk you are unconscious or unable to comprehend what is happening or speak coherently enough to say “no” does. And it’s not a “man-woman” thing. Men can also become so drunk that they are passed out or uncomprehending, and doing anything sexual with them is also rape. I’d prefer a poster that explains that, and recommends that positive consent (while not a legal necessarily) is a good best practice. ---
**Author:** ![robertliguori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@robertliguori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robertliguori)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/47 "2015-07-17T16:16:15Z")
Feminism is a large, old movement, that contains multitudes of mutually-contradictory ideas. It seems silly to be categorically for or against it, when you can find a dozen examples of prominent people calling themselves feminists (and being referred to by others as feminists) for literally any policy or position. You can say “Feminism is mostly about special privileges.” or “Feminism is mostly about equality.”, but the fact is you can find loads of people advocating for both under the banner of feminism (and many other positions in addition). I don’t see how describing someone as feminist or anti-feminist tells me much of anything about the actual policies they support, any more than knowing that someone’s Christian tells me about their personal position on charity. Now, I’ve love to see an audit of people’s responses to questions on a bunch of issues with statistically-significant differences by sex (education, college attendance, arrest rates, incarceration rates, standardized test scores, income, rate of promotion, etc.) for a large cohort of people including people who identified as feminists, people who identified as anti-feminists, and people who didn’t identify strongly one way or the other, and compare the responses. But absent that, I don’t see any way to make statements about feminism as a movement with any kind of certainty whatsoever. ---
**Author:** ![Grotonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c2a13f/32.png) [@Grotonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grotonian)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/48 "2015-07-17T16:35:05Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > It’s violence against women in microcosm. If you read **Grotonian** ’s descriptions of what happened without the video, you’d think it was some tit-for-tat incident where both people were out of control. In reality, there was a very straightforward A to B to C story, where he was the aggressor and she tried to defend herself assertively, for which her reward was a right cross straight to the face. > > To some people, all that matters is that she did _something_ and he also did _something_, and if you draw the lines a certain way she did that thing first. Take gender out of it and these same people would suddenly see how much of an asshole the person who is pushing the other person into the bar is being. Lol again. Her raised, clenched fist is just a “warning,” eh? But not a threat? Gotcha. And when he grabbed that “warning,” she could have pulled her arm back, but instead chose to knee (oh, sorry, “push”) his crotch and hit his face. That was just an “assertive defense,” right. Lol. A defense of what? Well, her right to hold a clenched fist in his face. Lol. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/49 "2015-07-17T16:44:39Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > This topic is hard to write about: first, because there’s a certain social opprobrium in being against feminism - especially if you’re a Democrat and a liberal. Second, because feminism is (and I would argue always has been) so ingrained in our collective culture that exposing it takes a lot of writing. > > I’m going to start with what I consider both the most difficult and most important concept: feminism is not, and has never been, about exterminating patriarchy. > > Feminism is about providing women with freedom without accountability; while at the same time attempting to define for men what it means to be a man (which happens to overlap with what it meant to be a man under patriarchy.) The only possible attempt I’ve seen to eliminate accountability is birth control - sex without pregnancy. Is that what you mean? Because in every other aspect I see plenty of accountability, or the desire for men to have the same responsibilities. Maternity/paternity leave? Women take it, which is a good for society, I think, and suffer the consequences. In the main men don’t. Is that a good thing? Or is that men allowed and encourage by our society to shirk paternal duties. And thanks to feminism it is better now than in my parents’ day. Sure there are extremists. But there were 50 years ago in the civil rights movement also, and the presences of a few loonies is not an excuse to condemn the whole thing. Unless you are looking for an excuse to condemn it, that is. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/50 "2015-07-17T17:32:35Z")
I’m going to go with the easy and accurate definition of feminism: You’re a feminist if you want men and women to be treated equally and have the same rights (generally speaking) Now of course biologically, there are differences. I don’t think giving, for example, a woman maternity leave and not giving it to a man is somehow giving the woman more rights (that’s the kind of shit MRA types like to spew). Its nice to give it to both of them but one can actually have babies and one cannot. You’ll find a subset of reasonable people that can agree with the above. The extremist side takes issue with the claim that superficial benefits to women are equally or more unjust than institutional sexism against women, which they may claim not to exist at all (citing laughable claims of superficial female benefits) Come on, Titanic survival rates? Really? You’re going to use a single, rare event and blow the results out of proportion? I don’t think that’s a serious attempt to address the issue. Moreover, what I suspect but cannot prove is that many men think there is a subtle attack on their masculinity if they say they are a feminist, so they try to cloak their internal desire to help women with more gender neutral terms that doesn’t call their masculinity into play. Saying “I’m for equality” sounds much better than “I’m a feminist”, but it downplays or completely ignores the fact that women aren’t equal. You don’t try to stop vampire attacks by preventing both vampires and humans from biting. You tell vampires to cut that shit out ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/51 "2015-07-17T17:43:13Z")
> [@Slithy\_Tove](#): > > And if it were as simple as gay or racial rights, that would be that > > But for this issue, one side carries the fetus for nine months and the other does not. Accommodations can be made, and some will be seen as reasonable and long overdue, while others as unfair entitlements sought by self-serving advocates. It’s seriously not that big a deal. I can’t imagine why the 8 weeks that it took to recover from birth should determine my entire career trajectory. 8 weeks. And I had a longer recovery time because I had a C-Section. (Yes, I know some people have complications, but even women who have many kids would be hard pressed to put together a full year of time that they are biologically unable to work. Women being the ones to give birth is not the golden bullet explanation.) ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/52 "2015-07-17T18:05:11Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > A controversial thesis! > > All I can say, at the moment, is that traits that enable a society to survive when society is a few families in the jungle or tribes in the mountains may not be the same traits that are rewarded in a rich and prosperous modern society. > > So why be surprised when niches are exploited? I 100% agree with you: we’re now a species 7 billion strong. We’re no longer struggling for survival, or wondering where our next meal is coming from. So the “hard-wiring” we’ve inherited from our ancestors is not really appropriate to our current circumstances. But those circumstances are recent, compared to our existence as a species. Culture changes pretty quickly, sometimes, but evolution is very slow. I’m not sure what you mean by the last sentence. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/53 "2015-07-17T18:20:20Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > This is an interesting article from the New Republic in that vein. The writer calls for freeing women from the need for full time employment, since most women don’t want full time employment: > > [Liberate Women From Full-Time Work | The New Republic](http://www.newrepublic.com/article/122291/liberate-women-full-time-work) > > So is this feminism, or anti-feminism? I haven’t read the article: but I will. The answer to your question is that it’s feminism. Because feminism is whatever is best for women. If working best for women, it’s feminism. If not working is best for women, it’s feminism. Because feminism is whatever is best for women, according to women. It’s been awhile, so I may be misremembering, but almost all men (meaning men of working age who are able to work) are in the workforce. Something like 2/3rds of women are in the workforce. The reason, I think, is pretty simple: if you’re a man (and not rich) you pretty much have to be in the workforce. If you’re a woman, you may have other options. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/54 "2015-07-17T18:22:06Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > If feminism had a single consistent definition it could be argued for or against. But it doesn’t, it’s more of a Rorschach inkblot that reveals the biases of those who use the term. No, actually, it’s more of an inclusive label for several distinct and well-developed schools of thought. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/55 "2015-07-17T18:43:36Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > I > It’s been awhile, so I may be misremembering, but almost all men (meaning men of working age who are able to work) are in the workforce. Something like 2/3rds of women are in the workforce. The reason, I think, is pretty simple: if you’re a man (and not rich) you pretty much have to be in the workforce. If you’re a woman, you may have other options. In the workforce as in having a job or looking for one? Maybe. In the workforce as in working, no. Plus, which women are not in the workforce? In the old, pre-feminist days women with older kids still stayed home. Today I’d suspect far more women who stay home have young kids. Do you think that feminism says that this is more acceptable for women to do than men? I think I’d disagree. I think one can argue that having a parent stay home and give more attention to a kid than a childcare provider is good for society, but it should be a choice. I’d not argue it is necessarily good for a woman to do that. Why do I get the impression that you think that Leave it to Beaver is an example of a feminist utopia? ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/56 "2015-07-17T19:15:40Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > It’s seriously not that big a deal. I can’t imagine why the 8 weeks that it took to recover from birth should determine my entire career trajectory. 8 weeks. And I had a longer recovery time because I had a C-Section. > > (Yes, I know some people have complications, but even women who have many kids would be hard pressed to put together a full year of time that they are biologically unable to work. Women being the ones to give birth is not the golden bullet explanation.) The mechanics of reproduction are only a part of the issue. One side gets pregnant, the other does not. That effects every feminist issue. Want to prevent rape? Genetically modify men so that a possible consequence is _their_ getting pregnant. I’m sure you and your husband work very hard to establish equal co-parenting. But why is that such a chore for humans, and not for species like ducks? A personal experience of fucked up gender assignment: I and another man were evicted from a meetup group of widows and widowers last month. The organizer told me that men don’t experience emotions as profoundly as women, and our presence would inhibit their emotional processing. I honestly resent the assumption that I don’t have feelings. I resent even more the unintended implication that my wife, and all women, deserve a space where they can be grieved less than husbands deserve. Now, feminism had nothing to do with that bigoted decision. More likely an alpha-female made her meetup all her own little tea party. But you can’t tell me that women never play a gender privilege card of their own. ---
**Author:** ![thirdname](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d07c76/32.png) [@thirdname](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thirdname)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/57 "2015-07-17T20:14:58Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Anti-feminist isn’t the first thing that popped in to mind, but it is inaccurate and misleading. Being drunk doesn’t render a person unable to consent. A drunken “hookup” between enthusiastic partners is not rape. > > Being so drunk you are unconscious or unable to comprehend what is happening or speak coherently enough to say “no” does. And it’s not a “man-woman” thing. Men can also become so drunk that they are passed out or uncomprehending, and doing anything sexual with them is also rape. > > I’d prefer a poster that explains that, and recommends that positive consent (while not a legal necessarily) is a good best practice. That might be the criminal law for now, but would you tell that to feminists? They’re making posters such as the one linked to above, they’re teaching college students that you can’t consent when drunk, and they’re writing rules at colleges that drunk sex is rape and worthy of expulsion. In any relevant online discussion these days you will constantly hear “an intoxicated person cannot consent” which only applies to women of course. Try looking around Reddit for instance, this is ubiquitous. And affirmative consent isn’t just being suggested as a “best practice.” They’re making it a law in several states that colleges have to expel students if they don’t get it. Which will obviously only enforced against men. Under these rules, a college student who gives her boyfriend of 2 years a handjob while they both sit silently on the couch is guilty of sexual assault and should be expelled. They’re defining much or most normal sex as assault or rape, which will give college women the arbitrary power to have any current or former lovers expelled. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/58 "2015-07-17T20:31:22Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > It’s seriously not that big a deal. I can’t imagine why the 8 weeks that it took to recover from birth should determine my entire career trajectory. 8 weeks. And I had a longer recovery time because I had a C-Section. > > (Yes, I know some people have complications, but even women who have many kids would be hard pressed to put together a full year of time that they are biologically unable to work. Women being the ones to give birth is not the golden bullet explanation.) Not to mention that the amount of time a woman is out of action due to pregnancy is trivial compared to the number of years parenthood lasts. Only women can give birth, but anyone can be a parent. ---
**Author:** ![BrightSunshine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b3f665/32.png) [@BrightSunshine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightSunshine)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/59 "2015-07-17T20:42:57Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I I think one can argue that having a parent stay home and give more attention to a kid than a childcare provider is good for society There is no evidence that parental care is overall superior to licensed group childcare. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/60 "2015-07-17T21:27:02Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > So for instance, [this poster](http://i.imgur.com/cIiJ1Sy.jpg) is anti-feminist? In my opinion, yes. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390.md?page=4)