# Anti-Feminism **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 17, 2015, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390 "2015-07-17T06:05:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 50
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2015, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/981 "2015-08-07T23:32:40Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > I’d be interested in seeing clips of such newscasts, tbh. You’ve never seen that? I definitely have. In some cases, it might barely make sense, if the assumption is that everyone else fighting is a soldier and if in whatever culture, women and children aren’t. But I reject that assumption because all men are never soldiers either. The thinking that puts men into the “soldier” category while women and children are “noncombatants” leads to horrors like Srebrenica. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_of\_Words](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f6c823/32.png) [@Jack\_of\_Words](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_of_Words)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2015, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/982 "2015-08-07T23:37:04Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Equality for women is equality, as is equality for black people and equality for gay people (among other things). > > I brought up racism and bigotry because opposing racism and bigotry are enormous parts of my ideology, which you say you oppose all of. Are you saying you don’t oppose all of my ideology, or perhaps you were unaware that opposition to racism and bigotry were enormous and fundamental to my ideology? > > That’s a common practice on this message board. Please forgive me if I hurt your feelings. I really wouldn’t want to and I’m very sorry if I did. I’ll try not to do that again. No, equality regardless of gender is equality. Equality regardless of race is equality. Equality regardless of sexual orientation is equality. ‘Equality’ that attacks ‘MRAs’ is not equality. An ideology that works actively against equality (as NOW did, against equal parenting, for example), is not an egalitarian ideology. It has no interest in equality. My feelings were not hurt. I don’t attach that much value to grammar that your ludicrous assertion that ‘he’ could be addressed to me would hurt my feelings. I think I’d feel wounded in my sense of self-respect if I tried to pitch that argument, but perhaps your self-respect is more resilient. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2015, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/983 "2015-08-07T23:39:58Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > You’ve never seen that? I definitely have. I probably have but for whatever reason it hasn’t stuck in my memory. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2015, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/984 "2015-08-07T23:42:28Z")
> [@Jack\_of\_Words](#): > > The evidence suggest otherwise. By which I mean actual evidence other people can look at, like your posts in this thread, rather than your witnessing (which is not really evidence at all). What evidence? Which posts? > [@](#): > > Well then ‘feminist’ really has become a meaningless label. You’re egalitarians, if we’re to take you at your word. Do you stand opposed to those who want equality ‘for women’? To me that’s the same thing, so no, I don’t oppose that. > [@](#): > > I didn’t notice that yet. Where do you do it, if not here? When I see attempts at suppression of evidence, I’ll oppose it. > [@](#): > > Not so far we don’t. You don’t agree that men shouldn’t be virgin-shamed, or mocked for lack of sex? You don’t agree that rape in prison is a real problem? You don’t agree that people shouldn’t be treated equally and fairly regardless of race, religion, gender, or sexual orientation? You don’t agree that gay marriage should be legal? You don’t agree that science is the best tool for understanding the world around us? You don’t agree that evolution and not ‘creation science’ should be taught in schools? From what I can tell, we agree on plenty of things. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2015, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/985 "2015-08-07T23:44:35Z")
> [@Jack\_of\_Words](#): > > No, equality regardless of gender is equality. Equality regardless of race is equality. Equality regardless of sexual orientation is equality. ‘Equality’ that attacks ‘MRAs’ is not equality. An ideology that works actively against equality (as NOW did, against equal parenting, for example), is not an egalitarian ideology. It has no interest in equality. I’m unaware of NOW working actively against equality. From my understanding they have done much work in favor of equality. Care to cite how they have opposed equal parenting? > [@](#): > > My feelings were not hurt. I don’t attach that much value to grammar that your ludicrous assertion that ‘he’ could be addressed to me would hurt my feelings. I think I’d feel wounded in my sense of self-respect if I tried to pitch that argument, but perhaps your self-respect is more resilient. I’m very pleased I didn’t hurt your feelings. From your complaint I was worried that I did, but this makes me happy. Thank you! ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2015, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/986 "2015-08-07T23:56:29Z")
> [@Jack\_of\_Words](#): > > All of it. I expect most of the things you think are reasonable, and that was just the loony extremist fringe of your thinking? Also, if you think you know, tell me why you just used that third person ‘he’s not in our gang’ style? It’s a very insecure ideology indeed that needs it. Because, Jack, whatever “gang” you’re in, I want no part of it. You’re leaping around this thread, making nonsensical claims of personal remarks or attacks in response to some fairly neutral statements (like [is it possible that more feminists are like the ones in this thread?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18582627&postcount=915) - [AHA Personal remark!](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18582965&postcount=919) or even [Slow down and re-read that](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18583007&postcount=924) - [AHA Personal attack!](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18583046&postcount=927)! You claim to not “[notice](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18583013&postcount=925)” any feminists who say the things feminists have been saying in this very thread, who aren’t yelling about toxic masculinity. Yet you have been presumably reading and certainly responding to a large number of feminists in this thread. How many self-professed feminists do you know, that you are able to so confidently state what their ideology is? I know a lot, and I am one, so I feel pretty confident in saying that the ridiculous ideas put forth as “evidence” of the toxic nature of feminism are loony, fringe beliefs. You are standing outside the group, and saying that the edges you see are the bulk of it. All of the feminists I know believe in equality. Not misandry, though I am sure they are out there. But the toxic ones do not make up the bulk \*in my experience. \* At best, I feel you’re not arguing in good faith. You are not “honestly and earnestly trying to engage” anyone. You misinterpret statements that have been made. You bounced all around about how ridiculous that anyone could not know about the [UK] suffragists – all the while, you were completely ignorant of any suffrage movement outside your own country. Perhaps feminism is radically different in the U.K. So, no, I don’t want you in my “gang,” whatever you think it is. And I don’t want to be in yours. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/987 "2015-08-08T00:01:04Z")
To me this is like a non-Muslim telling a crowd of Muslims what Islam is about. I don’t think the Muslims need cites to tell the non-Muslim that he’s wrong about Islam. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/988 "2015-08-08T00:03:25Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > To me this is like a non-Muslim telling a crowd of Muslims what Islam is about. I don’t think the Muslims need cites to tell the non-Muslim that he’s wrong about Islam. Islamic people go like **this** and non-Islamic people go like _this_. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/989 "2015-08-08T00:03:59Z")
It’s funny 'cause it’s true! ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/990 "2015-08-08T00:05:54Z")
> [@Jack\_of\_Words](#): > > Oh, and it’s worth noting again, **Karl** and **Larry**. We’re talking about _feminists_, not women. Granted, some feminists (women feminists, necessarily) claim their movement of gender equality can’t allow men to be feminists. I don’t know where you stand on the matter, but I don’t give any amount of \*\*\*\*\* what genitalia anyone has, I am concerned with their ideas. I don’t like yours. Feel free to hate me for that, but do try to spare some time to question what _that_ might indicate. 😕 A quick search, less than the amount of time you’ve spent debating and quoting others, would’ve let you know, quite easily, that I’m very much a woman. In fact, in either this or another one of **LinusK** ’s repetitive threads, I’ve mentioned my encounters with sexism and harassment. Again, what you say do not represent the feminists I know. My dad is one, many of my male friends and exes consider themselves feminists (the ones who have mentioned it, the rest I don’t know), many coworkers as well. You seem to be someone who writes a string of words together that don’t make much sense, then when people ask and question what exactly those words are meaning together, you either dismiss them as not smart enough, or condemn them for “twisting your words”, when they’re just repeating what you’ve typed for confirmation that it is, indeed, your writing. I don’t hate anyone, that’s too much emotion and negativity. I’m all for emotion, but that is costly and wasting it on negativity is fruitless. ---
**Author:** ![BrightSunshine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b3f665/32.png) [@BrightSunshine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightSunshine)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/991 "2015-08-08T00:14:20Z")
> [@Jack\_of\_Words](#): > > Hi. I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but we’re talking about feminism, and feminists. Not women. OP’s central premise is that men make sacrifices and work while women enjoy men’s protection. He has brought up the “women are ornaments, men are appliances” line at least twice in this thread. (Edited to add) And there is also the “if all men disappear women would be living in stone age” claim early on in the thread, that is in line with this claim. ---
**Author:** ![BrightSunshine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b3f665/32.png) [@BrightSunshine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightSunshine)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/992 "2015-08-08T00:25:11Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’m still not even sure what part of my ideology **Jack of Words** rejects. I also asked him to state what he considers “loony” feminist positions. He has not. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/993 "2015-08-08T00:31:08Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > To me this is like a non-Muslim telling a crowd of Muslims what Islam is about. I don’t think the Muslims need cites to tell the non-Muslim that he’s wrong about Islam. Like there are a trillion post on SDMB on what Christianity is and hardly a Christian in sight. ---
**Author:** ![BrightSunshine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b3f665/32.png) [@BrightSunshine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightSunshine)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/994 "2015-08-08T00:32:06Z")
> [@Jack\_of\_Words](#): > > Yes…I am. What do you think that has to do with being against the whole of your ideology? Equality ‘for women’ is not equality. How did racism and bigotry get into this? It’s perfectly possible to be a racist, bigoted feminist, given the trite dictionary definition which has been all anyone has been able to commit to here. Logic dictates that “gender equality” is a necessary though not sufficient condition for “overall equality.” In other word, your claim of support for equality is not correct if it does not include gender equality; if it does, it includes one of the core principles of feminism. And surely you’ve heard of third world feminism and Marxist feminism? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/995 "2015-08-08T00:32:59Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Like there are a trillion post on SDMB on what Christianity is and hardly a Christian in sight. I would oppose any efforts by non-Christians in telling Christians what Christianity is supposedly “really about”. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/996 "2015-08-08T00:38:40Z")
> [@Jack\_of\_Words](#): > > Pay attention. I’ve made no such claim. On the other hand, I did just collect several claims that they represented the fringe of loony extremists. But nobody who has made that claim has offered any evidence. > > D-. Must try harder. How many of them had any power at all? I’d like to see some anecdotes describing feminists who meet any of these criteria: -Control an organization (profit or nonprofit or governmental) with an annual budget of at least $10 million. -Have ever had a book on a bestseller list. -Have ever held elected political office at the national level. -Have ever had a primary role on a politics show on television or radio. Because I can tell you about many feminists who meet one or more of these criteria who don’t hold loony views. I maintain that you can’t name more than one who does. Here’s my off-the-cuff list to begin with: -Hillary Clinton -Sheryl Sandberg -Barack Obama -Gloria Steinem -Elizabeth Warren -Bernie Sanders These are folks that are feminists and mainstream, using a very wide net to catch “mainstream.” Now you: cite some feminists who are famous for something other than a blog or a university-published book or a stunt, some feminists who are genuinely mainstream and not fringe, who have objectionable views. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/997 "2015-08-08T01:21:03Z")
> [@KarlGrenze](#): > > Wait what? I think most feminists I know (including my own father), would argue for more equal distribution to parenting responsibilities and household work, and more appreciation for the role fathers play in child raising. I see that feminists who claim for paid maternal leave in the US area also asking for father’s leave, and asking for a general parental leave, so that both of them can get time to bond with the baby. I see feminists advocating men are equally responsible for household matters such as cleaning and cooking, as that would decrease the stress for working women, who have to work outside the house yet many people in society still expect them to keep the house tidy and meals served. > > I just don’t get where do you get your conclusions, or if you’re confusing some messages (that may actually be coming from social conservative groups), and applying them to feminism as a whole. I’m glad that most feminists you know would argue for more equal distribution of parenting responsibilities. However, I was talking about what happens after a marriage breaks down. In those cases feminists are notably absent when in comes to advocating for equal distribution to parenting responsibilities. In fact, they actively oppose it. From [The Atlantic](http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/06/the-now-president-who-became-a-mens-rights-activist/372742/): > [@](#): > > Plenty of feminists have endorsed this idea when it comes to things like equal parental leave or shared responsibility for housework and child care; Gloria Steinem has said that “women are not going to be equal outside the home until men are equal in it.” But few were willing to take the extra step of framing custody in terms of men’s rights, or siding with men against women who wanted sole custody… By the mid-1990s, NOW was openly hostile to the fathers’-rights movement, arguing that women were the real victims of bias in family courts. An “action alert” issued at the group’s 1996 annual conference compared fathers’-rights activists to batterers seeking control over women; a resolution three years later made it NOW’s official policy to champion women’s interests in divorce and custody cases and counter the “undue influence” of fathers’ groups. From [Thought Catalog](http://thoughtcatalog.com/janet-bloomfield/2015/03/if-feminism-is-about-equality-why-do-feminists-oppose-equality/): > [@](#): > > As early as 1986, the president of one chapter of the National Organization for Women, the largest feminist organization in the US, complained about the unfairness of equality when it meant giving up a traditional female privilege. Women, feminists argued, are equal, except when they are special and then equal doesn’t count and is unfair and won’t everyone please remember that men suck? In 2001, feminists refused to even sit at the table with men to discuss men and women sharing, equally, the responsibilities and decisions involved in parenting… > > According to NOW’s 2005 statement opposing shared parenting, kids seeing their fathers isn’t necessarily a good thing. Surely, in the case of abusive or negligent fathers, that is likely true. It is also true of abusive or negligent mothers. Feminists insist all fathers should be denied the right to equality because some fathers might be abusive or negligent, while completely ignoring the fact that most violence against children is carried out by women. And don’t even try to get feminists to address the piss poor job most single mothers are doing. Children without fathers in their lives suffer in measurable, meaningful ways, but feminists fight tooth and nail to keep Daddy on the margins. > > In 2009, NOW upped the ante, and declared that fathers who want a relationship with their children after divorce are really only interested in controlling the woman. Fathers don’t really want to go to dance recitals or school picnics or rake the leaves in the backyard or cuddle with their kids, watching the game on TV because they love their children and want to maintain lives and memories with their babies. No. It’s because men want to access and control the woman. From [Salon](http://www.salon.com/2000/07/06/crusade/): > [@](#): > > The loosely organized fathers’ rights movement, thought to involve up to 100,000 people nationwide, is often viewed as part of a backlash against women and feminism. That’s certainly how the National Organization for Women sees it. In 1996, NOW issued an “Action Alert on ‘Fathers’ Rights,'” which accused the movement of “using the abuse of power in order to control in the same fashion as do batterers” and established a national clearinghouse to combat pro-father activism. In 1999, the first of the resolutions passed at NOW’s national conference explicitly targeted fathers’ rights groups as the enemy in family law issues… > > Most family law experts agree that any negativity certain judges may have toward careerist moms is generally outweighed by the sentiment that favors mothers over fathers. The claim that men who seek custody usually succeed is based primarily on cases in which fathers get custody by mutual agreement; in custody disputes, studies show, mothers win at least 80 percent of the time. From the [National Organization of Women](http://www.nownys.org/archives/leg_memos/oppose_a00330.html): > [@](#): > > The National Organization for Women, New York State, Inc. strongly urges the Assembly and Senate of New York to oppose this legislation. This bill seeks to “create the statutory of presumption of joint custody for all minor children whose parents are no longer married, so that both parents can continue to share in the responsibilities and duties of the children’s upbringing.” ---
**Author:** ![Emiliana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f0a364/32.png) [@Emiliana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Emiliana)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/998 "2015-08-08T01:36:03Z")
> [@Jack\_of\_Words](#): > > Another personal comment. Have you tried rational argument? I’m wide open to it, personally. Your ideology would be so much more persuasive if it didn’t seem to rely solely on slandering those who disagreed with it. I don’t engage in rational argument with people who are unwilling or unable to respond in kind. It only encourages more nonsense on part of the empirically-challenged. ---
**Author:** ![erez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@erez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erez)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/999 "2015-08-08T01:39:01Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > I’d be interested in seeing clips of such newscasts, tbh. [https://www.youtube.com/results?search\_query="including+women+and+children"](https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=%22including+women+and+children%22) ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/1000 "2015-08-08T02:03:33Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > From the [National Organization of Women](http://www.nownys.org/archives/leg_memos/oppose_a00330.html): According to this link, NOW opposes shared parenting in divorces without regard for gender… if the dad was the primary childcare provider, then NOW supports giving the dad primary custody, barring abuse. I don’t know if that’s better for kids than equally shared custody- I would imagine it depends on the specifics of each circumstance. But it’s not necessarily anti-father, especially because NOW supports fathers being more involved in the domestic work of childcare. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390.md?page=49) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390.md?page=51)