# Anti-gay bullying is "healthy peer pressure." **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 1, 2011, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-gay-bullying-is-healthy-peer-pressure/587479 "2011-07-01T04:46:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2011, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-gay-bullying-is-healthy-peer-pressure/587479/121 "2011-07-03T14:47:18Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Probably some, if you punish it badly enough. But I think largely, that’ll just move it underground. That’s why I think teaching people to survive it and defend themselves are good solutions, and probably will be more effective than trying to stop it, not that we shouldn’t try to do all three. I disagree. People tend to follow social norms, and social norms can be adjusted. In the mid-70s, I think drunk driving probably looked like something that was unfortunate, but really couldn’t be stopped: people are people, and they like to go out and have a few–well, more like a several–and there really isn’t any changing that. But it DID change: yes, we still have drunk driving, but by all accounts it’s gone down significantly. The surrounding adults set a tone that can dramatically affect the amount of bullying in an environment. And while I agree that teaching kids to “survive it and defend themselves” is important, all too often it comes across as “It’s your problem, not theirs, find a way to deal with it”. ETA: and it’s not just about severe punishments. It’s about setting a tone that we don’t hurt other people any more than we pull down our pants and take a crap on the table. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2011, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-gay-bullying-is-healthy-peer-pressure/587479/122 "2011-07-03T14:59:07Z")
Agreed. And I’ll be honest, before I had kids, I probably would have thought that “just change the tone” was a stupid idea and would never, ever work. But as I posted earlier in the thread, I’m watching my kids go through a school system in which bullying is simply not tolerated, and changing the tone and the norms is surprisingly effective. Bullying isn’t considered just a part of schooling that you have to put up with, maybe by keeping your head down or maybe by fighting back. From what I can see, kids who try to bully are shunned very effectively, rather than being considered cool or powerful. It is quite a remarkable change from my own experience in school, and I do think that anti-bullying policies have a lot to do with it. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2011, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-gay-bullying-is-healthy-peer-pressure/587479/123 "2011-07-03T21:13:09Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > While it would be nice to stop bullying, I don’t know that it’s possible. I think it’s human nature to dislike or distrust people who are different or stand out, and for people to pick on those who are vulnerable. As a kid, I never had to deal with bullying. I was never bullied, never bullied others, never even saw other kids bulling other kids. It was wonderful and I would wish it on everyone. So yeah, I would say it’s possible. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-gay-bullying-is-healthy-peer-pressure/587479/124 "2011-07-04T23:04:29Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > Agreed. And I’ll be honest, before I had kids, I probably would have thought that “just change the tone” was a stupid idea and would never, ever work. But as I posted earlier in the thread, I’m watching my kids go through a school system in which bullying is simply not tolerated, and changing the tone and the norms is surprisingly effective. Bullying isn’t considered just a part of schooling that you have to put up with, maybe by keeping your head down or maybe by fighting back. From what I can see, kids who try to bully are shunned very effectively, rather than being considered cool or powerful. It is quite a remarkable change from my own experience in school, and I do think that anti-bullying policies have a lot to do with it. Yeap. I went to boarding schools where there were all sorts of opportunity for bullying. The difference in the schools where there was lots and the schools where there was little was entirely down to the attitudes of the faculty and administrators. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Bith\_Shuffle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ce73a5/32.png) [@The\_Bith\_Shuffle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Bith_Shuffle)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-gay-bullying-is-healthy-peer-pressure/587479/125 "2011-07-05T00:48:15Z")
> [@pedescribe](#): > > As a kid, I never had to deal with bullying. I was never bullied, never bullied others, never even saw other kids bulling other kids. It was wonderful and I would wish it on everyone. So yeah, I would say it’s possible. Could you describe your education, as a child? I can only imagine that you went to unusually placid schools of some sort, because I was bullied at Shorewood High School of Shoreline, WA, which is considered one of the city’s safest schools, and one in a great neighborhood to raise children. So your story sounds rather fantastic. I myself am inclined to think that bullying can be reduced to certain extents, but is definitely rooted in human nature. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-gay-bullying-is-healthy-peer-pressure/587479/126 "2011-07-05T06:24:21Z")
> [@David42](#): > > I’m surprised that anyone at this site would nbandy around words like homophobe, which is a word created by gay activists not psychologists and in usage is an insult for anyone who disagrees about any part of the gay agenda. Actually, the word was created by Dr. George Weinberg, who is a psychologist. And a rather prominent one, with a dozen books in 23 languages and many, many articles in psychological journals. ---
**Author:** ![Penderel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e47c2d/32.png) [@Penderel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penderel)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-gay-bullying-is-healthy-peer-pressure/587479/127 "2011-07-05T13:29:42Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > “I did X and survived” is a bullshit argument no matter what point you’re trying to make. “I wasn’t vaccinated as a child and I survived.” “I had a neglectful parent and I survived.” “I eat the all-french-fry diet and I’m still alive.” > > Just because it is possible to _survive_ a shitty experience does not make the experience non-shitty and certainly does not mean that we shouldn’t work to help less people have to endure that shitty experience. Bullying can have a serious impact on someone’s life, from “minor” stuff like lowered self-esteem to major stuff like physical injury, suicide, etc. > > And by the way, your point that “bullying will always happen” is also bullshit insofar as you seem to be implying that nothing will ever change. Yes, I’m sure there will always be bullies. But I have kids in elementary school now and the atmosphere/culture is totally, 100%, completely different from when I was in school. All of the supposedly silly anti-bullying stuff that they do in schools is working pretty well to keep my nerdy, bookish, non-athletic son from being mocked or beaten in school. So yes, quelle surprise, things can in fact change. Its a couple of days late, but I’m chiming in anyway. I didn’t say that bullying is ok because _I_ survived. My point is that most people come out just fine. It’s horrible that some kid would commit suicide because of bullying, but suicide is no newer an invention than bullying. It’s naive to think that everything bad will end because Tom Hanks did a kick-ass PSA. And saying that bullying will always happen is not a bullshit premise at all. Whether it’s a kid trying to get someone else’s milk money, an asshole coach, an aggressive driver, or a dictator threatening to launch missiles if they don’t get their way, bullying has always existed and always will. What changes is what we do about it. And by the way, people used to beat you up for saying things like “quelle surprise,” didn’t they? Yeah, me too. ---
**Author:** ![kayT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayt/32/3633_2.png) [@kayT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayT)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-gay-bullying-is-healthy-peer-pressure/587479/128 "2011-07-05T21:17:56Z")
> [@The\_Bith\_Shuffle](#): > > Could you describe your education, as a child? I can only imagine that you went to unusually placid schools of some sort, because I was bullied at Shorewood High School of Shoreline, WA, which is considered one of the city’s safest schools, and one in a great neighborhood to raise children. So your story sounds rather fantastic. I myself am inclined to think that bullying can be reduced to certain extents, but is definitely rooted in human nature. Not wanting to answer for **pedescribe** but I also was not bullied nor did I see anyone else being bullied. I went to a fairly small high school (I think around 700 students by my sr. year; my class had about 100 but we were at the beginning of the baby boom and all the rest were bigger) in a small town in the middle of farm country in Illinois. It was in the 60s. I wonder if the size of the school was the reason for lack of bullying or the time. I do think it was mostly that the parents and teachers would not have tolerated bullying though, and we all knew it. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-gay-bullying-is-healthy-peer-pressure/587479/129 "2011-07-06T05:13:19Z")
> [@Penderel](#): > > It’s a stereotype that gay men are not masculine and gay women not feminine, but it really doesn’t seem to be that far from the truth (using broad generalization). I don’t think it’s all that great of a leap. **Penderel** , I’d bet my car that **miss elizabeth** is straight. And definitely not masculine 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-gay-bullying-is-healthy-peer-pressure/587479/130 "2011-07-06T06:04:12Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > It might not be possible to stop it but it is certainly possible to lessen it. And certainly worthwhile to discourage it. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-gay-bullying-is-healthy-peer-pressure/587479/131 "2011-07-06T06:09:26Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > **Penderel** , I’d bet my car that **miss elizabeth** is straight. And definitely not masculine 🙂 But does your car have an automatic transmission? I suspect that’s what **Penderel** prefers to drive… ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-gay-bullying-is-healthy-peer-pressure/587479/132 "2011-07-06T06:12:35Z")
> [@The\_Bith\_Shuffle](#): > > Could you describe your education, as a child? I can only imagine that you went to unusually placid schools of some sort, because I was bullied at Shorewood High School of Shoreline, WA, which is considered one of the city’s safest schools, and one in a great neighborhood to raise children. So your story sounds rather fantastic. I myself am inclined to think that bullying can be reduced to certain extents, but is definitely rooted in human nature. It was, admittedly, an unusual set of years. As a little little kid, I went to a private school, which was both expensive and small–smaller than the Dunbar limit small. After I graduated from there, I was 11, and went straight to high school, where I got admitted into a gifted program within the high school as a whole. While that would seem an opportunity ripe for bullying, I made fast friends with the biggest and most influential kids in the program (not intentionally, mind–we just hit it off), and looking back I can’t help but wonder if they were protecting me behind my back. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-gay-bullying-is-healthy-peer-pressure/587479/133 "2011-07-06T07:11:09Z")
> [@Penderel](#): > > Its a couple of days late, but I’m chiming in anyway. I didn’t say that bullying is ok because _I_ survived. My point is that most people come out just fine. It’s horrible that some kid would commit suicide because of bullying, but suicide is no newer an invention than bullying. It’s naive to think that everything bad will end because Tom Hanks did a kick-ass PSA. > > And saying that bullying will always happen is not a bullshit premise at all. Whether it’s a kid trying to get someone else’s milk money, an asshole coach, an aggressive driver, or a dictator threatening to launch missiles if they don’t get their way, bullying has always existed and always will. What changes is what we do about it. > > And by the way, people used to beat you up for saying things like “quelle surprise,” didn’t they? Yeah, me too. I think there is a difference of degree being missed here. Kids are evil little shits to each other. I got bullied fairly often myself. I am 5’7" now which puts me on the short side of average height for a male. Growing up I was always the “small kid” and as a result a target of bullies. In my case I was “fortunate” to be the youngest with three much older brothers (all of whom are over 6’ tall today). As siblings often do we wrestled and fought so, much to the surprise of the bullies, I fought back. Bigger kids did not faze me…I dealt with them every day my whole life. In my experience bullies are all about intimidation and do not do well with active resistance. Generally after a few goes they gave up on me. Unfortunately we moved a lot so I had to regularly assert myself as the new kids targeted me (technically I was the new kid but hope you get my drift). So, I was one of the kids you describe as getting bullied and it was a normal course of events growing up. Frankly most kids probably do experience it. In school there are always bigger kids. Chances are most kids get pushed around some while growing up. But then are those kids who, for whatever reason, seem at the mercy of every kid in school. Even the kids at the bottom of the Totem Pole abuse them. They are the lowest of the low. Those are the kids who are at serious risk. The reason for their position below everyone are varied but sexual preference can be among them. Kids want nothing more than to “fit in”. If you are gay you do not fit in while in high school (probably). They feel they different on a fundamental level and it seems everyone hates them. If you add constant bullying it can be too much to bear. Every kid puts up with bullshit. For some though that bullshit is a daily occurrence and ostracized from anything like school society they suffer more than you or I ever did. ---
**Author:** ![Sablicious](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbce88/32.png) [@Sablicious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sablicious)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-gay-bullying-is-healthy-peer-pressure/587479/134 "2011-07-06T13:43:24Z")
Was [this](http://i51.tinypic.com/2zyzbfd.png) contrived or mere happenchance…? ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-gay-bullying-is-healthy-peer-pressure/587479/135 "2011-07-06T14:36:55Z")
Another note on bullying. When I was a teen, the atmosphere was, if you are bullied, you basically had to deal with it yourself. You really didn’t take it to the teachers. That even included sexual assault. To see that attitude change is a blessing. Not that bullying will stop, but the very idea that it is _wrong_ and not just “kids will be kids” and that you don’t have to suffer alone in silence… ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-gay-bullying-is-healthy-peer-pressure/587479/136 "2011-07-06T14:37:01Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I think there is a difference of degree being missed here. > > Kids are evil little shits to each other. > > I got bullied fairly often myself. I am 5’7" now which puts me on the short side of average height for a male. Growing up I was always the “small kid” and as a result a target of bullies. > > In my case I was “fortunate” to be the youngest with three much older brothers (all of whom are over 6’ tall today). As siblings often do we wrestled and fought so, much to the surprise of the bullies, I fought back. Bigger kids did not faze me…I dealt with them every day my whole life. In my experience bullies are all about intimidation and do not do well with active resistance. Generally after a few goes they gave up on me. Unfortunately we moved a lot so I had to regularly assert myself as the new kids targeted me (technically I was the new kid but hope you get my drift). > > So, I was one of the kids you describe as getting bullied and it was a normal course of events growing up. Frankly most kids probably do experience it. In school there are always bigger kids. Chances are most kids get pushed around some while growing up. > > But then are those kids who, for whatever reason, seem at the mercy of every kid in school. Even the kids at the bottom of the Totem Pole abuse them. They are the lowest of the low. > > Those are the kids who are at serious risk. The reason for their position below everyone are varied but sexual preference can be among them. > > Kids want nothing more than to “fit in”. If you are gay you do not fit in while in high school (probably). They feel they different on a fundamental level and it seems everyone hates them. If you add constant bullying it can be too much to bear. > > Every kid puts up with bullshit. For some though that bullshit is a daily occurrence and ostracized from anything like school society they suffer more than you or I ever did. This is a great post. I too was the small kid, but an only child. And a geek before geekiness was cool. I can only imagine, and empathize, with those who face ostracism – and turning a blind eye, or saying “the bullied will be with us always,” does not cut it. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-gay-bullying-is-healthy-peer-pressure/587479/137 "2011-07-06T14:39:05Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Kids want nothing more than to “fit in”. If you are gay you do not fit in while in high school (probably). They feel they different on a fundamental level and it seems everyone hates them. If you add constant bullying it can be too much to bear. > > Every kid puts up with bullshit. For some though that bullshit is a daily occurrence and ostracized from anything like school society they suffer more than you or I ever did. I want to reiterate a point I made earlier about an important distinction between gay bullying and other forms. Often if you’re bullied for being short or fat or redheaded or shy, you can usually find some sympathetic adult support from your school administration, your family and/or your church. For a lot of gay kids those adults are part of the problem - either they turn a blind eye to the bullying or they actively participate in it. So gay kids are more likely to have no one at all to turn to and no safe haven from bullying. In such circumstances, suicide becomes a much more attractive option. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-gay-bullying-is-healthy-peer-pressure/587479/138 "2011-07-06T18:12:24Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > But does your car have an automatic transmission? I suspect that’s what **Penderel** prefers to drive… Nope. Silvery-gray Yaris “Terra” hutchback, 2000. The Terra part means it’s got one and a half ponies, rather than horses. It’s been 7 years since I was Over There where automatics are the default, I don’t even remember what most of those letters you underlined stand for. I was bullied as a kid, but rarely by the kids; in my case, some of the worst bullies were teachers, my mother was the worst one (bad enough that seeing how she treated me was what got my classmates to never, ever so much as poke fun at me again), and for the years before my classmates had seen Mom in action, whether I got bullied or not depended simply on the teacher’s attitude. You don’t need punishments to stop bullying: same as a teacher who’s a bully will bring the class’s worst elements to the top, one with real authority will have the whole class toeing the line with no need to punish. ---
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-gay-bullying-is-healthy-peer-pressure/587479/139 "2011-07-06T19:42:03Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > **Penderel** , I’d bet my car that **miss elizabeth** is straight. And definitely not masculine 🙂 I have to be honest- I have no idea what you are getting at here. Just from your reputation, I am pretty sure you don’t mean it insultingly. But, for the record, I am not straight\*. Although I am pretty feminine. \*I’m bi, but I’m currently (and probably permanently) with a man, so I say you can keep your car. ---
**Author:** ![Penderel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e47c2d/32.png) [@Penderel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penderel)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-gay-bullying-is-healthy-peer-pressure/587479/140 "2011-07-06T19:50:23Z")
> [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > \*I’m bi, but I’m currently (and probably permanently) with a man, so I say you can keep your car. Dammit, I need a new car. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-gay-bullying-is-healthy-peer-pressure/587479.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-gay-bullying-is-healthy-peer-pressure/587479.md?page=8)