# Anti-Feminism
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [July 17, 2015, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390 "2015-07-17T06:05:12Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 44
### Author:  [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)
#### Post date: [August 6, 2015, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/861 "2015-08-06T02:12:44Z")
> [@Rune](#):
>
> …which was quickly totally discredited when it was released (sample size of 72, from one class at one university, dubious questions, etc.) I’ve seen surveys with a higher and more representative sample size, which showed a higher percentage of Americans think the world is flat. Just another example of how feminists insist on using bogus statistics and surveys. In any case, a good part of humanity (men and women) would visit a great deal of harm on other humans if there were no consequences. It’s just the way we are.
Thanks for saving me the trouble, and the time.
My experience with looking at studies is that feminists are quick to trumpet ridiculous findings like this: while phoning in bomb threats to people who do real research, and come up with numbers they don’t like.
Ever heard of [Erin Pizzey](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erin_Pizzey)? The link is to her Wikipedia entry, or you can just google her name.
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### Author:  [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)
#### Post date: [August 6, 2015, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/862 "2015-08-06T02:13:52Z")
> [@LinusK](#):
>
> My experience with looking at studies is that feminists are quick to trumpet ridiculous findings like this: while phoning in bomb threats to people who do real research, and come up with numbers they don’t like.
Nice.
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### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [August 6, 2015, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/863 "2015-08-06T02:26:11Z")
I’m not aware of that survey having been discredited, unless having people on the Internet saying “that survey sucks” counts as discrediting.
Still waiting for a response from \*\*LinusK \*\* about the shirtgate stuff.
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### Author:  [@GrumpyBunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrumpyBunny)
#### Post date: [August 6, 2015, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/864 "2015-08-06T04:16:55Z")
> [@Rune](#):
>
> I don’t care to second guess other people. What they do with the knowledge is up to themselves. Presumable many will use it to demand a divorce and termination of child support (& contact) – requiring another test by a state sanctioned service provider; others may chose other options. I don’t know and don’t really care either way. The important thing is that the state has absolutely no business going out and actively prevent cuckolded men from discovering the truth – like you know, how it is in most nations.
>
> Beyond that, then I personally think it should be possible to sue the deceiving mother for fraud and force her to pay back any child payments which may have been made while the couple were separated. Perhaps a cause for feminists?
It’s not necessarily that simple, depending on the state. If a couple is married, the husband is presumed to be the father of a child born during that marriage. Even if DNA shows otherwise later, the child is still legally considered the offspring of the man married to the mother.
If a divorce occurs and you don’t deny paternity, you’re pretty much stuck with child support, even if a DNA test is taken later.
If a couple is not married and a man puts his name on the child’s birth certificate and treats that child as his own, that again is taken into consideration and can be difficult to undo, even with DNA testing.
But overall, once the court has ruled that you’re the father of a child, it is not easy to change it.
Again, specifics vary from state to state.
---
### Author:  [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)
#### Post date: [August 6, 2015, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/865 "2015-08-06T13:49:13Z")
> [@LinusK](#):
>
> That’s true. I’m thinking of some other movies… Harry Potter, Jacob’s Ladder, Game of Thrones (technically not a movie), Unforgiven, Gran Torino, Shane, Out of Africa, Sid & Nancy… but none of these really fit the womyn’s studies template you described.
>
> The Princess Bride comes closest, which I’ve already mentioned. Perhaps you can think of some.
Meaning movies where the protagonist kills people, and gets a passive woman as his reward? I want to make sure we agree on terms before I start listing.
> [@LinusK](#):
>
> That’s sort of the point: if the template you described was accurate, Reese would have killed the Terminator, and Sarah would have been his reward. That’s not what happened.
Maybe Cameron didn’t want to make the same gender boilerplate; maybe he wanted a tidy conclusion where everything from the future was destroyed. In either case, one film (or even two by the same director) does not a trend make.
> [@LinusK](#):
>
> I would have thought that a movie could have more than one protagonist. But either way, it still doesn’t fit the model. Because even if you want to say Sarah was the protagonist, that only makes it worse. The protagonist, according to womyn’s studies, is supposed to be a man.
They can, sure. I’d argue that Sarah is the sole protagonist of this particular film, as she has a story arc, and Reese doesn’t - he’s a static character.
As for “the protagonist is supposed to be a man”…you aren’t going to argue that male protagonists aren’t more common, are you? Let’s glance at recent successful films, shall we (ie, top-10 grossing, thus with the largest cultural footprint):
[2014:](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_in_film) 7 male, 2 female, 1 ensemble.
[2013:](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_in_film) 6 male, 3 female, 1 ensemble.
[2012:](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_in_film) 6 male, 1 female, 3 ensemble.
[2011:](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_in_film) 6 male, 0 female, 4 ensemble.
[2010:](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_in_film) 7 male, 3 female.
> [@LinusK](#):
>
> Finally, Sarah quickly became as violent as Reese, once she learned the skills.
Yes, she did.
> [@LinusK](#):
>
> OK. That’s one interpretation. Another is that Rose survived because Cameron was making an effort to appeal to female viewers: if she’d died, it wouldn’t have been romantic.
I don’t know about that, Romeo & Juliet is a paragon of romance, is it not? And Jack living would be just as appealing, for box-office purposes.
> [@LinusK](#):
>
> It’s true she doesn’t earn the reward, but she nevertheless got it.
>
> To paraphrase Calvin (of Calvin & Hobbes) “I never knew anyone who couldn’t live with it.” (Getting a reward s/he didn’t earn.)
>
> It’s worth remembering, Wesley took ridiculous risks to learn the skills that allowed him to save Buttercup, (“Nice work, Wesley. I’ll most likely kill you in the morning.”) And experienced excruciating pain (including being “mostly dead”) along the way. YMMV, but I’d rather wait in the castle. Especially in the real world, where there’s no such thing as “mostly dead.” There’s only “dead.”
It’s almost like Buttercup is more of an object than a character, isn’t it? An ornament, if you will?
> [@LinusK](#):
>
> Anyway, the moral, if there is one, is that skills and confidence are earned through hard work and sacrifice. Does feminism demand hard work and sacrifice from women? Or does it demand that everyone and everything else to change to accommodate them? Is it concerned about getting women into logging, construction, or working on oil rigs? Or is it mostly concerned about getting women into the plum jobs at the top of the pyramid?
Actually, I read an article not long ago complaining that women in construction were mainly limited to the low-paying, dead-end “flagger” position. I can’t find that one, but here’s a [feminist article bemoaning a lack of opportunity for women in construction.](http://www.nwlc.org/press-release/women-make-only-26-percent-construction-workers-and-experience-high-levels-sexual-hara)
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### Author:  [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)
#### Post date: [August 6, 2015, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/866 "2015-08-06T15:12:15Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#):
>
> It’s almost like Buttercup is more of an object than a character, isn’t it? An ornament, if you will?
It is pretty amazing that of the whole universe of things to talk about that have people with genders in them, the example that he’s choosing to spotlight to point out how we glorify women is: how much of a badass hero the fictional Dread Pirate Roberts is, and how much crazy shit he overcomes by being strong and smart and super sweet, vs. how useless Buttercup is and how little she does besides be pretty, in a made up story for our entertainment.
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### Author:  [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)
#### Post date: [August 6, 2015, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/867 "2015-08-06T15:18:38Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#):
>
> It is pretty amazing that of the whole universe of things to talk about that have people with genders in them, the example that he’s choosing to spotlight to point out how we glorify women is: how much of a badass hero the fictional Dread Pirate Roberts is, and how much crazy shit he overcomes by being strong and smart and super sweet, vs. how useless Buttercup is and how little she does besides be pretty, in a made up story for our entertainment.
In a thread where he complains that feminists sometimes talk about trivial shit.
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### Author:  [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)
#### Post date: [August 6, 2015, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/868 "2015-08-06T15:35:39Z")
Might as well keep going…
[2009:](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_in_film) 8 male, 1 female, 1 ensemble
[2008:](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_in_film) 6 male, 1 female, 2 ensemble, 1 robot
[2007:](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_in_film) 8 male, 0 female, 2 ensemble
[2006:](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_in_film) 6 male, 0 female, 4 ensemble
[2005:](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_in_film) 7 male, 0 female, 3 ensemble
[2004:](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_in_film) 7 male, 0 female, 3 ensemble
[2003:](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_in_film) 7 male, 0 female, 3 ensemble
[2002:](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_in_film) 8 male, 1 female, 1 ensemble
[2001:](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_in_film) 7 male, 0 female, 3 ensemble
[2000:](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_in_film) 8 male, 0 female, 2 ensemble
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### Author:  [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)
#### Post date: [August 6, 2015, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/869 "2015-08-06T16:47:36Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#):
>
> [2008:](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_in_film) 6 male, 1 female, 2 ensemble, 1 robot
Though to be fair, the robot in question was pretty clearly presented as male, with an ostensibly female love interest.
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### Author:  [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)
#### Post date: [August 6, 2015, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/870 "2015-08-06T17:02:36Z")
> [@andros](#):
>
> Though to be fair, the robot in question was pretty clearly presented as male, with an ostensibly female love interest.
I haven’t actually seen _WALL-E_, hence hedging on the gender issue. Thanks for the additional information. In general, I tried to be charitable to the opposition in my categorizations; for example, the _Ice Age_ and _Madagascar_ franchises are heavily male, but since there are female characters with nominally equal weight in the proceedings, I classed them as ensembles.
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### Author:  [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)
#### Post date: [August 6, 2015, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/871 "2015-08-06T17:32:01Z")
> [@Rune](#):
>
> …which was quickly totally discredited when it was released (sample size of 72, from one class at one university, dubious questions, etc.) I’ve seen surveys with a higher and more representative sample size, which showed a higher percentage of Americans think the world is flat.
It’s hardly the only study.
Here’s [Lisak and Miller, (2002), Repeat Rape and Multiple Offending among Undetected Rapists](http://www.davidlisak.com/wp-content/uploads/pdf/RepeatRapeinUndetectedRapists.pdf):
[quote]
Pooling data from four samples in which 1,882 men were assessed for acts of interpersonal violence, we report on 120 men whose self-reported acts met legal definitions of rape or attempted rape, but who were never prosecuted by criminal justice authorities. A majority of these undetected rapists were repeat rapists, and a majority also commited other acts of interpersonal violence. The repeat rapists averaged 5.8 rapes each./quote]
Helpfully, they also cite other studies which come to similar findings:
> [@](#):
>
> Yet, studies of unreported rape, mainly on college samples, indicate that from 6% to 14.9% of men report acts that meet legal definitions for rape or attempted rape (Collings, 1994; Greendlinger & Byrne, 1987; Koss, Leonard, Beezley, & Oros, 1985; Koss, Gidycz, & Wisniewski, 1987; Krahe, 1998; Lisak & Roth, 1988; Merrill et aI., 1998; Mosher & Anderson, 1986; Ouimette & Riggs, 1998; Rubenzahl & Corcoran, 1998).
.
I looked up some abstracts:
Collings:
> [@](#):
>
> The prevalence of sexual aggression was examined in a non-forensic sample of 393 university males. A history of sexually abusive behaviour was reported by 25% of respondents, with six per cent reporting an act of sexual aggresssion that met the legal definition of rape or attempted rape. The results of a discriminant analysis indicated a significant relationship between sexually abusive behaviour and attitudes supportive of sexual dominance and aggression. These findings are discussed in terms of their implications for research and primary prevention.
Koss, Gidycz, & Wisniewski, 1987
> [@](#):
>
> Because of inadequacies in the methods used to measure sexual assault, national crime statistics, criminal victimization studies, convictions, or incarceration rates fail to reflect the true scope of rape. Studies that have avoided the limitations of these methods have revealed very high rates of overt rape and lesser degrees of sexual aggression. The goal of the present study was to extend previous work to a national basis. The Sexual Experiences Survey was administered to a national sample of 6,159 women and men enrolled in 32 institutions representative of the diversity of higher education settings across the United States. Women’s reports of experiencing and men’s reports of perpetrating rape, attempted rape, sexual coercion, and sexual contact were obtained, including both the rates of prevalence since age 14 and of incidence during the previous year. The findings support published assertions of high rates of rape and other forms of sexual aggression among large normal populations. Although the results are limited in generalizability to postsecondary students, this group represents 26% of all persons aged 18–24 in the United States. (PsycINFO Database Record (c) 2012 APA, all rights reserved)
Merril et al:
> [@](#):
>
> 1,832 female (aged 17–34 yrs) and 1,754 male (aged 17–34 yrs) U.S. Navy recruits were surveyed for premilitary histories of adult sexual assault. Ss completed a survey designed to estimate rates for experiences as victims (females) and perpetrators (males) of attempted and completed rape since the age of 14 yrs. Results show that 45.5% of the females reported being the victim of attempted (9.4%) or completed rape (36.1%) before entering the Navy. Male recruits’ self-reports indicated that 14.8% admitted perpetrating attempted (3.5%) or completed rape (11.3%) before entering the Navy. Female victims of sexual assault are at high risk of incurring somatic and/or psychological problems that require treatment by health care professionals. Male perpetrators of sexual assault are at high risk of repeating their behavior. The results of this study suggest that it may be cost-effective to develop treatment, education, and prevention programs for military recruits.
There have been a lot of studies. They consistently show the same thing - a disturbingly high percentage of young men who freely admit to being rapists. Far from “singling out innocents” it seems likely that mandatory anti-rape seminars are ensuring that these young men (and a presumed further number who share the same attitudes to sexual violence but have not yet had the opportunity to act upon them) are at least in possession of a clear understanding of what the law is. It may even suggest to them that a different approach would be wiser. Given that they are likely to rape again, this seems worthwhile.
On the other hand, won’t someone think of the poor innocent men who’s precious honour is so deeply insulted? It’s a fine balance, to be sure.
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### Author:  [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)
#### Post date: [August 6, 2015, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/872 "2015-08-06T17:40:18Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#):
>
> So this thread is going down in flames (well, I guess it started there) but can we point to any progress? I’ll pick a discrete example: LinusK, are you willing to concede that some feminists talk about prison rape?
Still would love an answer to this one. LinusK, you’ve claimed in multiple threads that feminists don’t talk about prison rape. I and others have posted links to feminists talking about prison rape. Will you concede that feminists talk about prison rape?
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### Author:  [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)
#### Post date: [August 6, 2015, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/873 "2015-08-06T19:31:14Z")
I listed to evidence of the NOW acting against prison rape. Not just talking, but making a difference.
Water off a grebe’s back.
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### Author:  [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)
#### Post date: [August 6, 2015, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/874 "2015-08-06T19:51:08Z")
> [@LinusK](#):
>
> Or by promoting the idea that we live in a “rape culture” by getting [young women to walk around undressed](http://photos.thechicagostar.com/Destinations/2013-Destinations/September-2013/7-Sept-2013-Slutwalk/) to draw attention to “slut walks”. (That we live in a “rape culture” is especially silly, given that rape is the second most serious crime there is, after actually killing someone.) That feminists are not particularly concerned about prison rape - rape that happens primarily to men - perhaps goes without saying.
> [@jsgoddess](#):
>
> Here we go again.
>
> YOU don’t see that. In a previous thread, you were shown where feminists talk about these things. You made up reasons that it didn’t count.
>
> YOU don’t see that because YOU refuse to see that, even when it’s pointed out to you.
>
> YOU don’t see that because YOU seem to have some issues bound up with feminism and YOU are incapable of looking beyond that.
>
> YOU don’t see that. YOU.
> [@LinusK](#):
>
> Show me feminists who’re trying to stop prison rape.
>
> \
>
> Do it, and I’ll admit I’m wrong: and that feminism is really about equality after all.
> [@even\_sven](#):
>
> Let’s start with prison rape. This is from the first two pages of a Google search for “feminism prison rape”:
>
> [Why We Need to Stop Justifying Prison Rape Against People Who Commit Violent Crimes - Everyday Feminism](http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/04/stop-justifying-prison-rape/)
>
> [Prison Rape | Vegan Feminist Network](http://veganfeministnetwork.com/tag/prison-rape/)
>
> [http://m.nsvrc.org/blogs/feminist-justice-spotlight-rape-detention](http://m.nsvrc.org/blogs/feminist-justice-spotlight-rape-detention)
>
> [Daily Kos](http://m.dailykos.com/story/2014/12/10/1350712/-Random-Rant-Prison-rape-IS-rape-culture)
>
> [The Feministing Five: Lovisa Stannow](http://feministing.com/2014/03/15/the-feministing-five-lovisa-stannow/)
>
> What’s hilarious is that the majority of the rest of the links are MRA trying to play “gotcha” with the issue of prison rape.
> [@jsgoddess](#):
>
> Here is written testimony by a woman I know who is an expert on prison rape, including male victims of female guards:
>
> [http://ojp.gov/reviewpanel/pdfs/WrittenTestimonyofKimBuchanan.pdf](http://ojp.gov/reviewpanel/pdfs/WrittenTestimonyofKimBuchanan.pdf)
>
> She is a feminist, a woman of color, and an attorney and this is her field of expertise.
>
> And [here](http://crim.jotwell.com/violence-against-men-in-prison-and-out/) is a review of another of Kim’s articles.
> [@Trinopus](#):
>
> [That one, at least, is easy.](http://now.org/blog/how-feminism-and-now-have-helped-men/) NOW (National Organization for Women) has worked to oppose prison rape, and lobbied for law against it.
>
> "Ending sexual and domestic violence
>
> Feminism has fought against sexual violence, including sexual violence against men. Feminists fought to change the federal definition of rape to include male victims, they fought for the Prison Rape Elimination Act of 2003, and they continue to fight to end sexual violence in the military."
> [@jsgoddess](#):
>
> And in the next thread LinusK starts, he will probably trot out exactly the same lines he’s used in this thread and say “If women were for equality, they would talk about prison rape. But you don’t hear that.”
> [@jsgoddess](#):
>
> So this thread is going down in flames (well, I guess it started there) but can we point to any progress? I’ll pick a discrete example: LinusK, are you willing to concede that some feminists talk about prison rape?
> [@jsgoddess](#):
>
> Still would love an answer to this one. LinusK, you’ve claimed in multiple threads that feminists don’t talk about prison rape. I and others have posted links to feminists talking about prison rape. Will you concede that feminists talk about prison rape?
> [@Trinopus](#):
>
> I listed to evidence of the NOW acting against prison rape. Not just talking, but making a difference.
>
> Water off a grebe’s back.
No reply, LinusK? Here are the posts. I’ve made them very accessible.
---
### Author:  [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)
#### Post date: [August 6, 2015, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/875 "2015-08-06T19:58:38Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#):
>
> I haven’t actually seen _WALL-E_
☹
Why do you hate America?
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### Author:  [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)
#### Post date: [August 6, 2015, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/876 "2015-08-06T20:01:27Z")
> [@andros](#):
>
> ☹
>
> Why do you hate America?
Because I’m a feminist, obviously.
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### Author:  [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)
#### Post date: [August 6, 2015, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/877 "2015-08-06T20:02:46Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#):
>
> Because I’m a feminist, obviously.
I laughed.
Cute movie, though. Uneven, but cute.
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### Author:  [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)
#### Post date: [August 6, 2015, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/878 "2015-08-06T20:43:29Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#):
>
> No reply, LinusK? Here are the posts. I’ve made them very accessible.
Yeah I started mostly tuning this thread out after seeing exactly the posts you mentioned followed by no response whatsoever from **Linusk**
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### Author:  [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)
#### Post date: [August 6, 2015, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/879 "2015-08-06T20:59:33Z")
On another topic that LinusK keeps bringing up, notice how most of the dangerous jobs he lists pay really well? I imagine a Catch-22 for women. If they don’t pursue the jobs, it’s because they are selfishly putting men in harm’s way. If they do pursue the jobs, they only want them because they pay a lot.
An article [here](http://abcnews.go.com/Business/MadeInAmerica/breaking-ground-oil-boom-draws-women-industry/story?id=16312609#.UbddjPmTj0c) talks about women making inroads into oil field work.
Oh, and I worked in the oil field for a couple of years in the mid-nineties, if anyone cares.
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### Author:  [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)
#### Post date: [August 6, 2015, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/880 "2015-08-06T22:28:45Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#):
>
> On another topic that LinusK keeps bringing up, notice how most of the dangerous jobs he lists pay really well? I imagine a Catch-22 for women. If they don’t pursue the jobs, it’s because they are selfishly putting men in harm’s way. If they do pursue the jobs, they only want them because they pay a lot.
That’s a silly spin to it. When feminist go on about how women earn 77 cent for each dollar a man make, or whatever silly thing they drone on (and on and on) about, the risk profile (as well as other factors) of the jobs need to be taken into account. Not doing so is one of the examples of the widespread manipulative usage of statistics and surveys feminists rightfully have been criticised for.
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