# Anti-gay bullying is "healthy peer pressure." **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 1, 2011, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-gay-bullying-is-healthy-peer-pressure/587479 "2011-07-01T04:46:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-gay-bullying-is-healthy-peer-pressure/587479/61 "2011-07-01T18:51:52Z")
> [@Penderel](#): > > I did not “support” bullying, but was making the point that it happens, it has always happened, and it always will happen, yet somehow most all people who’ve been bullied have been able to continue with their lives. The sky is not falling. “I did X and survived” is a bullshit argument no matter what point you’re trying to make. “I wasn’t vaccinated as a child and I survived.” “I had a neglectful parent and I survived.” “I eat the all-french-fry diet and I’m still alive.” Just because it is possible to _survive_ a shitty experience does not make the experience non-shitty and certainly does not mean that we shouldn’t work to help less people have to endure that shitty experience. Bullying can have a serious impact on someone’s life, from “minor” stuff like lowered self-esteem to major stuff like physical injury, suicide, etc. And by the way, your point that “bullying will always happen” is also bullshit insofar as you seem to be implying that nothing will ever change. Yes, I’m sure there will always be bullies. But I have kids in elementary school now and the atmosphere/culture is totally, 100%, completely different from when I was in school. All of the supposedly silly anti-bullying stuff that they do in schools is working pretty well to keep my nerdy, bookish, non-athletic son from being mocked or beaten in school. So yes, quelle surprise, things can in fact change. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-gay-bullying-is-healthy-peer-pressure/587479/62 "2011-07-01T18:55:51Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > From the cite 14.7% of all statistics are made up on the spot. > > And the word "gullible’ is not found in most dictionaries. You could look it up! > > Regards, > Shodan I am shocked – _shocked!_ – that you of all people would come into a thread to spew irrelevant bullshit. Sincerely. An Unusual Suspect ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-gay-bullying-is-healthy-peer-pressure/587479/63 "2011-07-01T19:11:22Z")
> [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > Hate to hit ya with the ‘cite’ outside of GD, but I barely post in GD, so I have to get my ‘cites’ off here. [Psychology Today](http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-big-questions/201106/homophobic-men-most-aroused-gay-male-porn) cite. > [@](#): > > I don’t think that’s good science right there. Sounds like pseudoscience. Establishing that a man gets an arousal watching gay porn doesn’t make him gay. The study doesn’t say it makes him gay, it shows that men who express the most homophobic attitudes show the most sexual arousal when viewing gay porn. Having said that, orientation is defined by attraction. If they are sexually excited by men, then they are homosexual (or at least bisexual) by definition. That’s what the word means. > [@](#): > > Many \*females \*get aroused watching two men having sex. So what? I don’t see your point here. That shows that women are sexually excited by seeing naked men. How does that refute the data that homophobic men are sexually excited by seeing naked men? > [@](#): > > Also, I question rather there is equipment that can properly judge that a man is turned on. Oh yes, there definitely is. I’ve seen it. It can measure surprisingly subtle levels. > [@](#): > > Furthermore, I know tons of females who are homophobic against gay men. They have all kinds of disgusting reasons for their bigotry, most of the time based in their own interpretation of their Christianity. So, I don’t know if I buy that quote of yours without a cite. You got the cite, but it only applies to men anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-gay-bullying-is-healthy-peer-pressure/587479/64 "2011-07-01T19:13:17Z")
> [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > I’m glad folks ignored my point that females also get aroused when watching gay porn, since that point makes no sense. nm. I misunderstood. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-gay-bullying-is-healthy-peer-pressure/587479/65 "2011-07-01T19:16:54Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > You and I have discussed this before. Those studies don’t necessarily show that homophobes are more likely to be gay because of a confounding variable, which is that some people get turned on by watching “naughty” stuff. So, a straight dude that thinks being gay is wrong (ie, he’s " homophobic") may also be turned on by naughty stuff, so he may get turned on just because he’s watching something he thinks is wrong. A better study would eliminate that variable by asking people what else they think is wrong and seeing if they also get turned on by that. As we discussed the last time, your use of the term “naughty” is _ad hoc_ and scientifically meaningless. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-gay-bullying-is-healthy-peer-pressure/587479/66 "2011-07-01T19:22:25Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > As we discussed the last time, your use of the term “naughty” is _ad hoc_ and scientifically meaningless. let me slow it down for you, bub. Do you think some people are turned on by viewing sexual acts they view as wrong? Out of homophobes and non+homophobes, which group thinks gay sex is wrong? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-gay-bullying-is-healthy-peer-pressure/587479/67 "2011-07-01T19:42:59Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > let me slow it down for you, bub. Do you think some people are turned on by viewing sexual acts they view as wrong? Out of homophobes and non+homophobes, which group thinks gay sex is wrong? I don’t think there’s any evidence to show that people are turned on by things _because_ they think they’re wrong. Homophobes also perseverate and fixate on gay sex in a way they don’t fixate on other kids of “wrong” sex. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-gay-bullying-is-healthy-peer-pressure/587479/68 "2011-07-01T19:49:31Z")
I think something can become extra-exciting because you’re turned on by it AND you think it’s wrong. But getting turned on simply by the wrongness of something even though you don’t find the thing itself arousing in the slightest? That seems…not right. And contradictory. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-gay-bullying-is-healthy-peer-pressure/587479/69 "2011-07-01T19:58:12Z")
The linked article actually started out okay: > [@](#): > > So what does “re-framing the issue” mean? > > It means changing the dialogue from homosexuality is bad behavior to bullying homosexuals is even worse behaior. And I was agreeing (except for the misspelling). But then the author went on to say this idea was wrong and he lost me. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-gay-bullying-is-healthy-peer-pressure/587479/70 "2011-07-01T19:58:51Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I don’t think there’s any evidence to show that people are turned on by things _because_ they think they’re wrong. That’s the point–these studies could serve as evidence of that exact thing. That’s what makes it a confounding variable–the studies don’t rule it out. Also, I think there is some evidence from general experience that some people are turned on by wrongness–things like rape fantasies and the like. > [@](#): > > Homophobes also perseverate and fixate on gay sex in a way they don’t fixate on other kids of “wrong” sex. Where in these studies does it say that the showed homophobes other types of wrong sex? ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-gay-bullying-is-healthy-peer-pressure/587479/71 "2011-07-01T20:04:54Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > I think something can become extra-exciting because you’re turned on by it AND you think it’s wrong. But getting turned on simply by the wrongness of something even though you don’t find the thing itself arousing in the slightest? That seems…not right. And contradictory. Well, the “thing itself” is sex that involves a man. Straight sex viewed from the man’s perspective is the exact same as gay sex–there’s something interacting with an erect penis and bringing it to climax. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-gay-bullying-is-healthy-peer-pressure/587479/72 "2011-07-01T20:05:38Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Also, I think there is some evidence from general experience that some people are turned on by wrongness–things like rape fantasies and the like. Yes, but I think generally people with rape fantasies aren’t fantasizing about being raped by someone they don’t otherwise find attractive in some respect. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-gay-bullying-is-healthy-peer-pressure/587479/73 "2011-07-01T20:09:46Z")
Eating a chick’s shit is naughty and forbidden and doesn’t in the least arouse me. If looking at a dude drilling another dude arouses someone, it isn’t because it’s forbidden, it’s because they find it sexually exciting. It being forbidden just makes it more juicy. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-gay-bullying-is-healthy-peer-pressure/587479/74 "2011-07-01T20:54:05Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Eating a chick’s shit is naughty and forbidden and doesn’t in the least arouse me. You apparently on turned by seeing people do naughty things. Others may be. > [@](#): > > If looking at a dude drilling another dude arouses someone, it isn’t because it’s forbidden, it’s because they find it sexually exciting. or it’s because they get turned on b naughty things. These studies can’t tell the difference. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-gay-bullying-is-healthy-peer-pressure/587479/75 "2011-07-01T21:06:07Z")
[QUOTE=Nzinga, Seated] I don’t think that’s good science right there. Sounds like pseudoscience. Establishing that a man gets an arousal watching gay porn doesn’t make him gay. [/QUOTE] The UGA study showed more than just men getting aroused when being shown gay porn. The participants were divided into groups- three IIRC, but for this I’ll just say Group A- those who identified as straight and homophobic and Group B- those who identified as straight but not homophobic. Each group was shown three types of pornography: gay male, straight, and lesbian. A “penile plethysmograph”, aka the “peter meter”, an electronic wire (doesn’t give a shock) that basically looks like a noose you’d use to hang a Barbie, was placed around their penii to measure tumescence from arousal (I’m sure you’ve heard “it’s not the length, it’s the girth!”- in this study if nowhere else it’s true). Far more members of Group A became significantly aroused by watching gay porn than did members of Group B. At the same time, _fewer_ members of Group A became aroused watching lesbian and straight porn than did Group B. At the end of the experiment they were asked “how much did that video turn you on?” and almost to a man the members of Group A who had been aroused, who had a wire looped around their bare penis and had to know damned good and well they were lying, said “Not at all”. You make a good point that many straight women are homophobic against gay men. It’s also worth noting that not ALL of Group A in the experiment were aroused by gay porn. I personally haven’t stated and don’t think most would that ALL homophobia is borne of internal denial, but I do believe a significant portion of it is, and I think that portion is even greater in men who are _extremely_ vocal about their dislike of gays, such as Rekers and Haggard and company. (Watch people like Andrew Shirvell [the guy who relentlessly stalked and blogged about and harassed the gay U of MI president] and Lindsey Graham [R-SC] and Marcus Bachmann- all three have mannerisms and voices that not only would it not surprise you in the least to learn they’re gay but they’re in fact closer to the gay stereotype than half the gay guys I know.) Unless I’m much mistaken, most straight guys, even those who have major prejudice against gays, just really don’t spend a whole lot of time thinking about gays and gay sex. Speaking of lesbian porn, the vast majority of it is not only purchased by but made for straight males. The greatest share of the audience for the U.S. version of the TV show _Queer as Folk_ (the first cable series in the U.S. to show frequent and graphic gay male sex scenes) was straight female. I think the latter is the bigger surprise to most people. ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-gay-bullying-is-healthy-peer-pressure/587479/76 "2011-07-01T21:16:30Z")
Sampiro, I actually know someone first hand who was a flaming homophobe. When he finally came out of the closet, he was pretty apologetic, though. So I don’t doubt that it happens, but I question that study. I haven’t clicked the links yet, but I will read the cites when I get home. It sounds pretty shakey though. So many variables that they can’t factor in. I think Rand makes a good point, but also… Let’s take rape. A woman might have a physical response to rape or molestation that looks like arousal. But that doesn’t mean she secretly wants to be raped. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-gay-bullying-is-healthy-peer-pressure/587479/77 "2011-07-01T21:21:11Z")
Yeah, she might have a physical reaction if she is actually physically being touched. But how does that account for someone getting aroused just watching something? ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-gay-bullying-is-healthy-peer-pressure/587479/78 "2011-07-01T22:10:10Z")
Just read Sampiro’s post. The lesbian part should count toward eliminating the confounding variable I was talking about, assuming that those in the homophobic group view female homosexuality to be as wrong as they view male homosexuality to be. ---
**Author:** ![Otara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a88e4f/32.png) [@Otara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otara)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2011, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-gay-bullying-is-healthy-peer-pressure/587479/79 "2011-07-02T00:06:59Z")
Has that study been replicated? 1980 and a sample of 30 or so people for each group on a highly charged topic is really a bit small to get too keen on the results. I detest homophobia, but its findings just feel a bit too neat for me, sexuality is usually a pretty complicated area. For one thing, the study divided on “heterosexual men how comfortable and anxious they are around gay men” rather than strength of stated beliefs about homosexuality, which is really a slightly different thing. And theres obviously the risk of confirmation bias when it comes to religious figures being caught. Otara ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2011, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-gay-bullying-is-healthy-peer-pressure/587479/80 "2011-07-02T00:07:52Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > You apparently on turned by seeing people do naughty things. Others may be. or it’s because they get turned on b naughty things. These studies can’t tell the difference. “No… you gotta test me again, Doc! I wasn’t ready! I… I forgot to tell you, I took ginseng this morning! Yeah! A big handful! And I was daydreaming and thinking about my wife! You _gotta_ give me a do-over! I WENT TO LAW SCHOOL, GODDAMMIT!” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-gay-bullying-is-healthy-peer-pressure/587479.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-gay-bullying-is-healthy-peer-pressure/587479.md?page=5)