# Anti-Feminism **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 17, 2015, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390 "2015-07-17T06:05:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 52
**Author:** ![Emiliana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f0a364/32.png) [@Emiliana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Emiliana)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/1021 "2015-08-08T16:40:41Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > You weren’t talking to the OP in the post I was responding to or in any of the most closely relevant posts in that conversation. Yes, clearly sex-selective abortion and female infanticide are cultural phenomena, not biological ones. The study on favoring girl children in times of scarcity is interesting. I’ve never seen that claim before, and I’ve read many studies dealing with children and the allocation of family resources. At least in cultures in which girls leave to join their husbands’ households after marriage, boys are favored in terms of food, health care, and education, since girls aren’t viewed as a permanent part of the family, and won’t be responsible for the care of their parents in old age. This goes some way in explaining child brides as well. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/1022 "2015-08-08T16:40:57Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > She has absolutely no proof, her subsequent acts were extremely dubious, he was cleared by the school and she couldn’t be bothered to show up for police investigation. But why don’t we subject him to a multitude of harms, make his school year a hell, destroy any chance of a professional life in the USA, public shame and drag his name through the mud anyway. > > Here’s her take on: “When people demand proof of an act of sexual violence, ask yourself why they want to frame this as a science. … When a person claims that their theory is a science, they disqualify other types of knowledge.” – Mattress Girl. That’s a person who actually went to university. Coming up with such complete rubbish. Not even just unscientific (like most of third-wave feminists nonsense), but apparently anti-scientific. > > And that’s exactly the problem with feminism, because on the face of it, it is quite reasonable. Of course we all support feminists advocating the “radical notion” that women are people, get to vote and whatever. But then they turn around and spew such unfathomable nonsense that one is forced to either consider them deliberately manipulative or downright retarded. > > A) I’m a thingamabobist: we have the radical belief that puppies are cute, the earth is round and the mind can bend metal spoons. B) That’s stupid, the mind can’t bend metal. I guess that makes me an anti-thingamabobist. A) You horrible person! You hate puppies and are one of those throw back conservatives that think the earth is flat! No, it’s worse than that. From [The Daily Beast](http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/02/03/columbia-student-i-didn-t-rape-her.html): > [@](#): > > Nungesser provided The Daily Beast with Facebook messages with Sulkowicz from August, September, and October 2012. (In an email to The Daily Beast, Sulkowicz confirmed that these records were authentic and not redacted in any way; while she initially offered to provide “annotations” explaining the context on the messages, she then emailed again to say that she would not be sending them.) On Aug. 29, two days after the alleged rape, Nungesser messaged Sulkowicz on Facebook to say, “Small shindig in our room tonight—bring cool freshmen.” Her response: > > > [@](#): > > > > lol yusss > > > > Also I feel like we need to have some real time where we can talk about life and thingz > > > > because we still haven’t really had a paul-emma chill sesh since summmmerrrr > > On Sept. 9, on a morning before an ADP meeting, it was Sulkowicz who initiated the Facebook contact, asking Nungesser if he wanted to “hang out a little bit” before or after the meeting and concluding with: > > > [@](#): > > > > whatever I want to see yoyououoyou > > > > respond—I’ll get the message on ma phone > > On Oct. 3, Sulkowicz’s birthday, Nungesser sent her an effusive greeting; she responded the next morning with, “I love you Paul. Where are you?!?!?!?!” > > * * * > > Karin Nungesser fully understands the desire to support someone who comes forward with an accusation of rape: “This is a good cause—but even in a good cause, you have to try to check the facts.” What she views as the failure to check the facts in this case appalls her not only as a feminist but as a journalist. “We can’t understand to this day why the major media never asked Paul about his side,” she says. “Going back to our own history, the media in western Germany were built upon the model of The New York Times. It was the idea of good journalism, of good fact-checking, of not doing propaganda.” It’s worth noting that Emma completed her senior thesis by carrying the mattress around - the stated purpose of which was to get Paul kicked out of school. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/1023 "2015-08-08T16:44:28Z")
Hey, **Linus** , any response to post 1004? Can you at least give an explanation why, after the way you edited that quote, anyone should trust anything you have to say on this subject? ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/1024 "2015-08-08T16:53:39Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Hey, **Linus** , any response to post 1004? Can you at least give an explanation why, after the way you edited that quote, anyone should trust anything you have to say on this subject? I believe it is an unfounded presumption to blame Linus for the editing. I find it far more likely that he had never read more of that article than the excerpt before now, nor has he ever opened a copy of The Atlantic. ---
**Author:** ![Emiliana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f0a364/32.png) [@Emiliana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Emiliana)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/1025 "2015-08-08T16:58:17Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > I believe it is an unfounded presumption to blame Linus for the editing. I find it far more likely that he had never read more of that article than the excerpt before now, nor has he ever opened a copy of The Atlantic. That would be my guess as well. I suspect his non-responsiveness and inability to understand the key points of studies he claims to have read is due to his reading of quite partial and selective quotes on whatever men’s rights board he’s cutting and pasting from. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/1026 "2015-08-08T17:05:22Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > I believe it is an unfounded presumption to blame Linus for the editing. I find it far more likely that he had never read more of that article than the excerpt before now, nor has he ever opened a copy of The Atlantic. You’re more generous than I am, but even if he’s just mindlessly parroting things he found on other websites without investigating them at all, he’s still an untrustworthy source of information. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/1027 "2015-08-08T17:12:50Z")
I actually kind of suspect he’s some sort of bot. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/1028 "2015-08-08T17:13:40Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > You’re more generous than I am, but even if he’s just mindlessly parroting things he found on other websites without investigating them at all, he’s still an untrustworthy source of information. Oh, I agree. At the very least he should start questioning his sources when the distortions are pointed out, but he does not, ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/1029 "2015-08-08T17:14:01Z")
I’d also still love to hear about whether feminists talk about prison rape, LinusK. Maybe you’ve missed the questions? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/1030 "2015-08-08T17:15:38Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > I believe it is an unfounded presumption to blame Linus for the editing. I find it far more likely that he had never read more of that article than the excerpt before now, nor has he ever opened a copy of The Atlantic. Since he linked to the Atlantic, I hold him responsible for knowing what’s in the Atlantic article. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/1031 "2015-08-08T17:15:56Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Her subsequent acts weren’t “dubious”, they were just weird. And many accusations of rape, true or false, have no proof because there were no witnesses and very often the victim is so traumatized that they immediately clean off any physical evidence. > > So it’s entirely possible that she was raped, and I am in no position to say that she wasn’t. If she wasn’t then her accusations were very wrong. If she was then they were very appropriate. > > I’m against unfathomable nonsense. Fortunately most feminists I know and have read about don’t spew it. [Presumption of Innocence](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presumption_of_innocence): _The presumption of innocence, sometimes referred to by the Latin expression Ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat (the burden of proof is on he who declares, not on he who denies), is the principle that one is considered innocent unless proven guilty. In many nations, presumption of innocence is a legal right of the accused in a criminal trial. The burden of proof is thus on the prosecution, which has to collect and present enough compelling evidence to convince the trier of fact, who is restrained and ordered by law to consider only actual evidence and testimony that is legally admissible, and in most cases lawfully obtained, that the accused is guilty beyond reasonable doubt. If reasonable doubt remains, the accused is to be acquitted._ ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/1032 "2015-08-08T17:33:38Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > It’s certainly interesting that the quote you provided was edited to remove any reference to the actual subject of the article. It’s a memorial piece about feminist and former NOW president Karen DeCrow, who was also an advocate for men’s rights and specifically argued in favor of shared child custody. The article does make it clear that many feminists disagreed with DeCrow’s views, but it also says “She certainly never stopped being a feminist.” > > Here’s some of the text that was cut from **LinusK** ’s quote, in bold: > The article continues on for several paragraphs about DeCrow’s work – which included talking about the kind of things you’ve claimed feminists don’t talk about – before the point where your edited quote picks up again. > > A quick look at the [Salon article](http://www.salon.com/2000/07/06/crusade/) reveals that it’s about women who support the father’s rights movement and, according to a passage you edited out of your quote, “many of whom consider themselves feminists.” > > So according to your own cites, feminists are notably _present_ on both sides of this issue. It’s fascinating that you failed to notice this while reading these articles, choosing passages to quote, and carefully editing out the evidence that disproves your claim to the contrary. I agree the articles were more nuanced than Linus’s summary perhaps implied, but I read the Salon and Atlantic articles as representing these positions as exceptions–using phrases like “heresy” and noting the wider opposition to “men’s rights” in many feminist philosophies, citing the belief that these female supporters are the dupes of oppressive males. So, if Linus’s point was that the largest “consensus” in feminist circles opposes such men’s rights, his cites are to at least some extent–perhaps largely–supportive of such a notion. If his point was that there is not a single feminist anywhere, anytime, who supports these men’s rights, then I guess you got him. BTW, I’m not taking a position either way, just explaining my read of the articles, for what they’re worth (and for what my reading comprehension is worth)… ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/1033 "2015-08-08T17:43:42Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > [Presumption of Innocence](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presumption_of_innocence): _The presumption of innocence, sometimes referred to by the Latin expression Ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat (the burden of proof is on he who declares, not on he who denies), is the principle that one is considered innocent unless proven guilty. In many nations, presumption of innocence is a legal right of the accused in a criminal trial. The burden of proof is thus on the prosecution, which has to collect and present enough compelling evidence to convince the trier of fact, who is restrained and ordered by law to consider only actual evidence and testimony that is legally admissible, and in most cases lawfully obtained, that the accused is guilty beyond reasonable doubt. If reasonable doubt remains, the accused is to be acquitted._ What does this have to do with my post? Yes, he has the right to presumption of innocence if he faces trial. I wasn’t talking about a trial, I was talking about whether it’s right or wrong for her to have made an accusation. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/1034 "2015-08-08T17:48:14Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > I agree the articles were more nuanced than Linus’s summary perhaps implied, but I read the Salon and Atlantic articles as representing these positions as exceptions–using phrases like “heresy” and noting the wider opposition to “men’s rights” in many feminist philosophies, citing the belief that these female supporters are the dupes of oppressive males. But the line “many of whom consider themselves feminists” right away shows that at a minimum, well, many of them consider themselves feminists. When someone’s argument is “feminists don’t do X” and you can show feminists doing X, how much of the original argument stands? ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/1035 "2015-08-08T18:22:54Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > But the line “many of whom consider themselves feminists” right away shows that at a minimum, well, many of them consider themselves feminists. When someone’s argument is “feminists don’t do X” and you can show feminists doing X, how much of the original argument stands? I agree, for the most part. As I said, the articles were more nuanced than he implied. My point was just that the articles did represent these feminists as exceptions. The “many of whom consider themselves feminists” is a large subset of the smaller subset, IOW. So, if Linus’s point was an unequivocal “feminists never do this,” then his cites are a fail and his edits misleading. But I think it’s likelier that he meant that “most feminists don’t do X” and he framed it in a manner that perhaps overstated his point. It’s generally a foolish position (and a simplistic inference) that no exception, anywhere, anytime, exists, one typically very easy to rebut. I’ll also add, I have not followed the entire thread, so maybe my “out of the entire thread’s context” read of Linus’s possible intention is too simple. But the articles did paint these women as exceptions, ISTM. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/1036 "2015-08-08T18:24:08Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > So, if Linus’s point was that the largest “consensus” in feminist circles opposes such men’s rights, his cites are to at least some extent–perhaps largely–supportive of such a notion. If his point was that there is not a single feminist anywhere, anytime, who supports these men’s rights, then I guess you got him. There’s not any “if” about it: > [@LinusK](#): > > In those cases feminists are notably absent when in comes to advocating for equal distribution to parenting responsibilities. In fact, they actively oppose it. He doesn’t say that feminist who advocate for “equal distribution to parenting responsibilities” are rare, he says they’re absent. He doesn’t qualify his claim that feminists oppose this either – it’s not “many” or “most” feminists, it’s just feminists. If his point had been that DeCrow’s views were controversial among feminists then there would have been no need to use deceptive editing. The Atlantic article made it clear that this was the case. But instead of acknowledging DeCrow as at least some sort of exception, he posted a quote selectively edited to remove all reference to her even though the article was _about_ her. \*\*LinusK \*\*has also claimed again and again that feminists don’t even talk about men’s problems, and specifically said [way back on page 5](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18531568&postcount=213) that he’d admit he was wrong if we could show him “feminist outrage over the difference in outcomes in custody cases”. DeCrow was a prominent feminist leader who didn’t just complain about this issue on the Internet, she spent decades actually working to do something about it. Of course, he also said he’d admit he was wrong if we could show him “feminists who’re trying to stop prison rape”, and \*\*jsgoddess \*\*has been trying in vain for some time now to get him to acknowledge that he has been shown this. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/1037 "2015-08-08T18:30:29Z")
Lamia, fair enough. As I said, I haven’t read the whole thread. But I do think the “notably absent” sentence could be read as awkwardly worded and not intended to mean, “no feminist anywhere.” But Linus can clarify if he’d like. Just offering my read of it… ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/1038 "2015-08-08T18:48:00Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Lamia, fair enough. As I said, I haven’t read the whole thread. But I do think the “notably absent” sentence could be read as awkwardly worded and not intended to mean, “no feminist anywhere.” But Linus can clarify if he’d like. Just offering my read of it… If you had read the entire thread\*, you’d know that he’s basically just been saying “FEMINISTS BAD!!!” for hundreds and hundreds of posts. The closest he’s come to acknowledging that there could be such a thing as a feminist who isn’t bad is suggesting that **iiandyiiii** and **jsgoddess** , both of whom identify as feminists, [aren’t true feminists](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18581916&postcount=893). And again, if he didn’t mean “no feminist anywhere” there would have been no need to use deceptive editing. \*ETA: I’m not suggesting you should have – I kind of regret not spending my time doing something more productive, like poking myself in the eye with a stick. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/1039 "2015-08-08T18:50:11Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > If you had read the entire thread (and believe me, I’m not suggesting you should have), you’d know that he’s basically just been saying “FEMINISTS BAD!!!” for hundreds and hundreds of posts. The closest he’s come to acknowledging that there could be such a thing as a feminist who isn’t bad is suggesting that **iiandyiiii** and **jsgoddess** , both of whom identify as feminists, [aren’t true feminists](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18581916&postcount=893). Yeah, that’s pretty bad debating right there. I see your point. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390/1040 "2015-08-08T19:10:36Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > \*\*LinusK \*\*has also claimed again and again that feminists don’t even talk about men’s problems, and specifically said [way back on page 5](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18531568&postcount=213) that he’d admit he was wrong if we could show him “feminist outrage over the difference in outcomes in custody cases”. DeCrow was a prominent feminist leader who didn’t just complain about this issue on the Internet, she spent decades actually working to do something about it. Of course, he also said he’d admit he was wrong if we could show him “feminists who’re trying to stop prison rape”, and \*\*jsgoddess \*\*has been trying in vain for some time now to get him to acknowledge that he has been shown this. I would request that no one participate further in this thread unless it is either to repeat this point or to respond to it while being **LinusK**. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390.md?page=51) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-feminism/725390.md?page=53)