# Anti-Feminism
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [July 17, 2015, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390 "2015-07-17T06:05:12Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 36
### Author:  [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)
#### Post date: [July 31, 2015, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/701 "2015-07-31T18:22:07Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#):
>
> Based on those first few posts, I don’t have any doubt that he was deliberately trying to be as ambiguous as he could about what precisely he was referencing. Providing clear cites, making sure cultural and country references are clear once you see that someone is not sure what the frame is, reiterating points clearly, etc.
>
> I went back through the posts in case I and other posters had missed the relevant details that would have made things clear, but those details are simply not there. “I’m not American” is not a sufficient notice that nothing else refers to American. Too many non-Americans have too much to say about America to make such an assumption.
>
> We’re left with someone who had a weak point about an irrelevant topic that he refused to clarify and disambiguate. And because it’s the dope, we spend hundreds of posts on it. Whee! 😃
Feminism is tyranny QED.
---
### Author:  [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)
#### Post date: [July 31, 2015, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/702 "2015-07-31T18:23:54Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#):
>
> Feminism is tyranny QED.
Well, duh.
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### Author:  [@Jack\_of\_Words](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_of_Words)
#### Post date: [July 31, 2015, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/703 "2015-07-31T18:28:06Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#):
>
> Based on those first few posts, I don’t have any doubt that he was deliberately trying to be as ambiguous as he could about what precisely he was referencing. Providing clear cites, making sure cultural and country references are clear once you see that someone is not sure what the frame is, reiterating points clearly, etc.
>
> I went back through the posts in case I and other posters had missed the relevant details that would have made things clear, but those details are simply not there. “I’m not American” is not a sufficient notice that nothing else refers to America. Too many non-Americans have too much to say about America to make such an assumption.
>
> We’re left with someone who had a weak point about an irrelevant topic that he refused to clarify and disambiguate. And because it’s the dope, we spend hundreds of posts on it. Whee! 😃
Despite your absence of doubt, you’re absolutely wrong. It takes some effort to twist everything into the conclusions you’ve erroneously (benefit of the doubt again) arrived at.
I personally don’t see the point as weak, nor could ‘votes for women’ possibly be irrelevant. Nor did I ‘refuse’ to clarify and disambiguate (anymore than anyone else sought clarification or disambiguation - I was personally unaware, before this thread, that the US also had suffragettes. So you can at least rest assured that some ignorance has been fought).
---
### Author:  [@Jack\_of\_Words](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_of_Words)
#### Post date: [July 31, 2015, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/704 "2015-07-31T18:34:44Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#):
>
> Feminism is tyranny QED.
As previously mentioned, the shift from a demand for equality of opportunity to a demand for an equality of outcome creates a requirement for a totalitarian response. So to some degree, yes, tyranny. It certainly looks tyrannical when it makes a scientist appear on television with a tearful apology for something that needs no apology. It looks tyrannical on twitter constantly, getting people hounded from their jobs for jokes. It looks like any other totalitarian tyranny at work, do you not think?
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### Author:  [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)
#### Post date: [July 31, 2015, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/705 "2015-07-31T18:37:30Z")
I don’t know.
Why didn’t women have the right to vote prior to the suffrage movement?
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### Author:  [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)
#### Post date: [July 31, 2015, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/706 "2015-07-31T18:39:05Z")
> [@Jack\_of\_Words](#):
>
> Despite your absence of doubt, you’re absolutely wrong. It takes some effort to twist everything into the conclusions you’ve erroneously (benefit of the doubt again) arrived at.
>
> I personally don’t see the point as weak, nor could ‘votes for women’ possibly be irrelevant. Nor did I ‘refuse’ to clarify and disambiguate (anymore than anyone else sought clarification or disambiguation - I was personally unaware, before this thread, that the US also had suffragettes. So you can at least rest assured that some ignorance has been fought).
So you made derisive and mocking statements about the posters who were unaware of the UK suffragettes, while being completely unaware of the U.S. suffrage movement? Even after the 19th Amendment was mentioned to you?
And yes, your refusal to provide a cite, instead choosing to mock and deride, is you refusing to clarify your point. Had you provided the cite when originally requested, there would have been no confusion about the point you were trying to make.
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### Author:  [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)
#### Post date: [July 31, 2015, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/707 "2015-07-31T18:40:08Z")
> [@Jack\_of\_Words](#):
>
> As previously mentioned, the shift from a demand for equality of opportunity to a demand for an equality of outcome creates a requirement for a totalitarian response. So to some degree, yes, tyranny. It certainly looks tyrannical when it makes a scientist appear on television with a tearful apology for something that needs no apology. It looks tyrannical on twitter constantly, getting people hounded from their jobs for jokes. It looks like any other totalitarian tyranny at work, do you not think?
You have an interesting notion of “tyranny.”
---
### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [July 31, 2015, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/708 "2015-07-31T19:21:00Z")
> [@Jack\_of\_Words](#):
>
> As previously mentioned, the shift from a demand for equality of opportunity to a demand for an equality of outcome creates a requirement for a totalitarian response. So to some degree, yes, tyranny. It certainly looks tyrannical when it makes a scientist appear on television with a tearful apology for something that needs no apology. It looks tyrannical on twitter constantly, getting people hounded from their jobs for jokes. It looks like any other totalitarian tyranny at work, do you not think?
This is tyranny?
Typical. Women are as bad at tyranny as they are at driving, math, and making decisions without getting all weepy.
---
### Author:  [@llcoolbj77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/llcoolbj77)
#### Post date: [July 31, 2015, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/709 "2015-07-31T19:24:18Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#):
>
> This is tyranny?
>
> Typical. Women are as bad at tyranny as they are at driving, math, and making decisions without getting all weepy.
Thank God this is the age I grew up in… where tyranny comes in the form of cyber bullying. 😃
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### Author:  [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)
#### Post date: [July 31, 2015, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/710 "2015-07-31T19:24:46Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#):
>
> This is tyranny?
>
> Typical. Women are as bad at tyranny as they are at driving, math, and making decisions without getting all weepy.
I am TOO a tyrant! I shall crush you and destroy… Oh! A commercial with kittens! _squee_
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### Author:  [@Jack\_of\_Words](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_of_Words)
#### Post date: [July 31, 2015, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/711 "2015-07-31T19:25:51Z")
> [@andros](#):
>
> You have an interesting notion of “tyranny.”
While you apparently have no notion of tyranny. At least not one you’re prepared to include in a post criticising mine. Which says much, I think. Most of what it says has been said before, right here, but it’s been ignored in favour of finding ways to manufacture outrage at _me_ rather then any particular idea, not least the idea that women are so unequal than can be put off from an honest and earnest interest in a career in science by a successful scientist wearing a shirt made for him by a woman.
Do please try to engage with the topic, it’s getting tiresome having to reply to posters who only want to shoot the messenger.
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### Author:  [@Jack\_of\_Words](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_of_Words)
#### Post date: [July 31, 2015, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/712 "2015-07-31T19:29:20Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#):
>
> This is tyranny?
>
> Typical. Women are as bad at tyranny as they are at driving, math, and making decisions without getting all weepy.
Hey two-eyes-four-eyes, thanks for showing up with an outrageous strawman. Yes, I think making someone apologise tearfully in public (for something that needs no apology) counts as tyranny. Address that, please, it would be so much more interesting than your shameful attempts to attach your pathetic and deceitful implication to me. Are you really suggesting we shouldn’t criticise feminism until they’ve built some gulags or camps or re-education programmes? I, for one, would prefer to stop tyranny before it got that far. YMMV.
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### Author:  [@Jack\_of\_Words](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_of_Words)
#### Post date: [July 31, 2015, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/713 "2015-07-31T19:34:35Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#):
>
> I am TOO a tyrant! I shall crush you and destroy… Oh! A commercial with kittens! _squee_
1. jsgoddess pleads for this thread to end
2. jsgoddess confirms that she has no interest in anything that might involve questioning or examining her orthodoxy
3. jsgoddess continues to contribute to this thread, with artificial arguments designed to bolster her orthodoxy in the minds of others
4. jsgoddess makes a joke about women that would get a man sacked by the tyrannical feminist twittermob
5. [I can’t mention it, it would be a breach of the rules. In fact, as I read them, that probably already was…but I think it’s only courteous, myself]
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### Author:  [@Jack\_of\_Words](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_of_Words)
#### Post date: [July 31, 2015, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/714 "2015-07-31T19:36:44Z")
> [@llcoolbj77](#):
>
> Thank God this is the age I grew up in… where tyranny comes in the form of cyber bullying. 😃
And getting people sacked in real life, and forcing a notable scientist, at the height of his triumph, to cry on television in a ‘show trial’. Real events. Real people. And I can’t help thinking you’d take a different view of the ‘cyber bullying’ of Sarkesian, for example.
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### Author:  [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)
#### Post date: [July 31, 2015, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/715 "2015-07-31T19:36:53Z")
> [@Jack\_of\_Words](#):
>
> While you’re here, we’ve established that suff’s (let’s save some typing)
This sums it up better than anything else. Notice how much more typing it actually took than just typing the word suffragette again?
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### Author:  [@Jack\_of\_Words](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_of_Words)
#### Post date: [July 31, 2015, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/716 "2015-07-31T19:44:31Z")
> [@Dissonance](#):
>
> This sums it up better than anything else. Notice how much more typing it actually took than just typing the word suffragette again?
But considerably less than repeatedly typing ‘suffragettes’ over and over again. See? If you think these things through…
[I’m not sure what you think it ‘sums up’ (though I’m pretty sure it’s still more about me than it is about the topic). At any rate, you can have this one for free: I’m fairly certain I haven’t since used “suffs” and actually _did_ type the whole word out every time. There you go, anyone who’s utterly uninterested in the _ideas_ can now usefully dismiss the bringer of them. Ideology saved! I expect a feminist will fuck you now, out of gratitude and all…]
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### Author:  [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)
#### Post date: [July 31, 2015, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/717 "2015-07-31T19:46:06Z")
If only anybody was asking you about your ideas, so you could address those. Poor Jack. ☹
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### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [July 31, 2015, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/718 "2015-07-31T19:49:04Z")
> [@Jack\_of\_Words](#):
>
> Yes, I think making someone apologise tearfully in public (for something that needs no apology) counts as tyranny. Address that, please, it would be so much more interesting than your shameful attempts to attach your pathetic and deceitful implication to me.
This was no straw-man – this was outright mockery.
As to supposedly making someone apologize for something that didn’t need one, I’ll contest that it didn’t warrant an apology, and that he was forced to do so.
> [@](#):
>
> Are you really suggesting we shouldn’t criticise feminism until they’ve built some gulags or camps or re-education programmes?
Speaking of straw men… no, I’m not suggesting this.
> [@](#):
>
> I, for one, would prefer to stop tyranny before it got that far. YMMV.
Me too – I’ll keep an eye out for some actual tyranny.
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### Author:  [@Jack\_of\_Words](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_of_Words)
#### Post date: [July 31, 2015, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/719 "2015-07-31T20:04:13Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#):
>
> If only anybody was asking you about your ideas, so you could address those. Poor Jack. ☹
No, as noted it’s much easier to try and cut the criticism at its source, by attacking the messenger (regardless of the notional ‘rules’ round here). What you’re actually saying here, of course, is “we’re all faithful adherents, awww, bet you feel bad now.” To which the answer is nope - and for your position to have any value you’d have to convince me that merely signing up for this board (as I did…) confirms the superiority of your intellect or your ideas. Also, we’ve covered why nobody is addressing the ideas. Do try to keep up.
LinusK, meanwhile, isn’t asking me about my ideas because he apparently shares them (despite the shameful and unfounded attempt to claim we’re ‘friends’, I really have no idea who he is or why he shares (broadly speaking) my view of feminism). As for anyone else who might be considering questioning the tyrannical orthodoxy, the treatment meted out to me from people who apparently think quite highly of their intellect but less highly of the rules for posting round here would be enough to silence a lot of them.
D-. Must try harder.
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### Author:  [@Jack\_of\_Words](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_of_Words)
#### Post date: [July 31, 2015, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/720 "2015-07-31T20:08:09Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#):
>
> This was no straw-man – this was outright mockery.
Of my position? In which case it _was_ a strawman. Of me? Tut tut…
> [@iiandyiiii](#):
>
> As to supposedly making someone apologize for something that didn’t need one, I’ll contest that it didn’t warrant an apology, and that he was forced to do so.
So, your position is that women are so pathetic they can be dissuaded from their career of choice by a shirt (that didn’t impact on the women also involved in that triumph, and who also appeared on the news?) I see now how easy it was for you to reach for that ‘strawman’.
> [@iiandyiiii](#):
>
> Me too – I’ll keep an eye out for some actual tyranny.
See above. I’d prefer to stop it early, rather than too late. Again, YMMV.
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