# Anti-Feminism
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [July 17, 2015, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390 "2015-07-17T06:05:12Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 46
### Author:  [@Jack\_of\_Words](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_of_Words)
#### Post date: [August 7, 2015, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/901 "2015-08-07T17:44:50Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#):
>
> I haven’t reached that conclusion. My conclusion is that anti-feminists seek out the most radical, trifling, or ill-expressed feminist ideas they can find, as easy targets for their general war on feminism\*. If the “loony” feminist fringe didn’t exist, anti-feminism still would.
>
> - A common tactic, hardly unique to anti-feminism.
Sorry, which conclusion haven’t you reached? You clearly don’t support the use of examples of feminism that All Right-Thinking Persons deplore to represent feminism. But you’ve also dodged the question of demonstrating that the ‘fringe’ ‘loonie’ ‘extremists’ are _not_ in fact the mainstream. Also a common tactic, of course, and not exclusive to feminists.
If you do intend to provide any evidence for your assertions, could you also provide some for the claim that if ‘loony’ fringe feminists didn’t exist, anti-feminism still would? Would that all be anti-feminists, or just the loony fringe? Because at the moment the dismissals of anti-feminism seem more like a kneejerk protection of an ideology that is not rooted in sound thought.
> [@Human\_Action](#):
>
> Comparing the two alleged personal attacks of mine with these from you:
Alleged? Step up and show us how those two examples are not proof, rather than ‘allegations’. Meanwhile, _tu quoque_ won’t get you very far with rigorous thinkers (though it may garner applause from your fellow ideologues). The matter at hand was whether personal attacks formed an identifiable part of this thread - I didn’t have to look to far to demonstrate that they did, and then when tomndebb claimed they didn’t, he was not only mistaken but also a prime culprit. Thank you for helping to show him up, by cherry-picking some remarks of mine (which, as previously, noted stemmed from my taking my social cues from seasoned users and, of course, a moderator.).
> [@Human\_Action](#):
>
> …yours seem less defensible, and certainly more vicious.
To you. Of course they do, we disagree. The attacks of those who agree with you no doubt seem harmless and justifiable. To you. It seems a tad bizarre (to me) that anyone might think it was worth making a remark like that. But I’ll graciously accept your compliment that I’m better at it than either you or tomndebb. Keep practising, that’s my advice…oh no, hang on, don’t practise, at all, that’s my actual advice. Then we could all have a discussion free from personal invective. Imagine that!
---
### Author:  [@Jack\_of\_Words](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_of_Words)
#### Post date: [August 7, 2015, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/902 "2015-08-07T17:50:26Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#):
>
> No, why would we? So far your characterization of feminism has in general had very little to do with my feminism, or \*\*the feminism of most feminists \*\*I know and read about.
My bolding. See #891. Come along, you keep making this claim that there are some sane moderate feminists who vastly outnumber the huge rump of extremist loonies. Back this stuff up, instead of just repeating it, eh? I’m prepared to ignore the effects and impacts of those who make the most noise and do the most damage, if anyone could even show me that the quiet, stay-at-home, ineffectual sane moderate feminists [del]exist[/del] _outnumbered_ the rest.
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### Author:  [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)
#### Post date: [August 7, 2015, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/903 "2015-08-07T17:53:53Z")
I’m beginning to wonder if there even is a Scotsman.
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### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [August 7, 2015, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/904 "2015-08-07T17:58:58Z")
> [@Jack\_of\_Words](#):
>
> My bolding. See #891. Come along, you keep making this claim that there are some sane moderate feminists who vastly outnumber the huge rump of extremist loonies. Back this stuff up, instead of just repeating it, eh? I’m prepared to ignore the effects and impacts of those who make the most noise and do the most damage, if anyone could even show me that the quiet, stay-at-home, ineffectual sane moderate feminists [del]exist[/del] _outnumbered_ the rest.
My claim is entirely anecdotal, and thus my “evidence” is purely anecdotal. I’m not sure how any assertion about how many feminists believe “reasonable claim X” vs “unreasonable claim Y” could be supported with objective evidence aside from polling on the beliefs of feminists, and I’m unaware of any such polling.
My believe that my own views of feminism are in the mainstream among feminists is based on my personal experience – the majority of feminists that I’ve spoken to, read about, or otherwise interacted with do not hold to these fringe claims.
---
### Author:  [@BrightSunshine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightSunshine)
#### Post date: [August 7, 2015, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/905 "2015-08-07T18:01:29Z")
Another fun fact. Time use surveys show that women spend more time working than men in almost all countries surveyed. (Of course, women disproportionately do unpaid work which doesn’t result in economic rewards, power, or promotions.) The average difference in OECD countries is about 2 hours per week. So much for “women are ornaments, men are appliances”.
But as with most MRAs, I suspect that “women” only refer to a small subset – the young and conventionally attractive ones, who do tend to be disproportionately valued for their ornamental properties – in the mind of the OP and his credible friends.
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### Author:  [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)
#### Post date: [August 7, 2015, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/906 "2015-08-07T18:01:45Z")
> [@Jack\_of\_Words](#):
>
> Sorry, which conclusion haven’t you reached?
The one I quoted; the one you attributed to “any of [us]”:
> [@Jack of Words](#):
>
> How have any of you reached the conclusion that the stuff that drives anti-feminism is a “fringe” of “loony” “extremists”?
> [@Jack of Words](#):
>
> You clearly don’t support the use of examples of feminism that All Right-Thinking Persons deplore to represent feminism. But you’ve also dodged the question of demonstrating that the ‘fringe’ ‘loonie’ ‘extremists’ are _not_ in fact the mainstream. Also a common tactic, of course, and not exclusive to feminists.
What do you suggest, exactly? Polls? Personal experience? Academia?
> [@Jack of Words](#):
>
> If you do intend to provide any evidence for your assertions, could you also provide some for the claim that if ‘loony’ fringe feminists didn’t exist, anti-feminism still would? Would that all be anti-feminists, or just the loony fringe? Because at the moment the dismissals of anti-feminism seem more like a kneejerk protection of an ideology that is not rooted in sound thought.
The best I can do without access to an alternate dimension is to note that when the “loony” feminist ideas were things like the right the vote, or [access to birth control](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griswold_v._Connecticut), anti-feminism still existed.
What’ve you got?
> [@Jack of Words](#):
>
> Alleged? Step up and show us how those two examples are not proof, rather than ‘allegations’. Meanwhile, _tu quoque_ won’t get you very far with rigorous thinkers (though it may garner applause from your fellow ideologues). The matter at hand was whether personal attacks formed an identifiable part of this thread - I didn’t have to look to far to demonstrate that they did, and then when tomndebb claimed they didn’t, he was not only mistaken but also a prime culprit. Thank you for helping to show him up, by cherry-picking some remarks of mine (which, as previously, noted stemmed from my taking my social cues from seasoned users and, of course, a moderator.).
>
> To you. Of course they do, we disagree. The attacks of those who agree with you no doubt seem harmless and justifiable. To you. It seems a tad bizarre (to me) that anyone might think it was worth making a remark like that. But I’ll graciously accept your compliment that I’m better at it than either you or tomndebb. Keep practising, that’s my advice…oh no, hang on, don’t practise, at all, that’s my actual advice. Then we could all have a discussion free from personal invective. Imagine that!
To the extent such things are objective - mine were complaints about your posting style; yours were shots at my character.
On the subject of _tu quoque_, cherry-picked remarks were the entirely of the post I quoted, so it’s hardly right to complain when I do it.
---
### Author:  [@BrightSunshine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightSunshine)
#### Post date: [August 7, 2015, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/907 "2015-08-07T18:15:02Z")
> [@Jack\_of\_Words](#):
>
> My bolding. See #891. Come along, you keep making this claim that there are some sane moderate feminists who vastly outnumber the huge rump of extremist loonies. Back this stuff up, instead of just repeating it, eh? I’m prepared to ignore the effects and impacts of those who make the most noise and do the most damage, if anyone could even show me that the quiet, stay-at-home, ineffectual sane moderate feminists [del]exist[/del] _outnumbered_ the rest.
In anything, aren’t extremists by definition in the minority? About 20-40% ([Gallup](http://www.gallup.com/poll/6715/feminism-whats-name.aspx), [YouGov](https://today.yougov.com/news/2013/05/01/has-feminist-become-dirty-word/)) of women identify as feminists. How many women do you think are “extremist loonies” of the feminist variety? Describe positions that you consider “extremist” and we can find out if polls exist to determine whether most feminists agree? If any position is supported by less than 10% of women, we are quite certain that more feminist disagree with it than vice versa. Is there a position supported by more than 10% of women that you consider “extremist”?
Your use of “quiet, stay-at-home, ineffectual” to describe most feminists is interesting to say the least.
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### Author:  [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)
#### Post date: [August 7, 2015, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/908 "2015-08-07T18:21:03Z")
> [@BrightSunshine](#):
>
> Your use of “quiet, stay-at-home, ineffectual” to describe most feminists is interesting to say the least.
Loud ones get put on ignore. 😃
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### Author:  [@BrightSunshine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightSunshine)
#### Post date: [August 7, 2015, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/909 "2015-08-07T18:23:42Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#):
>
> Loud ones get put on ignore. 😃
Reminds me of the quote (Rebecca West, according to Google): “I myself have never been able to find out precisely what feminism is: I only know that people call me a feminist whenever I express sentiments that differentiate me from a doormat.”
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### Author:  [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)
#### Post date: [August 7, 2015, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/910 "2015-08-07T18:24:46Z")
> [@BrightSunshine](#):
>
> Your use of “quiet, stay-at-home, ineffectual” to describe most feminists is interesting to say the least.
:dubious:
So, sane feminists are ineffectual? Sane feminists are quiet? To be feminists, women have to be stay at home?
:dubious: 😕
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### Author:  [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)
#### Post date: [August 7, 2015, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/911 "2015-08-07T18:41:11Z")
> [@Jack\_of\_Words](#):
>
> My bolding. See #891. Come along, you keep making this claim that there are some sane moderate feminists who vastly outnumber the huge rump of extremist loonies. Back this stuff up, instead of just repeating it, eh? I’m prepared to ignore the effects and impacts of those who make the most noise and do the most damage, if anyone could even show me that the quiet, stay-at-home, ineffectual sane moderate feminists [del]exist[/del] _outnumbered_ the rest.
Here’s a [study](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=762527) on the subject.
---
### Author:  [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)
#### Post date: [August 7, 2015, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/912 "2015-08-07T18:47:20Z")
> [@Jack\_of\_Words](#):
>
> My bolding. See #891. Come along, you keep making this claim that there are some sane moderate feminists who vastly outnumber the huge rump of extremist loonies. Back this stuff up, instead of just repeating it, eh? I’m prepared to ignore the effects and impacts of those who make the most noise and do the most damage, if anyone could even show me that the quiet, stay-at-home, ineffectual sane moderate feminists [del]exist[/del] _outnumbered_ the rest.
Just to clarify, in order to be a sane and moderate feminist–not one of those extremist loonies–a woman has to be a quiet ineffectual homebody?
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### Author:  [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)
#### Post date: [August 7, 2015, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/913 "2015-08-07T18:50:34Z")
> [@Jack\_of\_Words](#):
>
> My bolding. See #891. Come along, you keep making this claim that there are some sane moderate feminists who vastly outnumber the huge rump of extremist loonies. Back this stuff up, instead of just repeating it, eh?
I love it when people demand a standard of evidence that they themselves are unable to meet.
---
### Author:  [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)
#### Post date: [August 7, 2015, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/914 "2015-08-07T18:53:34Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#):
>
> Here’s a [study](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=762527) on the subject.
[Magnus Pyke]Science![/Magnus Pyke]
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### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [August 7, 2015, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/915 "2015-08-07T18:54:32Z")
Is it just coincidence that all the feminists in this thread appear to be of the “sane” variety? Are we just the outliers of some insane feminist horde?
Or is it possible that most feminists have views similar to ours, and the criticism against the crazy views doesn’t apply to most feminists?
---
### Author:  [@Jack\_of\_Words](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_of_Words)
#### Post date: [August 7, 2015, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/916 "2015-08-07T20:29:57Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#):
>
> My claim is entirely anecdotal, and thus my “evidence” is purely anecdotal. I’m not sure how any assertion about how many feminists believe “reasonable claim X” vs “unreasonable claim Y” could be supported with objective evidence aside from polling on the beliefs of feminists, and I’m unaware of any such polling.
>
> My believe that my own views of feminism are in the mainstream among feminists is based on my personal experience – the majority of feminists that I’ve spoken to, read about, or otherwise interacted with do not hold to these fringe claims.
So not many then?
Now, having admitted that there is no reasonable basis for your claim (and you were the worst offender by far), tell us _why_ you made the claim? Here you are, freely confessing that there’s no way of knowing what the truth is, but making (repeatedly) a bold claim of truth nonetheless. Not a tactic unique to feminists, of course…
---
### Author:  [@Jack\_of\_Words](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_of_Words)
#### Post date: [August 7, 2015, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/917 "2015-08-07T20:43:42Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#):
>
> The one I quoted; the one you attributed to “any of [us]”:
Thanks for clarifying. You don’t believe that the stuff so many other people acknowledge is distasteful, hateful, unnecessary, misandrist, ill-founded etc, is a fringe position. It’s the mainstream, you say. OK.
> [@Human\_Action](#):
>
> What do you suggest, exactly? Polls? Personal experience? Academia?
I don’t care. I didn’t make the claims. Those who made the claims need to show how they reached that conclusion, if it was anything other than ‘I want to believe this’.
> [@Human\_Action](#):
>
> The best I can do without access to an alternate dimension is to note that when the “loony” feminist ideas were things like the right the vote, or [access to birth control](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griswold_v._Connecticut), anti-feminism still existed.
Feminism was retroactively granted to those who fought for the right of some women to vote, that’s been covered. All that’s happening here is people grasping at nits, to support an ideology that bit them somewhere beyond their intellect.
There are misogynists. I’ve never met one, but historical records show (for a small portion of the population, in certain places, in a short time frame) genuine misogyny. Just as we can see genuine misandrists (some of whom are feminists - but only a loony fringe minority, apparently…)
> [@Human\_Action](#):
>
> What’ve you got?
Aspergers. What’ve you got? (Sorry, I just hit ‘quote’ and I really can’t be bothered to find out what you think you’re referring to here. We have trenches, now, and nobody wants to find peace. Not even the ‘It just means equality’ crowd, who expect their claims of egalitarianism to be accepted, but ignore mine in favour of assuming an egalitarian who rejects their factually _non_-egalitarian ideology _must_ hate women or something. It doesn’t even matter what the something is, it’s just a deep, ideological ‘other’. Your hatred good, anybody else’s rational disputation bad.
> [@Human\_Action](#):
>
> To the extent such things are objective - mine were complaints about your posting style; yours were shots at my character.
There’s a difference?
> [@Human\_Action](#):
>
> On the subject of _tu quoque_, cherry-picked remarks were the entirely of the post I quoted, so it’s hardly right to complain when I do it.
On the subject of _tu quoque_, you did it too? I find your posts so inane that I won’t read any more of them. Count that as a win, if you wish. You can giggle with your fellow ideologues.
---
### Author:  [@Jack\_of\_Words](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_of_Words)
#### Post date: [August 7, 2015, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/918 "2015-08-07T20:47:15Z")
> [@BrightSunshine](#):
>
> Another fun fact. Time use surveys show that women spend more time working than men in almost all countries surveyed. (Of course, women disproportionately do unpaid work which doesn’t result in economic rewards, power, or promotions.) The average difference in OECD countries is about 2 hours per week. So much for “women are ornaments, men are appliances”.
>
> But as with most MRAs, I suspect that “women” only refer to a small subset – the young and conventionally attractive ones, who do tend to be disproportionately valued for their ornamental properties – in the mind of the OP and his credible friends.
Hi. I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but we’re talking about feminism, and feminists. Not women.
What do you mean when you say ‘MRA’? I get what it stands for, and of course any feminist would be equally keen on rights for men (though they might reasonably expect any man to take care of that side of equality?) So how did you make it a sneering term of offence, in a movement that keeps saying it’s about gender equality? Rights for men?? LOLROFL
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### Author:  [@Jack\_of\_Words](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_of_Words)
#### Post date: [August 7, 2015, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/919 "2015-08-07T20:48:37Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#):
>
> Is it just coincidence that all the feminists in this thread appear to be of the “sane” variety? Are we just the outliers of some insane feminist horde?
>
> Or is it possible that most feminists have views similar to ours, and the criticism against the crazy views doesn’t apply to most feminists?
Personal remarks again. You just…whoops. Your post, I mean. Come up with numbers, because people making claims on the internet…well, you believe them if you want to.
---
### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [August 7, 2015, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/920 "2015-08-07T20:49:26Z")
> [@Jack\_of\_Words](#):
>
> So not many then?
Where did I say it was “not many”?
> [@](#):
>
> Now, having admitted that there is no reasonable basis for your claim
Sure there is – my own experience. It’s entirely reasonable for me to make claims about my beliefs that stem from my experience.
Especially when the claims I’m countering (in terms of what proportions of feminists have what beliefs) similarly have no other sorts of evidence.
> [@](#):
>
> (and you were the worst offender by far), tell us _why_ you made the claim?
Because the unsupported claims about how many feminists have these fringe beliefs are contrary to my own experience.
> [@](#):
>
> Here you are, freely confessing that there’s no way of knowing what the truth is, but making (repeatedly) a bold claim of truth nonetheless. Not a tactic unique to feminists, of course…
I’m not saying there’s no way to know – polling might cast some light on this. In fact, **BrightSunshine** ’s post provides some polling that we do know that might shed light on this.
As to some “bold claim of truth”, I was indeed telling the truth about my own experiences – in my experience in interacting with many feminists, the vast majority of them do not hold these fringe beliefs that **LinusK** attributes to feminists. I don’t see how telling the truth about my own experiences is some sort of “bold claim”, but YMMV.
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