# Anti-Feminism **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 17, 2015, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390 "2015-07-17T06:05:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 33
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2015, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/641 "2015-07-29T23:42:09Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > This I won’t tolerate. Not only am I not angry, I’ll have you know I’m fully engorged as I type this. I’m suddenly less comfortable with my balloon imagery. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/642 "2015-07-30T00:01:55Z")
> [@Jack\_of\_Words](#): > > If you keep making posts that are about me, I’ll keep complaining about you. > > What a tiresome little gotcha you present. It’s eminently clear from the context of my remark that I’m not intending that remark to be taken seriously. It might also help to take into account that by anyones estimation, ‘good’ and ‘bad’ are relative terms. They’re not fixed, they’re not definitive. Your good may be my bad, and vice versa. A ‘good man’ may do bad things and a ‘bad man’ (he’ll be the one in the black hat) may do good things. > > But let’s look at that conclusion, which you claim is not logical (and then go on to claim that I have a done a ‘bad thing’ there than anything I have ever said or go on to say can be dismissed…oh hang on, you’ll just dismiss this, right?): > “I don’t care if you’re a feminist. I care that I’m a feminist and my husband is a feminist. I think that feminism is a good thing, so sure, I’m generally supportive of good people identifying as feminist.” > > The implication is clear. The poster is “generally supportive of good people identifying as a feminist” but doesn’t care if I do. She does not care about bad people identifying as a feminist. The implication, should you choose to accept it, is that I’m a bad person. Not that I’m making bad arguments, you notice, but that I’m a bad person. Attacking the poster, not the post - just as you have been doing. When do you use that badge you wear constantly? So, when you make a sarcastic comment, it is a sarcastic comment, but when I respond in kind, you are unable to discern the sarcasm. I am not surprised. Your failure of logic remains. The word “bad” does not appear anywhere in the post by **jsgoddess**. You introduced the word and then claimed it for yourself. If a poster said “_I don’t care if you’re a patriot. I care that I’m a patriot and my husband is a patriot. I think that patriotism is a good thing, so sure, I’m generally supportive of good people identifying as patriotic._” no one but a fool or someone looking for a fight would conclude from that that the poster was claiming that their correspondent was unpatriotic. If one has to insert words into a discussion in order to claim an accusation, one’s logic is irredeemably flawed. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_of\_Words](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f6c823/32.png) [@Jack\_of\_Words](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_of_Words)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/643 "2015-07-30T00:02:06Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > I don’t. I would love for you to not be a feminist. Fair enough - a hate movement has to have someone to hate, after all. I had supposed that reasons _I_ should be a feminist would be reasons any man or woman should be a feminist, but if you insist that some people (or perhaps just me) shouldn’t be a feminist, I’m just as interested in reasons why someone who should be a feminist should be a feminist. Unless you don’t have any of those either? > [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > This I won’t tolerate. Not only am I not angry, I’ll have you know I’m fully engorged as I type this. Good for you. It’s probably what distracted you from the other, more obvious, contextual use of the word ‘impotent’. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/644 "2015-07-30T00:13:41Z")
**Jack** , if you run bigger than a US size 14, I’ll have to do some digging. But there are some awfully cute numbers [here](http://www.crossdressingcloset.com/shop/footwear/). ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/645 "2015-07-30T00:13:44Z")
Would you like to persuade me that my chosen, non-obvious definition of the word isn’t the right one? ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_of\_Words](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f6c823/32.png) [@Jack\_of\_Words](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_of_Words)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/646 "2015-07-30T00:14:16Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > So, when you make a sarcastic comment, it is a sarcastic comment, but when I respond in kind, you are unable to discern the sarcasm. I am not surprised. See my earlier comments about this use of the word ‘so’ (as in “So, you’re _this_ strawman are you? Ahah!”) > [@tomndebb](#): > > Your failure of logic remains. Once again, I’ve overestimated my audience. That’s the third time, I must try harder to remember that some people need things spelled out in very simple terms. It has nothing to do with logic. You may certainly argue that my inference was poor (although I don’t think it was). > [@tomndebb](#): > > The word “bad” does not appear anywhere in the post by **jsgoddess**. You introduced the word and then claimed it for yourself. It’s the contextual opposite of ‘good’, which did appear. ‘Bad’ was not spelled out, in simple terms, you’re right. It was inferred, as demonstrated. > [@tomndebb](#): > > If a poster said “_I don’t care if you’re a patriot. I care that I’m a patriot and my husband is a patriot. I think that patriotism is a good thing, so sure, I’m generally supportive of good people identifying as patriotic._” no one but a fool or someone looking for a fight would conclude from that that the poster was claiming that their correspondent was unpatriotic. Well I came for a discussion, but you’d be right that there does seem to be a ‘fight’. You’d be wrong that I was looking for one, though I’m happy to bat back those attacks that have been the favoured approach of several posters. The ‘fight’ you think I was “looking for” was well underway by the time of the post you quote - you must surely recall? You’d thrown a few (metaphorical!) punches yourself, and I’d called you out on your poor posting behaviour. I’m no fool either, though I can excuse the fallacy of judging someone by the company they’re keeping… > [@tomndebb](#): > > If one has to insert words into a discussion in order to claim an accusation, one’s logic is irredeemably flawed. I think I spot a flaw in the ‘logic’ of that remark…but I also think we have very different understandings of the word. You seem to be using it as a generic insult, with no more meaning than “If you use inference to draw a reasonable conclusion, then your ideas are stupid you poopyhead”. Not that you used all of those words, of course… :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/647 "2015-07-30T00:16:50Z")
And I am a feminist because I support the advocacy of women’s rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men. That definition is sufficient to persuade me. I have no concerns if it does not persuade you. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_of\_Words](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f6c823/32.png) [@Jack\_of\_Words](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_of_Words)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/648 "2015-07-30T00:17:21Z")
> [@andros](#): > > **Jack** , if you run bigger than a US size 14, I’ll have to do some digging. But there are some awfully cute numbers [here](http://www.crossdressingcloset.com/shop/footwear/). Considerably bigger, alas - I’m not sure I’d ever truly have a use for a pair, but one likes to have the illusion of choice, at least. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_of\_Words](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f6c823/32.png) [@Jack\_of\_Words](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_of_Words)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/649 "2015-07-30T00:18:42Z")
> [@andros](#): > > And I am a feminist because I support the advocacy of women’s rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men. That definition is sufficient to persuade me. I have no concerns if it does not persuade you. That persuades me to be an egalitarian. It’s all the quacking and the eggs that put me off. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/650 "2015-07-30T00:19:58Z")
Oh, one last thing: > [@Jack\_of\_Words](#): > > Once again, I’ve overestimated my audience. That’s the third time, I must try harder to remember that some people need things spelled out in very simple terms. That you persist in chiding people for their “poor posting behavior” while contributing your own share of personal attacks speaks volumes about your willingness to actually have a reasonable discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_of\_Words](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f6c823/32.png) [@Jack\_of\_Words](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_of_Words)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/651 "2015-07-30T00:21:17Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > Would you like to persuade me that my chosen, non-obvious definition of the word isn’t the right one? I think it would be off-topic, leaving aside that you’re asking me to persuade you that I wasn’t really claiming that your anger couldn’t get an erection. You’re free to think that I believe an abstract emotion has external genitalia capable of tumescence, if it pleases you. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/652 "2015-07-30T00:24:33Z")
> [@Jack\_of\_Words](#): > > Considerably bigger, alas - I’m not sure I’d ever truly have a use for a pair, but one likes to have the illusion of choice, at least. Ah. I reckon the square-cube law would obviate the possibility of heels, or even decent strappy pumps for a guy your size, alas. Shame, that. But your ankles ought to be grateful. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/653 "2015-07-30T00:25:54Z")
> [@Jack\_of\_Words](#): > > It’s the contextual opposite of ‘good’, which did appear. ‘Bad’ was not spelled out, in simple terms, you’re right. It was inferred, as demonstrated.: Ahh! It was inferred, not implied. And since inference is the responsibility of the reader, not the author, you are still simply going out of your way to pick a fight that was not offered. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_of\_Words](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f6c823/32.png) [@Jack\_of\_Words](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_of_Words)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/654 "2015-07-30T00:28:17Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Oh, one last thing: > > That you persist in chiding people for their “poor posting behavior” while contributing your own share of personal attacks speaks volumes about your willingness to actually have a reasonable discussion. Do you promise? I chided one person for poor posting behaviour, and that for repeatedly egregious personal insults by an ‘off-duty’ moderator. ‘Persist’ is not quite the right word, anymore than ‘people’. I don’t believe what you quoted was a personal attack - merely an observation, though it was less charitably phrased than I might use in a different environment. It wouldn’t be accurate to say I tolerate fools badly, though I have less patience for fools who think themselves cleverer than they are. Countdown to that being reflected back at me…3…2… ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/655 "2015-07-30T00:28:28Z")
> [@Jack\_of\_Words](#): > > "If you use inference to draw a reasonable conclusion,. . . There is no evidence in this thread that you have ever drawn a reasonable conclusion based on your inferences. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_of\_Words](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f6c823/32.png) [@Jack\_of\_Words](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_of_Words)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/656 "2015-07-30T00:31:34Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Ahh! It was inferred, not implied. And since inference is the responsibility of the reader, not the author, you are still simply going out of your way to pick a fight that was not offered. Well played, sir. Even as I was typing I was thinking ‘do I mean inferred, or implied?’ I meant implied, but you have your win. Treasure it 😉 I’d question the misuse of logic in assuming that the implication was not there, since you’re not the author, but that would make me a sore loser. You won! ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_of\_Words](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f6c823/32.png) [@Jack\_of\_Words](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_of_Words)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/657 "2015-07-30T00:35:44Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > There is no evidence in this thread that you have ever drawn a reasonable conclusion based on your inferences. A bold claim, and of course one that can’t be supported by evidence - well, I suppose you could quote the entire thread, but that would be redundant. As an unsupportable claim, it amounts to a carnival-barking balloon game with creepy prizes (I expect someone will take _you_ to task too, for that sort of thing) and, of course, its primary purpose is as a personal attack. You keep making them, I’ll “persist” in “chiding” you for them. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/658 "2015-07-30T00:40:12Z")
> [@Jack\_of\_Words](#): > > ‘Persist’ is not quite the right word, anymore than ‘people’. Oh no? > [@Jack\_of\_Words](#): > > Are you addressing the arguer and not the argument? I thought that was frowned on on this board (though not so much in this thread…) > [@Jack\_of\_Words](#): > > No, that would still be addressing the arguer and not the argument. Perhaps another example of the error would help: “You’re not very good at this, are you?”… > > …No, you didn’t say anything about supporting feminism, you just attacked the arguer and not the argument. > [@Jack\_of\_Words](#): > > Ah, evidence. Try some. I know many ways to post. I respond to the content of your posts. If that seems barbed, well, it takes two to tango. Oh, and as an aside, you’re still just attacking the arguer. We know that you and I have different view points. Complaining that I don’t share yours is not an actual argument. > [@Jack\_of\_Words](#): > > Your post is very poor, not least because it attacks me and not what I say. Poor form, even for a bear. And also, just for funsies: > [@Jack\_of\_Words](#): > > I have less patience for fools who think themselves cleverer than they are. Fortunately, this sentiment is not share by everyone. Or so I’d _infer_, you clever large-footed man, you. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/659 "2015-07-30T00:51:38Z")
> [@Jack\_of\_Words](#): > > Can’t, at this point, recall what you’re waving away there, but I’m pretty sure it wasn’t. Sounds good though. Feel free to scroll up. You critique my standards for evidence, I ask you what claims you’re referring you, you never say, then you take a third or fourth shot at my “standards of evidence”, apropos of nothing in that post. It remains baffling. > [@Jack of Words](#): > > ‘Theoretically’, huh? 😃 So nobody, at all, could have believed in gender equality before the first ‘feminist’, or do we award the title retrospectively? More importantly, to me at least, when I say I’m not a feminist but nevertheless actively promote gender equality, are you calling me a liar, or is it just that you’re not wholly convinced I actually exist? I could be a bot, I suppose, or some sort of delusion? I simply lack the information necessary to make a judgment. You’ve said very little about your beliefs, other than criticisms of what you perceive feminism to be. > [@Jack of Words](#): > > Did I miss the hashtag? #killallfeminists? No, I don’t think I did, though I can’t say that the twitter hatred of #killallmen feminists bothers me that much. It’s only twitter, after all - who would be bothered it? Oh yeah, Sarkeesian etc (Oh the harassment!) Yes, harassment can be indicative of hatred. > [@Jack of Words](#): > > Did I miss the screaming, spitting, violent protests when feminists speak? No, but I’ve seen plenty when anyone tries to stand up and criticise them, or speak for the rights of men. Example of violent protests? > [@Jack of Words](#): > > What have I missed, with all this ‘anti-feminist’ hatred? I’ve witnessed much robust criticism, but that isn’t hatred. Nor is it harassment, by the by. Let’s see some examples - hey, we could start a game thread. You post an example, I post an example, and the one who runs out first loses… Harassment that’s [based on threats of rape and murder](http://www.vocativ.com/culture/society/anita-sarkeesian-threats/) is, in fact, hatred. [So is all this.](http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2012/spring/misogyny-the-sites) Then there’s “robust criticism” that amounts to the level of, say, this: > [@Jack of Words](#): > > I introduced the challenge to re-affirm my faith in feminism - and you ducked it. I can only assume it’s because you have no way of doing it (and stretch that to suppose you cynically support an untenable hate movement because you figure it’ll get you laid more often). But, that’s not hatred, granted, just poor debate. > [@Jack of Words](#): > > Did I miss your actual argument then? Why should I be a feminist? Take a tip from another poster earlier, you can duck the question by just saying 'we have enough [del]braiiiiiins[/del] [del]converts[/del] [del]whiteknights[/del] followers, we don’t even _need_ people like _you_". Evidently so, your post in reply snipped the summation in half and somehow concluded I was saying that you should be a feminist because I was. Here it is again: > [@](#): > > To your next question: why should you be a feminist? Because it’s a movement that, fringes aside, seeks gender equality, and has shown the ability to make real strides toward that equality. Feminism _works_. It seeks what you claim to want, and has shown a remarkable ability to achieve it. People organized under the mantle of feminism have made real, lasting progress toward gender equality. Can you and yours say the same? ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/660 "2015-07-30T02:07:16Z")
> [@Jack\_of\_Words](#): > > OK. Rebuttal A: do your homework. The suffragettes and suffragists fought for the right of privileged upper- and middle-class women to have the vote, leaving most men and women without it. > > How does that truth fit your ideology? Was this cite ever provided? I am curious, having had history courses in college, and my understanding that in this country, at least, the suffragettes fought for the right of women to vote. I apologize if the cite was provided and I missed it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390.md?page=32) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390.md?page=34)