# Anti-Feminism
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [July 17, 2015, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390 "2015-07-17T06:05:12Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 37
### Author:  [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)
#### Post date: [July 31, 2015, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/721 "2015-07-31T20:14:08Z")
> [@Jack\_of\_Words](#):
>
> I note you didn’t include your post that I was responding to, choosing instead to claim that it didn’t deserve the response it got. I’m uninterested in hunting it down, but I expect it did warrant the response it got…not least because you didn’t quote it.
I did. See that little blue arrow. Next to your name. In the quote box? Click on it. It will take you back to the original post. In this case, the post you made this observation in. I’ll put it down to not knowing about the blue arrow.
> [@](#):
>
> I’ve certainly made enough comments relating to my understanding of feminism, my experience of it, and my criticism of it. There’s also the now-infamous tumblr post, which neatly collates much of what I would or could say. Did none of that ‘explain’ anything to you? Perhaps you could be more specific? Both as to why I should have to ‘explain’ it and what it is you want explained. Bear in mind I’m likely to point to that tumblr post - it’s no longer than a full explanation would be from me, so when you’re done with giving it an honest reading, let me know. I’ll buy you a pint to celebrate _your_ new-found freedom.
People have repeatedly asked you to explain your position about feminism or anti-feminism. Every. Single. Time. That you have asked to be convinced to change your mind about your stance. But you haven’t explained your position. You have pointed to a collation of other people’s work that may or may not support your position, WHICH YOU HAVEN’T EXPLAINED.
FTR I am as unlikely to gather an understanding of historical events from Tumblr as the Queen is to travel by Tube and eat at the local pub. Less actually. A more disorganized means of gathering anything other than images of polar bears gamboling in the snow I can’t imagine.
Congratulations. You have given me an entirely new appreciation of **LinusK** ’s position. I might not agree with it. But he has one. He laid it out. He had supporting evidence, which he provided. Well done **LinusK**.
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### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [July 31, 2015, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/722 "2015-07-31T20:19:45Z")
> [@Jack\_of\_Words](#):
>
> Of my position? In which case it _was_ a strawman. Of me? Tut tut…
Mockery and straw-manning are two different things. I was mocking your assertions about tyranny by comparing it to equally-silly assertions by misogynists (but not you) about women’s inferiority.
> [@](#):
>
> So, your position is that women are so pathetic they can be dissuaded from their career of choice by a shirt (that didn’t impact on the women also involved in that triumph, and who also appeared on the news?) I see now how easy it was for you to reach for that ‘strawman’.
No, Mr. Straw-Man, this is not my position. My position is maybe that the shirt was inappropriate and offensive in a minor way and he shouldn’t have worn it, and it was appropriate for him to apologize for wearing a minorly inappropriate and offensive shirt. No big deal. Apologizing isn’t a big deal. He’s a good scientist who made a minorly stupid mistake and apologized for it. Good for Matt Taylor, and I think he’s a good dude.
> [@](#):
>
> See above. I’d prefer to stop it early, rather than too late. Again, YMMV.
I oppose tyranny, and I support calling out the mistakes of public figures that can be hurtful (even if in a minor way), and I support those public figures who choose to apologize when they make a mistake.
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### Author:  [@Jack\_of\_Words](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_of_Words)
#### Post date: [July 31, 2015, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/723 "2015-07-31T20:23:55Z")
> [@ddsun](#):
>
> I did. See that little blue arrow. Next to your name. In the quote box? Click on it. It will take you back to the original post. In this case, the post you made this observation in. I’ll put it down to not knowing about the blue arrow.
So you claim that being able to track back to your post is the same as actually quoting your post? You’re wrong. You’re also wrong about not knowing about the blue arrow. I expect I’m right about you not including your post.
> [@ddsun](#):
>
> People have repeatedly asked you to explain your position about feminism or anti-feminism. Every. Single. Time. That you have asked to be convinced to change your mind about your stance. But you haven’t explained your position. You have pointed to a collation of other people’s work that may or may not support your position, WHICH YOU HAVEN’T EXPLAINED.
Oh but I have. CAPS are no more convincing than shouting. You’re wrong. And even if I do point to ‘other people’s work’, it’s just to save me time - if someone has collated most everything so well, why would I repeat the effort. Have you read it yet? Would you care to address anything in it? No? No kidding…
> [@ddsun](#):
>
> FTR I am as unlikely to gather an understanding of historical events from Tumblr as the Queen is to travel by Tube and eat at the local pub. Less actually. A more disorganized means of gathering anything other than images of polar bears gamboling in the snow I can’t imagine.
Me, I’d work with what I was given, rather than extending my criticism of the messenger to the criticism of his typeface. There are links there (as I’m tired of mentioning, to facts and truths and solid studies). That they appear on tumblr is only relevant if you wish to avoid the facts and truths and solid studies.
> [@ddsun](#):
>
> Congratulations. You have given me an entirely new appreciation of **LinusK** ’s position. I might not agree with it. But he has one. He laid it out. He had supporting evidence, which he provided. Well done **LinusK**.
So did I, and so did I. Alas, all the links to the facts and truths and solid studies were on a tumblr post. Go read them. Get back to me. Lay out a position a tad stronger than “you don’t agree with me, you poopyhead”.
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### Author:  [@Jack\_of\_Words](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_of_Words)
#### Post date: [July 31, 2015, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/724 "2015-07-31T20:29:48Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#):
>
> Mockery and straw-manning are two different things. I was mocking your assertions about tyranny by comparing it to equally-silly assertions by misogynists (but not you) about women’s inferiority.
>
> No, Mr. Straw-Man, this is not my position. My position is maybe that the shirt was inappropriate and offensive in a minor way and he shouldn’t have worn it, and it was appropriate for him to apologize for wearing a minorly inappropriate and offensive shirt. No big deal. Apologizing isn’t a big deal. He’s a good scientist who made a minorly stupid mistake and apologized for it. Good for Matt Taylor, and I think he’s a good dude.
>
> I oppose tyranny, and I support calling out the mistakes of public figures that can be hurtful (even if in a minor way), and I support those public figures who choose to apologize when they make a mistake.
Ok, Mr “It’s mockery when I do it and only a strawman when you do it” (that doesn’t help me spell your name at _all_). Let’s talk shirt. It was ‘offensive’. To whom? Whose taking of offence (a choice) must we be concerned with? Who must be made to cry for a “minor” inappropriate choice? Why was it ‘inappropriate’? (I can still only see 'because girls who are keen on science are so pathetic that they would be dissuaded from a career they’re passionate about by a shirt, even though the women we saw who contributed to that triumph weren’t put off by anything, let alone a shirt). Who actually complained about the shirt? Girls who get into science, or girls who have no interest in science but demand equality of outcome at any cost?
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### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [July 31, 2015, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/725 "2015-07-31T20:36:41Z")
> [@Jack\_of\_Words](#):
>
> Let’s talk shirt. It was ‘offensive’. To whom?
Lots of people, apparently. I’m sure lots of people were not offended by it too.
> [@](#):
>
> Whose taking of offence (a choice) must we be concerned with?
That’s entirely up to you, or to Matt Taylor, or to every individual. I try to listen to anyone who claims to be offended by something I’ve done – it’s very possible that they might have a point. And then I’ll evaluate the assertions on their merits.
> [@](#):
>
> Who must be made to cry for a “minor” inappropriate choice?
No one. I applaud Matt Taylor for choosing to apologize, and I have no problem if he felt emotional enough about his mistake and his apology to cry. Matt Taylor was not forced to apologize and the fact that he chose to apologize speaks well of him.
> [@](#):
>
> Why was it ‘inappropriate’? (I can still only see 'because girls who are keen on science are so pathetic that they would be dissuaded from a career they’re passionate about by a shirt, even though the women we saw who contributed to that triumph weren’t put off by anything, let alone a shirt).
In my opinion it was inappropriate because it appeared to objectify women. I think objectifying women, in general, is a negative thing (except between consenting adults who desire to be objectified) and should be avoided.
> [@](#):
>
> Who actually complained about the shirt? Girls who get into science, or girls who have no interest in science but demand equality of outcome at any cost?
From my understanding many men and women, both in and out of scientific fields, believed that the shirt was inappropriate and complained about it.
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### Author:  [@MyFootsZZZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MyFootsZZZ)
#### Post date: [July 31, 2015, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/726 "2015-07-31T21:05:03Z")
Ugh.
So I still don’t know how I feel about feminism. I think both sides of this issue have good points. Some “feminists” are way too radical for me; (The shirt that was worn that caused controversy, the dongle joke that was made that got someone fired, perhaps “elevator gate” - though I can sort of see where a Emma Watson was coming from.)
I hate cat-calling, I hate that women have to fight for their reproductive rights, I hate that there aren’t as many women in politics as there are men.
There’s no way I’m an Anti-feminist or an MRA.
I just want everyone to be happy and chill the f\*ck out. I don’t know how extremes on either side can be content, because they’re both so whinny and offended by every little thing. One shutters to think how SJW’s and MRA’s will ever be content.
As, (almost,) always, I’m not 100% sure on where I stand. If I’ve said anything that could be considered ignorant, my eyes are open, and I’m willing to read other people’s opinions.
I’ve followed this thread off and on for as long as it’s been around. Can’t we find some common ground? Do the feminists in this thread REALLY think that all actions made in the name of feminism is appropriate? Do the anti-feminists REALLY think that there’s not a lot we can work on to make the playing field more equal?
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### Author:  [@Jack\_of\_Words](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_of_Words)
#### Post date: [July 31, 2015, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/727 "2015-07-31T21:15:13Z")
Well good for you for actually having something other than _me_ to talk about.
> [@iiandyiiii](#):
>
> Lots of people, apparently. I’m sure lots of people were not offended by it too.
Apparently, the done thing is to demand actual numbers, and citations to prove it. I’d have thought you might have known that. I hate to do a jsgoddess, but I suspect your gracious acknowledgement that some people _weren’t_ offended actually means ‘some misogynist bigoted poopyheads weren’t offended’.
> [@iiandyiiii](#):
>
> That’s entirely up to you, or to Matt Taylor, or to every individual. I try to listen to anyone who claims to be offended by something I’ve done – it’s very possible that they might have a point. And then I’ll evaluate the assertions on their merits.
On _your_ merits, surely? I mean, you evaluate their assertions according to your criteria. For example, I’m offended by your post and demand a tearful apology, but I predict your evaluation will be “tough shit”.
> [@iiandyiiii](#):
>
> No one. I applaud Matt Taylor for choosing to apologize, and I have no problem if he felt emotional enough about his mistake and his apology to cry. Matt Taylor was not forced to apologize and the fact that he chose to apologize speaks well of him.
“Matt Taylor was not forced to apologise”. Citation needed. Were you there? I have no problem with emotion, by the way, but I do have a problem with show trials.
> [@iiandyiiii](#):
>
> In my opinion it was inappropriate because it appeared to objectify women.
Seriously? You can’t even commit. It ‘appeared’ to objectify women (though nobody cares about objectifying the pizza boy, whose only role is to bring pizza regardless if his complex inner life, nor about objectifying whichever hollywood hunk is flavour of the month). Yeah, let’s talk about objectification, before we casually accept it as a reason to make someone cry for wearing a shirt made by a woman (why didn’t she have to cry on television?).
I think objectifying women, in general, is a negative thing (except between consenting adults who desire to be objectified) and should be avoided.
> [@iiandyiiii](#):
>
> From my understanding many men and women, both in and out of scientific fields, believed that the shirt was inappropriate and complained about it.
On what basis? Leaving aside the whole 'Don’t judge women on what they wear! Judge male scientists on what they wear!" issue, what was inappropriate about the shirt? The argument I heard was that it might dissuade girls from getting into science (that’s the tyranny of equality of outcome that I mentioned before - I get that you might have difficulty grasping concepts outside your ideology, that’s common enough, but you’re a step ahead of most folk round here by at least talking about the issues rather than me. So consider that for a moment. The shirt was inappropriate because women are so weak, yet equal, that they can be dissuaded from something by a shirt that didn’t dissuade anyone who worked with him.)
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### Author:  [@Jack\_of\_Words](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_of_Words)
#### Post date: [July 31, 2015, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/728 "2015-07-31T21:19:56Z")
> [@MyFootsZZZ](#):
>
> Do the anti-feminists REALLY think that there’s not a lot we can work on to make the playing field more equal?
Well I’ve repeatedly said that I wholeheartedly support gender equality (though part of the difficulty is that I think men are owed some too). I’ll also mention that, for example, when it comes to equal parenting, some feminists have actively worked _against_ equality.
I can’t speak for anyone else, but I don’t think anyone has said that anti-feminism = anti-equality (though some of the feminists have implied it, I mean no antifeminist has said it).
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### Author:  [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)
#### Post date: [July 31, 2015, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/729 "2015-07-31T21:21:02Z")
> [@MyFootsZZZ](#):
>
> Do the feminists in this thread REALLY think that all actions made in the name of feminism is appropriate?
No. I’ve pointed out (I don’t know which post it was, but I can find it if you want) some criticisms I have of some feminist tendencies.
I also don’t support the idea, whether real or strawmanned (or both, because it can be a narrow viewpoint that people like the OP trumpet as mainstream), that women don’t need men, that men are in any way inherently violent or monstrous or poor at caregiving. I loathe and ridicule as bullshit claims that if women were in charge there would be no war. All sex is not rape. All men are not rapists in disguise. Women as a whole are not more noble, more kind, more empathetic, more forgiving, smarter, wiser, or better than men as a whole.
Every pushback against anti-woman sexism can go to far into ant-man sexism (that was a typo, but it made me laugh. Down with Paul Rudd!).
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### Author:  [@MyFootsZZZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MyFootsZZZ)
#### Post date: [July 31, 2015, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/730 "2015-07-31T21:22:51Z")
> [@Jack\_of\_Words](#):
>
> Well I’ve repeatedly said that I wholeheartedly support gender equality (though part of the difficulty is that I think men are owed some too). I’ll also mention that, for example, when it comes to equal parenting, some feminists have actively worked _against_ equality.
>
> I can’t speak for anyone else, but I don’t think anyone has said that anti-feminism = anti-equality (though some of the feminists have implied it, I mean no antifeminist has said it).
So Feminism = anti-equality?
Or just some SJW’s who whine about things in the name of feminism?
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### Author:  [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)
#### Post date: [July 31, 2015, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/731 "2015-07-31T21:22:57Z")
> [@Jack\_of\_Words](#):
>
> 1. jsgoddess makes a joke about women that would get a man sacked by the tyrannical feminist twittermob
Your joke is funnier than mine. I guess it’s true that women aren’t funny!
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### Author:  [@MyFootsZZZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MyFootsZZZ)
#### Post date: [July 31, 2015, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/732 "2015-07-31T21:25:27Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#):
>
> No. I’ve pointed out (I don’t know which post it was, but I can find it if you want) some criticisms I have of some feminist tendencies.
>
> I also don’t support the idea, whether real or strawmanned (or both, because it can be a narrow viewpoint that people like the OP trumpet as mainstream), that women don’t need men, that men are in any way inherently violent or monstrous or poor at caregiving. I loathe and ridicule as bullshit claims that if women were in charge there would be no war. All sex is not rape. All men are not rapists in disguise. Women as a whole are not more noble, more kind, more empathetic, more forgiving, smarter, wiser, or better than men as a whole.
>
> Every pushback against anti-woman sexism can go to far into ant-man sexism (that was a typo, but it made me laugh. Down with Paul Rudd!).
So why aren’t rational feminists like yourself more vocal about where some people are taking the movement?
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### Author:  [@Jack\_of\_Words](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_of_Words)
#### Post date: [July 31, 2015, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/733 "2015-07-31T21:26:24Z")
> [@MyFootsZZZ](#):
>
> So Feminism = anti-equality?
>
> Or just some SJW’s who whine about things in the name of feminism?
Ah, the rule of ‘so’. No, I think some people who claim to be feminists (and apparently anyone who says they are, is - hence my being a feminist anti-feminist earlier) genuinely do want true equality. Which is why I’d encourage them not to be feminists…
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### Author:  [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)
#### Post date: [July 31, 2015, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/734 "2015-07-31T21:28:02Z")
> [@MyFootsZZZ](#):
>
> So why aren’t rational feminists like yourself more vocal about where some people are taking the movement?
First, because I don’t think they are taking “the movement” anywhere. There have always been twits saying twitty things, and there will always be.
Second, have you read this thread? You say you have, but now I’m being accused of not being vocal, which I find hilarious and sad in equal measure.
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### Author:  [@MyFootsZZZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MyFootsZZZ)
#### Post date: [July 31, 2015, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/735 "2015-07-31T21:30:04Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#):
>
> First, because I don’t think they are taking “the movement” anywhere. There have always been twits saying twitty things, and there will always be.
>
> Second, have you read this thread? You say you have, but now I’m being accused of not being vocal, which I find hilarious and sad in equal measure.
I’ve read most of the thread… not all.
And… I’m just asking questions here, but, I didn’t mean ‘in this thread’, I meant in general.
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### Author:  [@MyFootsZZZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MyFootsZZZ)
#### Post date: [July 31, 2015, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/736 "2015-07-31T21:33:53Z")
I also didn’t mean you specifically, I just meant feminists like you. Sorry for the confusion.
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### Author:  [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)
#### Post date: [July 31, 2015, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/737 "2015-07-31T21:43:57Z")
> [@MyFootsZZZ](#):
>
> I’ve read most of the thread… not all.
>
> And… I’m just asking questions here, but, I didn’t mean ‘in this thread’, I meant in general.
I’ve been vocal about it, and I’ve seen others do it as well. Disagreement has always been a part of the movement, as with any other mass movement or ideology.
That’s been part of the problem with the OPs position. He seems to hold feminism itself responsible for the “incoherence”. However he has no problem simply disavowing the words and actions of openly misogynistic and violent anti-feminists, and wants his anti-feminist ideas presented here to be judged on the merits alone.
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### Author:  [@MyFootsZZZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MyFootsZZZ)
#### Post date: [July 31, 2015, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/738 "2015-07-31T21:46:21Z")
> [@camille](#):
>
> I’ve been vocal about it, and I’ve seen others do it as well. Disagreement has always been a part of the movement, as with any other mass movement or ideology.
>
> That’s been part of the problem with the OPs position. He seems to hold feminism itself responsible for the “incoherence”. However he has no problem simply disavowing the words and actions of openly misogynistic and violent anti-feminists, and wants his anti-feminist ideas presented here to be judged on the merits alone.
That’s fair. I would agree with you.
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### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [July 31, 2015, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/739 "2015-07-31T22:23:25Z")
> [@Jack\_of\_Words](#):
>
> Apparently, the done thing is to demand actual numbers, and citations to prove it. I’d have thought you might have known that.
Numbers and citations to prove what?
> [@](#):
>
> I hate to do a jsgoddess, but I suspect your gracious acknowledgement that some people _weren’t_ offended actually means ‘some misogynist bigoted poopyheads weren’t offended’.
Nope – I’m not entirely sure that I’m offended by the shirt.
> [@](#):
>
> On _your_ merits, surely? I mean, you evaluate their assertions according to your criteria. For example, I’m offended by your post and demand a tearful apology, but I predict your evaluation will be “tough shit”.
What part of my post offends you? If I said something offensive I would certainly consider apologizing.
> [@](#):
>
> “Matt Taylor was not forced to apologise”. Citation needed. Were you there? I have no problem with emotion, by the way, but I do have a problem with show trials.
Okay, it’s possible that he was forced to apologize. It’s also possible that a lizard-person took over Matt Taylor’s identity after consuming him, and faked human emotions and an apology for his own nefarious lizard purpose.
For me to accept either claim as factual, I’d need evidence. Without such evidence I assume that he chose to take the actions that he took. I assume that he chose to wear the shirt, even though I have no proof for certain that he wasn’t forced to wear that shirt by the evil feminists to set him up, and I also assume he chose to apologize, even though I have no proof for certain that his family wasn’t secretly taken hostage and threatened until he apologizes.
So you’re right, there’s a possibility that he was forced to apologize.
> [@](#):
>
> Seriously? You can’t even commit. It ‘appeared’ to objectify women (though nobody cares about objectifying the pizza boy, whose only role is to bring pizza regardless if his complex inner life, nor about objectifying whichever hollywood hunk is flavour of the month). Yeah, let’s talk about objectification, before we casually accept it as a reason to make someone cry for wearing a shirt made by a woman (why didn’t she have to cry on television?).
I haven’t accepted your zero-evidence assertion that anyone was made to cry for wearing a shirt, so that part is irrelevant.
As to the objectification, in my view depictions of scantily-clad women as primarily objects of male sexual desire is objectification, and in my opinion that shirt may qualify.
> [@](#):
>
> On what basis? Leaving aside the whole 'Don’t judge women on what they wear! Judge male scientists on what they wear!" issue, what was inappropriate about the shirt?
That it may have displayed women in an objectifying way.
> [@](#):
>
> The argument I heard was that it might dissuade girls from getting into science (that’s the tyranny of equality of outcome that I mentioned before - I get that you might have difficulty grasping concepts outside your ideology, that’s common enough, but you’re a step ahead of most folk round here by at least talking about the issues rather than me. So consider that for a moment. The shirt was inappropriate because women are so weak, yet equal, that they can be dissuaded from something by a shirt that didn’t dissuade anyone who worked with him.)
That’s not the argument I’ve heard – I’ve heard that acceptance of objectifying images of women might contribute to an environment that may make some women feel less welcome to contribute, just as acceptance of racist imagery might contribute to an environment that may make individuals of various minorities feel less welcome. I believe this is a negative thing and should be avoided.
So this was not a huge deal. Matt Taylor wore a shirt that maybe he shouldn’t have, then apparently he agreed with some criticism that he shouldn’t have worn the shirt, and made (what seemed to me to be, anyway) an honest apology. Good for scientist Matt Taylor, and I wish him well in his future endeavors.
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### Author:  [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)
#### Post date: [July 31, 2015, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/740 "2015-07-31T23:09:56Z")
> [@MyFootsZZZ](#):
>
> And… I’m just asking questions here, but, I didn’t mean ‘in this thread’, I meant in general.
We are very vocal. Some people don’t want to hear it, and will ignore the rational voices in favor of cranks. This thread is “in general,” really. And in the next thread LinusK starts, he will probably trot out exactly the same lines he’s used in this thread and say “If women were for equality, they would talk about prison rape. But you don’t hear that.”
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