Anti-Fossil Fuel, Anti-Nuke People: What's the Solution to Our Energy Problem

No, it’s really not. Not if your takeaway from it is, “DOE says we can do it, so we can do it.”

Quoting from the report:

Bolding mine. There are a lot of things in this world that are feasible, “if significant challenges are overcome”. Including safe, cheap nuclear power.

Also note that the partners in the assessment incude ‘Leading wind manufacturers and suppliers’ and ‘Others in the wind industry’.

I think this has to be treated as an advocacy piece, given the people involved. For example, the report spends a lot of its content describing the benefits of wind power, rather than just talking about the feasibility of building it.

It also appears that they started with the conclusion and worked backwards. They were told, “Hey, we want 20% Wind in 20 years. Write up a report that tells us what we need to do to get there.”

The report is fully of caveats, best-case scenarios, and starts off with a set of assumptions that may or may not be correct. For example, it assumes:

  • A stable policy environment supporting accelerated wind development
  • Capital costs for wind would be reduced by 10%, and capacity factors increased by 15%.
  • Future environmental study and permit requirements do not add significant costs to wind technology.
  • Cost of new transmission split between the project and taxpayers in the region

Plus a bunch of other things. We already know that there will be challenges to proposed wind farms by environmental and other groups, and that they will be expensive. Cape Wind got stopped because of it. Other big wind farms have been delayed and incurred costs due to environmental challenges. It’s unrealistic to assume that this will no longer be the case.

And by the way, if we applied those same assumptions above to nuclear power, it would be much, much cheaper. No environmental challenges, a 10% reduction in capital costs?

The report language itself heavily uses phrases like, "ambitious growth’, and ‘numerous challenges’. It also says, “a great deal of uncertainty remains about the level of contribution that wind could or is likely to make.” They then go on to say, “This report sidesteps those uncertainties.”

They also point out that there is another estimate of wind energy production out there: “In the 2007 Annual Energy Outlook (EIA 2007), an additional 7 GW beyond the 2006 installed capacity of 11.6 GW is forecast by 2030.”

So the EIA says that actual trajectory is for 7 GW more. This report calls for 305GW of additional expansion in the same time frame. That’s a pretty damned big gap!

Also, that last one about getting ratepayers to pay for transmission lines out to remote wind sites is essentially a subsidy for wind, since other energy sources don’t require that kind of expansion of grid transmission.

So these guys were asked to come up with a scenario for achieving 20% wind by 2030, and they did so. The question is whether the scenario is particularly realistic. It shows that it might be possible, but it also shows that it’s highly unlikely. It requires major changes to industry, an exponential increase in manufacturing and capacity while actually lowering cost - there aren’t necessarily economies of scale available here - if anything, a rapid build-up may increase costs due to shortage of trained labor and materials.

That report has a lot of stuff in it that makes me shake my head. For example:

That strikes me as an asinine comparison. Natural gas turbines are a completely different kind of animal - they are relatively inexpensive, using mature technology, and very energy dense. Just saying that you can build 16 GW of wind turbines per year because you’ve built 16 GW of gas turbines strikes me as an almost irrelevant point - like saying you can build the wind turbines because you build X number of cars per year. They are completely different technologies.

Let’s close by quoting the full conclusion of the report:

That’s not a very upbeat way to end, is it? So basically, this report is saying, “Okay, if we want to get to 20% wind by 2030 it might be doable, but there are a whole lot of roadblocks. We’d have to subsidize it, make major changes to the grid, get taxpayers to pay for the transmission lines out to the wind plants, figure out a way to lower costs by 15% and increase turbine efficiency. Oh, and we’ll have to shut down those environmentalists with their pesky lawsuits, and be really smart about how we organize our electricity infrastructure - much smarter than we are now. If we do all of those things, then maybe we can get to 20% wind if this one particular scenario holds and no other unforseen problems crop up.”

In other words, don’t hold your breath.

And think about the goal - 20% wind by 2030. Is that good enough for everyone? We have no problem getting 80% of our power from fossil fuels twenty years from now? I guess global warming isn’t quite the problem people say it is, if this is their idea of the proper solution.

Why didn’t you link to the report? Were you thinking it’s easy enough to google it? Well, you’re right about that. It’s also easy to find theEarly Release Overview and press release for the 2011 outlook report.

No mention of nuclear anything. Nada.

It does say:

A 3% increase in renewables between '09 and 2035? Really? C’mon. What are you selling?

Wind is moving fast, and it isn’t being driven primarily by state requirements. It’s being driven by big bucks.

When we talk about wind, it’s best if we keep to recent information, and not out-of-date old stuff. As for the 2011 EIA report, I dunno. I’m shaking my head about that.

The thing that always baffles me about these debates is… okay, so we’re quibbling over whether wind can make up 15% or 20% of our power in 20 years. Like… this is the big debate.

But let’s be generous and say it can make up 20%. WHERE DOES THE OTHER FUCKING 80% COME FROM?

FFS

No one in this fucking thread is anti-wind or anti-solar. We’re anti-coal. You saying “welp we can replace 20% of our generating capacity with wind” is just fucking fine and dandy it it works, but it does not address THE REST OF THE 4/5THS OF OUR ENERGY GENERATION.

Sure, but when you have billions invested in todays terrible energy plants, you have a huge financial incentive to keep things as they are for as long as you can. If you made a huge breakthrough that could cost you immediate profits , would you sit on it?
They would offshore the manufacturing in a second.

They are, in a lot of cases. China is building Generation III+ plants as fast as the pressure vessels can be manufactured. India, Russia, and China all have production Generation IV FBRs being built right now.

Pretty much the only place Generation III+ plants are NOT being actively planned and built is the United States.

I didn’t link to it because I was simply quoting from the Dept of Energy’s report. I’m not responsible for linking to every single source that shows up in a quote.

What’s your point? I never said anything about EIA’s report other than to quote a passage that references it in the DOE’s report.

Oh, so you think you’ve got a gotcha moment, then find out that the report doesn’t support your notion that renewables are going to supply all our energy needs? So then obviously the EIA is ‘selling’ something?

Yes, it is. I like wind power where it works. And where it works and is profitable, it’s already being invested in. That’s wonderful. The industry is growing. Great.

The problem is that there are a limited number of currently available profitable sites, and that once you get past the low-hanging fruit (areas of high wind on available land that no one wants to protest against, located conveniently close to power consumers and with grid access) wind gets a lot more iffy.

Here’s the difference between the two reports: The DOE’s report is a ‘scenario’ for what might possibly be attainable if everything works out perfectly, the government manages to come up with a very wind-friendly agenda and maintain it for twenty years, wind power gets cheaper and more efficient, and no one throws any wrenches into the grand scheme.

The EIA’s report is a description of what is actually happening. One’s reality, the other is wishful thinking. And unfortunately, the reality is that wind is not going to make up more than a few percentage points of U.S. energy needs in the foreseeable future. The DOE report should be considered the absolute upper limit of what might happen if everything turns out perfectly for wind power and huge resources are thrown at it.

2007 is not out of date when it comes to these things. Wind power technology isn’t moving that rapidly.

Sounds interesting, but how much lead do these things require? Wikipedia says we could be out of lead in 42 years at current usage rates.

I’m not against continued research in various nuclear power technologies, but I don’t see them making significant contributions to the world’s energy problems/needs in the next 30 years or so. Not even 50 years. 50 years from now my money isn’t going to be on nuclear or wind carrying the day.

However, 50+ years from now nuclear could play a large role in interplanetary space travel, so I wouldn’t shelve the technology.

My understanding is that the smaller reactors that are being proposed are in the 4,000ft[super]2[/super] total volume range. Other reactors with similar design and the same fuel efficiency but less awesome coolant can use pressurized helium or liquid sodium. The other nice this is that the design of the reactors implies a negligible induced radioactivity in the coolant, meaning the lead from these types of reactors is easily reused after decommissioning.

Interestingly, and regarding your comment on space travel, the most common place where liquid-metal fast reactors are in use today is Soviet-designed military submarines. The only one of which that has had any incident was a Generation II/III design prototype in the 1960s–none of their latest plants have had any incidents. When the Soviets couldn’t screw it up, you KNOW the technology is pretty safe. :smiley:

No, we’re the pro-progress group. You’re the ones clinging desperately like little kids to the old outdated fossil fuel industry.

Look back at the definition of Luddism. You oppose the move to new technologies. Renewable fuels is newer technology. That is much closer to Luddism than those of us who want to move beyond the heavy pollution and resource depletion that is inherent in fossil fuels.

Nevertheless I am impressed with the forceful he-man assertiveness that you used to push this misguided definition of “Luddism”. Er, no I’m not. I guess the more accurate word is, “amused” that you even tried to intimidate me with that.

We can only go by your actions, which speak loudly in contradiction to your disclaimer.

That’s using fossil fuel industry propaganda.

If your argument is that we can only replace 25% of our fossil fuel energy with solar and wind, then let’s replace that 25% right now instead of being held up by fossil fuel schill obstructionist “thinking”, if you can call it thinking. It sounds more like you have positions in the fossil fuel industry and you don’t want to see that stock go kerplat.

Then we can come back and show you that your “25%” is an extreme lowball estimate.

You assert, without much backing, that we can only supply 25% of our power with solar and wind. Go, fossil fuel energy positions!

You still think that we can’t do solar at night even though there already are purely solar-powered planes flying at night. That pretty much discredits your made-up-out-of-nowhere 75% figure. Bet that’ll do some damage to those fossil fuel stocks if the news of that night time solar powered flight got too widespread.

Your argument is nothing more than the typical head-in-the-sand strategy of persistent denials and lowballing of solar and wind energy’s current potential to contribute to the nation’s power grid. No doubt backed up by a nagging fear that your stock positions in various fossil fuel companies will suffer if people start realizing that what you’re saying is nothing more than self-serving industry propaganda.

Get 'em, dude! Way to defend those fossil fuel industry stocks!

Your argument flies like a solar powered plane at night.

Oh no, wait…

Let’s start out by immediately replacing 20-25% of our power with wind and solar energy.

Then after we subsequently find out that the fossil fuel industry propaganda is wrong and that wind and solar can replace FAR MORE than 25%, we can go to work on that. Immediately.

Then whatever is left of our energy demands that fossil fuels handles, we can start whittling away at that.

You are so amazingly dense.

I am not advocating for fossil fuels.

In fact, I am the person who is the most against using fossil fuels for power generation in this thread. I advocate less use of fossil fuels than you, Levdragon, Gonzo, or any of you.

In relative terms, you are the fossil fuel advocate here.

NOT OPPOSED TO RENEWABLES WHATSOEVER

WOULD LOVE FOR RENEWABLES TO MAKE UP 40% OF OUR GRID

WONDER WHAT WE’LL DO FOR OTHER 60%

CAN YOU UNDERSTAND THESE SENTENCE FRAGMENTS? BECAUSE MY NORMAL WRITING STYLE IS UNINTELLIGIBLE TO YOU APPARENTLY

I want to harness the power of the very splitting of the atom! You want to… burn stuff in a fire like we’ve done for thousands of years. If anyone is a luddite…

What actions?

When have I said anything remotely like this?

GET IT THROUGH YOUR THICK SKULL

I WANT ALL THE RENEWABLES WE CAN MUSTER

I WANT TO REDUCE THE USE OF COAL AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE

This makes me more anti-fossil-fuels than you.

You guys are seriously the most dense group of people on any side of any issue I’ve ever argued with on this board. You are worse than creationists. You are worse than the people who will defend every word Sarah Palin says. You just steadfastly refuse to EVEN UNDERSTAND WHAT THE ARGUMENT IS. WILLINGLY. EVEN THOUGH IT’S EXTREMELY SIMPLE. AND I HAVE STATED IT VERY CLEARLY.

You actually think that the people you’re arguing against are anti-newables, because we’re like robots programmed by the fossil fuel industry or something.

YOU CANNOT EVEN UNDERSTAND WHAT THE ARGUMENT IS DESPITE THOUSANDS OF PAGES OF THIS. FFS.

I can’t even deal with this anymore. It’s rare that I get worked up over an argument yet you guys are all so amazingly dense that you make me want to double our coal power generation just so humanity can come to a quicker end and the universe can be rid of you.

[QUOTE=Le Jacquelope]
Let’s start out by immediately replacing 20-25% of our power with wind and solar energy.
[/QUOTE]

:stuck_out_tongue: Why don’t we just wave a magic wand and create magic ponies that shit pure power and eat CO2 right from the air?? Dude…seriously. If we could just replace 20-25%(!!) of our power with wind and solar immediately we’d be doing it. Or, if you think that the US is in the pocket of Big Business™ or Evil Fossil Fuel Power(aar) then someone else would be doing it…like, say, the Chinese, who are trying desperately to ramp up their electrical generation. I mean, seriously…these guys are willing to spend literally billions and displace literally millions of people from their homes in the name of getting more power. Why aren’t THEY building their electrical generation based on wind and solar? Are they also in the pocket of the fossil fuel industry??

But then we’d wake up to reality. Well…some of us would. I suspect that reality and you are only very tenuous companions at best.

After that we can simply impose world peace, get rid of all human poverty and give everyone one earth a high standard of living, eliminate disease and make people immortal…and then give them all a unicorn in every pot! It must be nice to look at the world the way you do and not have to worry about any of that nasty reality stuff.

-XT

Sorry for my outburst there. I let it get out of control.

I argue all the time. I argue with some pretty hard headed people too - I argue creationism a lot, and on all sorts of bullshit topics like homeopathy and stuff. I deal with True Believers all the time. Yet even when you argue with creationists, they at least understand basically what you’re arguing for. They don’t understand why they’re ignorant about how evolution works and such, but they get the basic gist of the argument.

Some of the anti-nuke crowd, including some people here, don’t fundamentally even understand what the argument is. They somehow participate in these threads day after day, dozens, hundreds of posts - yet they never even understand what it is that their opponents are arguing. After all this, they still say HURR DURR MY OPPONENTS HATE RENEWABLES AND ARE IN THE POCKET OF FOSSIL FUEL no matter how many times everyone here repeats how pro-renewables they are. It’s such a simple thing too - it isn’t like evolution where there are a few steps to grasp. I mean all you need to understand is “we can’t 100% power ourselves with renewables, so what makes up the remaining percentage” - yet this completely baffles them. They say “you… want… nuclear… therefore you oppose renewables… therefore you’re pro fossil fuel” and just completely miss the point. This enrages me beyond all other inexplicable positions because the level of dense one must choose to be to seriously not understand what their opponents are even saying after hundred of pages of debates is a density level beyond any creationist I’ve ever argued with, it’s denser than a neutron star.

You might feel better if you realized that it’s not that they’re dense, but that they don’t have an answer to your argument. What you’re experiencing isn’t stupidity, but an unwillingness to engage in an argument they know they cannot win.

It’s like the first rule of politics - if you don’t have a good answer to a question, give an answer to the question you wish would have been asked instead.

This thread isn’t even the worst example. How about the notion that the way to save the economy is through creating ‘green jobs’? Not only can we get to a completely green energy future with no CO2 emissions, but it won’t even cost us anything! Hell, we’ll MAKE money doing it. We’ll create jobs! We’ll be the world’s leaders, and everyone will come beating down our door to buy our miracle green solutions!

That’s the fantasy the Obama administration has been peddling, and it’s complete nonsense. Anyone serious about energy understands that even if we need to go to renewables or nuclear or both to combat global warming, that change will come with a pretty steep price tag. It’s not a source of wealth, it’s a necessary economic drain.

It’s easier to build strawmen arguments or to demonize the people who are trying to give a more nuanced view of energy production from a realistic perspective than it is to actually address the arguments. Especially if you really, REALLY want alternative energy to work, and you really REALLY are afraid of nuclear energy. It’s like the folks who insist that sticking a gizmo on your car can really get you 200 miles per gallon, and that the only reason we don’t have them is that the evil auto industry overlords are keeping them from us to increase their profits. If you are convinced that it’s big business keeping all of these things from us (which makes no sense wrt wind and solar, as you can’t exactly go out and pick them from a tree growing wild in the empty lot across the street), then anyone trying to argue using realistic numbers or figures is going to seem to be part of the conspiracy.

And trying to convince such people that, in fact, you are all for alternative energy like wind and solar just doesn’t break through their expectations and assumptions…they don’t know how to take that information, so they fall back on strawmen.

-XT

What you don’t seem to get is that we don’t need to go with 100% renewables anytime this century or next.

Our goal is to reduce emissions 25 to 40 percent below 1990 levels or something. Guess what? That doesn’t require replacing 80% of our energy sources with magic. All we’re doing is reducing emissions.

Reduce its emissions and you can burn all the coal you want.

You seem to think if we don’t replace 80% of our current energy sources right now the Earth is going to burst into flame or something.

Calm down. It’s not that drastic.

China needs more power. Well, I don’t know why you’re enraged and ranting at us about China. India needs more power. The rest of the developing world needs more power. Rage at them. What do you want us to do, suck up their CO2? How?

What do you propose we use to replace 80% of our energy, not that we need to, but in your opinion - any ideas that don’t involve loincloths and lots of genocide?

My tard meter just broke.

[QUOTE=levdrakon]
What you don’t seem to get is that we don’t need to go with 100% renewables anytime this century or next.
[/QUOTE]

That’s not what he asked…he asked what makes up the remaining percentage. What’s your answer to that?

Reducing our emissions by 25 to 40% below what it was in 1990 is a huge task, since our emissions have gone up significantly since then. How do you plan to do that without magic? How would you reduce them by 25-40% below TODAY’S levels, for that matter? Since you discount nuclear, and since we’ve pretty much tapped out hydro, how do you do it?

:stuck_out_tongue: Have your cake and eat it too!

I guess it boils down to how much of a threat you really think Global Warming is going to be. If it’s no threat then there is no real urgency in reducing CO2, which is rising sharply, especially with countries like China and India producing larger and larger amounts of the stuff, and countries like those in Europe and the US only leveling off or perhaps producing slightly less.

Um…oh, well, then it’s ok I suppose. I mean, if it’s not that drastic and all, I guess it’s fine. It’s funny that you are all worked up over what’s going on in Japan, and constantly fret about radiation taking millions of years to become un-bad or something, but you are urging calmness about Global Warming, as if it’s just a minor issue. :stuck_out_tongue:

Seriously? You really don’t get it? Do you know what ‘offset’ means? It’s the process whereby the US, Europe, Japan, Canada, and all the other well developed and industrialized nations would reduce their CO2 output (in theory) by enough to offset the increase by countries like China, India and all the other rapidly developing countries, such that over all there is (hopefully) a reduction in CO2 and other gHg emissions and pollutants. Of course, we can’t do that, since the main thing we COULD use to do that is pretty much off the table…and the main things we are likely to use have no chance of even replacing the thing that’s off the table and will be fading with time. Can you guess what that main thing might be?

Well, I wonder what COULD be used that can actually scale up to provide a significant percentage of our electrical energy and doesn’t produce any CO2 or other pollutant emissions? It COULD do that…except that folks like you have poisoned that well so completely that it won’t.

I guess we are back to using coal for the next few decades or centuries and hoping that someone can get those freaking magic ponies going. I don’t believe that the loincloths and genocide solution is going to be too popular, outside of the subset of folks who are also opposed to that nasty nuclear stuff…

-XT

The obvious answer is nuke, all the way baby! I forget though, how are we doing that again?

WONK! Wrong answer. But thanks for playing. We have some marvelous parting gifts for you.

Nuclear is not going to happen. That train has left the station. That Elvis has left the building. That well has been poisoned. The RIGHT answer is…we’ll just keep producing our power with coal as our primary energy source for electrical power generation for the foreseeable future, with modest gains in wind and solar that won’t get beyond a few percentage points of our total energy production. If someone revives this thread in 10 years, we’ll have some more wind turbines, and some more solar plants…and they won’t have made up for the nuke plants that will be going off stream due to age and fear. So…we’ll probably be producing much the same amounts of CO2 in 10 years as we do today. Maybe, if we’re lucky, a touch less. Certainly not back to 1990 levels. And in the mean time, China will be producing even more in 10 years than they do today. And even more in the next 10 years than then. And so on.

Hope all that Global Warming stuff is, well, something we don’t need to worry about, and we can all be calm about it.

-XT