# Anti-Fossil Fuel, Anti-Nuke People: What's the Solution to Our Energy Problem **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 1, 2011, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-fossil-fuel-anti-nuke-people-whats-the-solution-to-our-energy-problem/576882 "2011-04-01T23:31:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![NetTrekker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nettrekker/32/2909_2.png) [@NetTrekker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NetTrekker)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-fossil-fuel-anti-nuke-people-whats-the-solution-to-our-energy-problem/576882/201 "2011-04-11T15:59:51Z")
Quit wasting so much. You don’t need a big-ass Cadillac Escalade or monster truck to run your errands around town or commute to work by yourself. Selfish, pretentious, greedy Americans are the biggest part of the energy problem. And then they want to trash the coastal shores and interior, drilling for more oil. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-fossil-fuel-anti-nuke-people-whats-the-solution-to-our-energy-problem/576882/202 "2011-04-21T04:08:16Z")
[Here’s](http://www.greencarcongress.com/2011/04/epicc-20110420.html#tp) another possible contributer - oil shale used to produce electricity in situ rather than oil. > [@](#): > > A team at Stanford University is proposing using solid oxide fuel cells as the basis for a method for electricity production from oil shale with in situ carbon capture (EPICC) as a means to provide transportation services from oil shale with greatly reduced CO2 emissions. > > In a paper published in the ACS journal Energy & Fuels, Hiren Mulchandani and Adam Brandt note that oil shale contains large amounts of stored chemical energy—more than 1 trillion barrels of oil equivalent is present in the Green River formation of the United States alone. However, liquid hydrocarbon (HC) fuels derived from oil shale have ~1.2-1.75 times the GHG emissions of HC fuels produced from conventional oil on a full-fuel-cycle (well-to-wheels) basis. … > > … waste heat from a solid oxide fuel cell (SOFC) placed in the subsurface is transferred via conduction to a geologic formation containing oil shale. The heat causes kerogen and bitumen to decompose into liquid and gaseous HCs (retorting). As vaporized liquid HCs move toward producer wells and contact cool shale, some condensation occurs. Upon further heating, liquid HCs crack into low-molecular weight gases (CH4, H2, CO, CO2) and char. … Produced HC gases are then fed back into the fuel cell to generate electricity and to provide more waste heat for retorting. Excess gas can be sent to a combined cycle gas turbine to produce additional electricity. … The chemical energy contained in the shale is converted to work (e.g., electricity) in the subsurface, rather than in distributed internal combustion engines, allowing waste heat from work conversion to supply the heat of retorting. … Clever albeit unclear if economically viable. The point pertinent to this thread is just that a variety of means will need to be used, not just any single generating source, and some unexpected means may become apparent. Its also not too far of an an aside from the Bloom Box, which also uses a solid oxide fuel cell, and from micro combined heat and power as a means of increasing efficiency and sparing the transmission infrastructure too. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-fossil-fuel-anti-nuke-people-whats-the-solution-to-our-energy-problem/576882/203 "2011-04-21T04:09:18Z")
I propose a Dyson Sphere. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-fossil-fuel-anti-nuke-people-whats-the-solution-to-our-energy-problem/576882/204 "2011-04-21T14:44:04Z")
> [@NetTrekker](#): > > Quit wasting so much. You don’t need a big-ass Cadillac Escalade or monster truck to run your errands around town or commute to work by yourself. Selfish, pretentious, greedy Americans are the biggest part of the energy problem. And then they want to trash the coastal shores and interior, drilling for more oil. Do you have a cite backing up your claim that Americans are the biggest part of the energy problem? The US’s share of the world’s energy usage is shrinking. Americans are right there in the thick of the renewables technology battle, which I would say it helping quite a bit more than most countries. If instead of selling China already-obsolete and dangerous nuclear technology, the US would perfect and sell China cleaner coal technology, the entire planet would thank us. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-fossil-fuel-anti-nuke-people-whats-the-solution-to-our-energy-problem/576882/205 "2011-04-21T16:30:26Z")
We’re not that bad in terms of electricity usage; we use less per capita than Canada, Sweden and Norway, to name a few. We’re really, really shitty when it comes to oil. We use 22 thousand barrels a day, which as of 2007 was a hair less than the usage of the _next 9 countries combined_. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-fossil-fuel-anti-nuke-people-whats-the-solution-to-our-energy-problem/576882/206 "2011-04-21T16:34:06Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Do you have a cite backing up your claim that Americans are the biggest part of the energy problem? The US’s share of the world’s energy usage is shrinking. Americans are right there in the thick of the renewables technology battle, which I would say it helping quite a bit more than most countries. > > If instead of selling China already-obsolete and dangerous nuclear technology, the US would perfect and sell China cleaner coal technology, the entire planet would thank us. China is at the forefront of alternative energy technology. They are going full ahead on developing non and low polluting energy. They will sell it to us . We are stuck in the past with a government that answers to big energy. They are doing fine right now. They are trying to get rid of the EPA . Does that sound like they are trying to pollute less? How about Cheney removing Fracking from the EPA aegis. Is that a way to clean? The planet already hates our energy policies. We have gone into lots of countries to make it better for big corporate interests. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-fossil-fuel-anti-nuke-people-whats-the-solution-to-our-energy-problem/576882/207 "2011-04-21T17:00:30Z")
Haha, yeah, China is definitely the world leader in environmental concerns. If only we could be more like the Chinese. Well, no, we’d all die of lung cancer and toxic water and soil and apocalyptic dust clouds before global warming could kill us, but still, no, China is awesome. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-fossil-fuel-anti-nuke-people-whats-the-solution-to-our-energy-problem/576882/208 "2011-04-21T17:11:13Z")
It’s gonz. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-fossil-fuel-anti-nuke-people-whats-the-solution-to-our-energy-problem/576882/209 "2011-04-21T18:37:57Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > China is at the forefront of alternative energy technology. I agree, but the US, Germany and Spain for instance, are never far behind. > [@](#): > > They are going full ahead on developing non and low polluting energy. I agree. > [@](#): > > They will sell it to us . That might be a good thing if the cost of modern renewables fell to within the budgets of smaller American companies and local cooperatives, but I think what we’ll see is China simply manufacturing things for our current corporate energy oligarchies. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-fossil-fuel-anti-nuke-people-whats-the-solution-to-our-energy-problem/576882/210 "2011-04-21T18:41:22Z")
I hope you said all that tongue in cheek, lev, but somehow I suspect you were serious. 😛 -XT ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2011, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-fossil-fuel-anti-nuke-people-whats-the-solution-to-our-energy-problem/576882/211 "2011-04-22T16:24:18Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > I hope you said all that tongue in cheek, lev, but somehow I suspect you were serious. 😛 > > -XT Why? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2011, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-fossil-fuel-anti-nuke-people-whats-the-solution-to-our-energy-problem/576882/212 "2011-04-22T16:30:38Z")
Why do I suspect you are serious, or why do I hope it was tongue in cheek? -XT ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2011, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-fossil-fuel-anti-nuke-people-whats-the-solution-to-our-energy-problem/576882/213 "2011-04-22T16:42:56Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Why do I suspect you are serious, or why do I hope it was tongue in cheek? > > -XT Do you have a problem with the claim that China is going hog-wild on renewables, besides nuke and coal? ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2011, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-fossil-fuel-anti-nuke-people-whats-the-solution-to-our-energy-problem/576882/214 "2011-04-22T16:49:23Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > China is at the forefront of alternative energy technology. They are going full ahead on developing non and low polluting energy. They will sell it to us . They will sell clean energy to us? We’re going to need a pretty long undersea cable for that. BTW, China is also building massive amounts of coal generation. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2011, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-fossil-fuel-anti-nuke-people-whats-the-solution-to-our-energy-problem/576882/215 "2011-04-22T17:03:36Z")
[QUOTE=levdrakon] Do you have a problem with the claim that China is going hog-wild on renewables, besides nuke and coal? [/QUOTE] They are going hog wild with ALL types of energy, since their energy demand is increasing by a huge amount. So, they are building every kind of energy production facility they can as quickly as they can. That means that, sure, they are building ‘renewables’…and they are also more than doubling their nuclear energy in the next 10 years. And they are building coal plants like wild as well…a lot of them not exactly the clean kind. They are hardly the ‘forefront of alternative energy technology’ as gonzo claims, and his implication that they are moving towards low emissions/low pollution is ludicrous…they recently (in 2007 IIRC) surpassed the US in total CO2 emissions, and they are one of the larges polluters in other types of pollution as well. If you want to make a case that they are building a lot of low emissions technology, then that’s fine…they are. But if you are like gonzo in implying that they are at the forefront of the technology, or that they are in any way reducing their emissions of pollutants like CO2 through their efforts, then you will be in the same laughable category as gonzomax, who’s posts are generally not reality based. Entirely up to you where you want to stand on all that, lev. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2011, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-fossil-fuel-anti-nuke-people-whats-the-solution-to-our-energy-problem/576882/216 "2011-04-22T19:31:57Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > We’re not that bad in terms of electricity usage; we use less per capita than Canada, Sweden and Norway, to name a few. > > We’re really, really shitty when it comes to oil. We use 22 thousand barrels a day, which as of 2007 was a hair less than the usage of the _next 9 countries combined_. Not really fair to use absolute numbers like that. The U.S. is the world’s largest economy by far, and is bound to use more energy than anyone else. In terms of energy intensity (energy use per dollar of GDP), the U.S. is better than a few countries, worse than others. China is just about on par with the U.S. in that regard. You also have to look at other factors, such as geography, the basket of goods the country exports (some require much more energy to create than others), etc. Countries in warm climates whose primary output is textiles and agricultural products don’t require as much energy as do countries in cold climate that manufacture hard goods like steel or cars. Small countries that pack everything in tight require less energy per capita than countries that have their population spread across thousands of miles. When it comes right down to it, the only way you can determine if a country is energy efficient is to drill down into the details - compare two similar factories and see which one is more energy efficient. Look at the energy cost of shipping goods per mile. Look at how energy efficient the typical home is. That sort of thing. When you do that, you’ll find that the U.S. actually looks pretty good. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2011, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-fossil-fuel-anti-nuke-people-whats-the-solution-to-our-energy-problem/576882/217 "2011-04-22T22:17:04Z")
[“China Far Outpaces U.S. in Cleaner Coal-Fired Plants”](http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/11/world/asia/11coal.html) [The G.E. China cleaner coal partnership.](http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/01/18/idUS341963861320110118) [More about Integrated Gasification Combined Cycle](http://www.clean-energy.us/facts/igcc.htm). I don’t see how we do it without some reliance on coal but at least there is some hope for new coal to be less harmful and more efficient in the future. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2011, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-fossil-fuel-anti-nuke-people-whats-the-solution-to-our-energy-problem/576882/218 "2011-04-22T23:31:57Z")
[QUOTE=DSeid] “China Far Outpaces U.S. in Cleaner Coal-Fired Plants” [/QUOTE] China is building more new clean coal plants than the US. And? They are building more new plants of EVERY kind than the US, because we already have all the plants to meet our needs (so we don’t need to build lots of new ones), whereas China is trying to catch up to it’s current energy demands as well as the demands that will surely emerge in the future, as their huge population needs more and more energy. I’m unsure what point this link was supposed to prove. > [@](#): > > I don’t see how we do it without some reliance on coal but at least there is some hope for new coal to be less harmful and more efficient in the future. The trouble is, China derives something like 80% of it’s power generation through coal, so even if it’s somewhat cleaner (which I believe means that it pollutes less, not that it necessarily produces less CO2), they have a huge need for energy that is only going to increase in the future as more and more of their citizens demand more and more energy. It’s got to come from somewhere…and that somewhere is going to continue to rely heavily on coal. Sure, they are building wind and solar like mad too…and currently both produce less than 2% of their power generation. They are building nuclear like mad too…and they THINK it might get them to 10% by the 2020’s. I’d say they have tapped out their hydro, though they may squeeze a few more percentage points out of that. But in the mean time their energy needs keep going up and up. -XT ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2011, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-fossil-fuel-anti-nuke-people-whats-the-solution-to-our-energy-problem/576882/219 "2011-04-23T00:28:39Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > They are going hog wild with ALL types of energy, since their energy demand is increasing by a huge amount. So, they are building every kind of energy production facility they can as quickly as they can. That means that, sure, they are building ‘renewables’…and they are also more than doubling their nuclear energy in the next 10 years. And they are building coal plants like wild as well…a lot of them not exactly the clean kind. Yeah. > [@](#): > > They are hardly the ‘forefront of alternative energy technology’ as gonzo claims, and his implication that they are moving towards low emissions/low pollution is ludicrous…they recently (in 2007 IIRC) surpassed the US in total CO2 emissions, and they are one of the larges polluters in other types of pollution as well. Just because they rely on coal as we do, plus will probably need much more coal, doesn’t mean they can’t be at the forefront of renewables. Last year they surpassed the US in wind capacity. China is well aware its coal use is going up, and is going to have to keep going up for awhile, but they are actively tackling the problem by building the crap out of everything. Their long-term goal is also to wean themselves off coal and oil, but they realize they won’t be able to very quickly. Doesn’t mean they aren’t trying their ass off. Would you rather they stopped developing renewables and just went whole hog on coal? > [@](#): > > If you want to make a case that they are building a lot of low emissions technology, then that’s fine…they are. But if you are like gonzo in implying that they are at the forefront of the technology, or that they are in any way reducing their emissions of pollutants like CO2 through their efforts, then you will be in the same laughable category as gonzomax, who’s posts are generally not reality based. Entirely up to you where you want to stand on all that, lev. > > -XT They’re not at a point where they can reduce their overall emissions, but that can drastically reduce the emissions they would otherwise have. We’re lucky the next 50,000,000 cars they put on the road probably won’t be nearly as inefficient and polluting as the 50,000,000 cars the US put on the road in the 60’s and 70’s, right? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2011, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-fossil-fuel-anti-nuke-people-whats-the-solution-to-our-energy-problem/576882/220 "2011-04-23T00:42:00Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > I’m unsure what point this link was supposed to prove … Oh, just trying to provide some actual facts that may inform the debate. The links actually provide some support to both sides of the discussion. China is building more more efficient plants and more efficient means less CO2. Of course, as **Una** pointed out when I first brought up this cite, America isn’t building much new coal at all. And indeed if one considers GE an American company then America is selling less dirty coal technology to China. They are rapidly growing their low CO2 portfolio and exporting some of the technology. Low CO2 technology is another industry for them try to dominate globally. But yes, first and foremost, they are expanding their electricity generation in every way they can. They have answered the question of “Nuclear, coal, renewables?” with “Yes.” Lower pollution and lower CO2 when possible, or perhaps more accurately, convenient, to do so, but all of the above and each as fast as possible. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-fossil-fuel-anti-nuke-people-whats-the-solution-to-our-energy-problem/576882.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-fossil-fuel-anti-nuke-people-whats-the-solution-to-our-energy-problem/576882.md?page=12)