# Anti-gay Christians are merely bigots **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 10, 2015, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-gay-christians-are-merely-bigots/724810 "2015-07-10T22:26:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2015, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-gay-christians-are-merely-bigots/724810/281 "2015-07-19T16:07:19Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > ok, 60 years ago. but thats not really the point. This being _The Straight Dope_, I would hope giving a shit about the facts would be the point. ---
**Author:** ![TennisMenace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f05b48/32.png) [@TennisMenace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TennisMenace)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2015, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-gay-christians-are-merely-bigots/724810/282 "2015-07-19T16:24:26Z")
> [@Hiker](#): > > I have often been wondering about that: How relevant are the laws of the Old Testament for today’s Christians? Are they applicable in the same way as the New Testament is? Are they valid but only as long as the New Testament does not contradict them? Is there an “official” Christian anwer to this? > I am neither a Christian nor a Bible scholar, so I am presenting you with an authentic piece of my personal ignorance ready to be fought. Context is important. The Mosaic Law was given to the Jewish Nation of that time and it makes it very clear about this. Don’t forget, back then, God established a Theocracy, in which he ruled through his prophets, later judges, later kings, and then when His Son came and was rejected, bye bye Temple and hello to a NEW COVENANT. Google the words “New Covenant” and study this. I think this may help you get the wisdom you are desiring. There are I believe 613 Mitzvahs (laws) set forth through Moses and much cannot be followed today because there is no Temple in Jerusalem and much of the “Jewish” Civil Laws don’t apply today because I believe they were given to Israel for that time. However, some of those Mitzvahs make a lot of sense to me and I follow, but I do not do such out of compulsion, but because they make sense. (Don’t eat pig for one.) Finally, Jesus’s death took the sins of the WORLD on his shoulders, so an adulterer need not get stoned to death for his sins. Christ took the punishment for that person. Now, if you still want to stone an adulterer, go live in Iran. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2015, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-gay-christians-are-merely-bigots/724810/283 "2015-07-19T16:29:29Z")
> [@TennisMenace](#): > > Context is important. > [@](#): > > Jesus: For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. The earth is still here, right? ---
**Author:** ![TennisMenace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f05b48/32.png) [@TennisMenace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TennisMenace)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2015, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-gay-christians-are-merely-bigots/724810/284 "2015-07-19T16:34:39Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Tenet. And while the 10C does say to keep holy the Sabbath, Christians do it on the wrong day. Just nitpicks…I’m almost 100% on your side on the actual issue. FYI, I try to keep the Sabbath Day as it was originally intended, on Saturday, although I wont say, I got it right, and all the Sunday worshipper a got it wrong. I believe the 10 Commandments are special and above the 613 Mitzvahs, so I do put a much greater emphasis on them. But that is just me. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2015, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-gay-christians-are-merely-bigots/724810/285 "2015-07-19T16:36:24Z")
> [@TennisMenace](#): > > FYI, I try to keep the Sabbath Day as it was originally intended, on Saturday, although I wont say, I got it right, and all the Sunday worshipper a got it wrong. > > I believe the 10 Commandments are special and above the 613 Mitzvahs, so I do put a much greater emphasis on them. But that is just me. do you plan on starting a constitutional amendment to prevent people from working on sunday? ---
**Author:** ![Hiker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hiker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiker)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2015, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-gay-christians-are-merely-bigots/724810/286 "2015-07-19T16:37:36Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > This being _The Straight Dope_, I would hope giving a shit about the facts would be the point. But we can still put an emphasis on the facts that are actually relevant to the matter being discussed? ---
**Author:** ![Hiker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hiker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiker)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2015, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-gay-christians-are-merely-bigots/724810/287 "2015-07-19T16:40:37Z")
> [@TennisMenace](#): > > Context is important. The Mosaic Law was given to the Jewish Nation of that time and it makes it very clear about this. Don’t forget, back then, God established a Theocracy, in which he ruled through his prophets, later judges, later kings, and then when His Son came and was rejected, bye bye Temple and hello to a NEW COVENANT. > > Google the words “New Covenant” and study this. I think this may help you get the wisdom you are desiring. > > There are I believe 613 Mitzvahs (laws) set forth through Moses and much cannot be followed today because there is no Temple in Jerusalem and much of the “Jewish” Civil Laws don’t apply today because I believe they were given to Israel for that time. However, some of those Mitzvahs make a lot of sense to me and I follow, but I do not do such out of compulsion, but because they make sense. (Don’t eat pig for one.) > > Finally, Jesus’s death took the sins of the WORLD on his shoulders, so an adulterer need not get stoned to death for his sins. Christ took the punishment for that person. > > Now, if you still want to stone an adulterer, go live in Iran. Thanks for the info. If I get your point right, you are making a distinction between laws of which you believe they were given to Israel for that time and those that still apply today. What do you base that distinction on? Couldn’t the law we are discussing here, the banning of homosexuality, also have been meant for a different time? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2015, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-gay-christians-are-merely-bigots/724810/288 "2015-07-19T16:43:30Z")
> [@TennisMenace](#): > > FYI, I try to keep the Sabbath Day as it was originally intended, on Saturday, although I wont say, I got it right, and all the Sunday worshipper a got it wrong. > > I believe the 10 Commandments are special and above the 613 Mitzvahs, so I do put a much greater emphasis on them. But that is just me. TM, in case their is any confusion, I don’t think you are a bad person or anything and I think you are expressing yourself rather well in this conversation(s). There are a few people I know who are religious and I am friends with them and we get along well. I’m sure if we met we would most likely be friends. ---
**Author:** ![TennisMenace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f05b48/32.png) [@TennisMenace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TennisMenace)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2015, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-gay-christians-are-merely-bigots/724810/289 "2015-07-19T16:47:12Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Romans 1:26-27 > For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. > > 1 Corinthians 6:9 > Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality > > Jude 7 > just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire. > > 1 Timothy 1:10 > the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine, > So, the NT has some negative things to say about homosexuality but it is just a garden variety sin like any other. You can lie cheat and steal and still make it to heaven. Adultery is a sin, right? Ever heard of a massive christian crusade to stop adultery? (corinthians verse) Robert, Yes, the 9th Commandment says Thou shall not commit ADULTERY. You got me thinking- why hasn’t there been a massive anti-adultery crusade like there has been other crusades? I wonder if it is because adultery is usually practiced behind closed doors. I mean, how many people knew JFK was getting it on with Marilyn at that time? in fact, I wonder how many guys were envious rather than ready to pick up a stone to stone him for it. (Just being funny folks. My humor is not always funny.) :smack: ---
**Author:** ![TennisMenace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f05b48/32.png) [@TennisMenace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TennisMenace)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2015, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-gay-christians-are-merely-bigots/724810/290 "2015-07-19T16:50:30Z")
> [@Hiker](#): > > Thanks for the info. > If I get your point right, you are making a distinction between laws of which you believe they were given to Israel for that time and those that still apply today. What do you base that distinction on? Couldn’t the law we are discussing here, the banning of homosexuality, also have been meant for a different time? Simple test I apply- Moral laws usually continue on. Civil laws don’t…to Israel at that time. Although many Jews today still apply Mosaic Law (Hassidic, Orthodox). ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2015, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-gay-christians-are-merely-bigots/724810/291 "2015-07-19T16:50:47Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > This being _The Straight Dope_, I would hope giving a shit about the facts would be the point. You’d also hope that, having been called out on bullshit once, he be more careful about posting it a second time. But no, 1954 was also not like that. Maybe 1754. ---
**Author:** ![TennisMenace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f05b48/32.png) [@TennisMenace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TennisMenace)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2015, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-gay-christians-are-merely-bigots/724810/292 "2015-07-19T16:51:54Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > TM, in case their is any confusion, I don’t think you are a bad person or anything and I think you are expressing yourself rather well in this conversation(s). There are a few people I know who are religious and I am friends with them and we get along well. I’m sure if we met we would most likely be friends. Thanks Robert. I love you too. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2015, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-gay-christians-are-merely-bigots/724810/293 "2015-07-19T16:58:13Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > You’d also hope that, having been called out on bullshit once, he be more careful about posting it a second time. But no, 1954 was also not like that. > > Maybe 1754. How many remember when Everything was Closed on Sundays? Yes Boy’s and Girls there was a time when there was no were to go on Sunday except to Church or visit a relative. You might find a Drug Store open but that was it. Sunday was a day of rest for all, no exceptions except for our emergency workers, Police, Fireman, Nurses, Doctors, and Hospitals. As I look back that was the good times. Family together one day a week. Oh I forgot the restaurants were open in the evening in case you wanted to take your family out to dinner. [http://askville.amazon.com/remember-Closed-Sundays/AnswerViewer.do?requestId=16162515](http://askville.amazon.com/remember-Closed-Sundays/AnswerViewer.do?requestId=16162515) ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2015, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-gay-christians-are-merely-bigots/724810/294 "2015-07-19T16:59:59Z")
> [@TennisMenace](#): > > Robert, > Yes, the 9th Commandment says Thou shall not commit ADULTERY. > > You got me thinking- why hasn’t there been a massive anti-adultery crusade like there has been other crusades? No, it’s probably because heterosexual adultery involves a form of sex that is not repulsive to homophobes ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2015, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-gay-christians-are-merely-bigots/724810/295 "2015-07-19T17:03:30Z")
> [@TennisMenace](#): > > Thanks Robert. I love you too. 😃 Yes, but what about post 283? ---
**Author:** ![Hiker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hiker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiker)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2015, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-gay-christians-are-merely-bigots/724810/296 "2015-07-19T17:04:48Z")
> [@TennisMenace](#): > > Simple test I apply- > Moral laws usually continue on. > Civil laws don’t…to Israel at that time. Although many Jews today still apply Mosaic Law (Hassidic, Orthodox). So you are using your own rational thought to decide the matter. While I generally believe that to be a commendable approach, does it not mean you are treading on unsafe territory in terms of faith? I mean the Bible does not say that moral and civil laws are to be treated differently. I am not arguing with the distinction you are making, but I am wondering: Why do you believe that you are entitled to make a distinction? Because if you say that you can and that the distinction is valid, then you would have to be at least open to a debate with those who make a different distinction. At that point we would have moved away from the (not debatable) word of God to the (very debatable) human interpretation thereof, would we not? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2015, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-gay-christians-are-merely-bigots/724810/297 "2015-07-19T17:17:24Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > How many remember when Everything was Closed on Sundays? > > Yes Boy’s and Girls there was a time when there was no were to go on Sunday except to Church or visit a relative. You might find a Drug Store open but that was it. Sunday was a day of rest for all, no exceptions except for our emergency workers, Police, Fireman, Nurses, Doctors, and Hospitals. And donut shops. God loves donuts. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2015, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-gay-christians-are-merely-bigots/724810/298 "2015-07-19T17:17:37Z")
I have a more basic question. How do you know whether a law is “moral” or “civil”. Take the laws of kashrut. Is that a civil law? The rules around proper slaughter of animals certainly seem to have some aspects of morality around avoiding animal cruelty. Of course, they also have some elements that seen to be health regulations. And others are just obscure. You can eat a chicken, but not a crow. Why? You shouldn’t boil a kid in its mother’s milk. Is that because that was a ritual to some other God? Because it’s disrespectful to the animals? ?? You shall not yoke an ox to an ass. Moral? You may not plant two types if grain in a field. Civil? Or is there a moral problem with mixing unlike things? You shall sacrifice the first fruits of a tree to God, and not them. Is that just husbandry? Cropping too early reduces the lifetime productivity of many trees. Or is it meant to remind you that all good things come from God? I don’t think these are easy questions. ---
**Author:** ![Hiker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hiker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiker)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2015, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-gay-christians-are-merely-bigots/724810/299 "2015-07-19T17:20:29Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Yeah, but when was the last time christians tired to pass a constitutional amendment to outlaw adultery? Or Cohabitation? Or Lying? 40 years ago you couldn’t find a single store open in america on a sunday. Well, a few, but mainly just hospital and cops and such. You know, the Sabbath, do no work on. Have the tried to start a constitutional amendment to outlaw working on Sunday? How many more examples do I need to exhibit the rather blatant hypocrisy in which they are so heavily invested? The Sabbath is — a lot — more important as a tenant of their faith, it’s one of the 10 commandments. Regardless of when the law on Sunday opening hours was changed, I would not be surprised to hear that Christians have indeed opposed the decision at the time. But since that was a fairly long time ago, everyone has gotten used to it by now and for conservative Christians the matter is at best a lost cause. If you had a law today that said shops must be closed on Sundays, I guarantee you would meet fierce opposition toward any attempt to change that law. (We do have such a law over here in Germany and guess what happens whenever anyone suggests to change it?) The same sex marriage is a fairly new thing. For conservative Christians it is not yet a lost cause. They are not trying to change anything, just to prevent a change which collides with their moral standards. If I understand you right, your challenge of bigotry or hypocrisy is based on the assertion that Christians only profess to defend their faith when they oppose gay marriage, while in truth they do it, because they are repelled by homosexuality on a very emotional level. I suppose you are right for some of them and wrong for others. But it should not be relevant whether their Christian motivation is genuine, because in a multi cultural society the credo of one religion should not supersede the freedom of others. ---
**Author:** ![TennisMenace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f05b48/32.png) [@TennisMenace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TennisMenace)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2015, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-gay-christians-are-merely-bigots/724810/300 "2015-07-19T17:20:52Z")
> [@Hiker](#): > > So you are using your own rational thought to decide the matter. While I generally believe that to be a commendable approach, does it not mean you are treading on unsafe territory in terms of faith? I mean the Bible does not say that moral and civil laws are to be treated differently. I am not arguing with the distinction you are making, but I am wondering: Why do you believe that you are entitled to make a distinction? Because if you say that you can and that the distinction is valid, then you would have to be at least open to a debate with those who make a different distinction. At that point we would have moved away from the (not debatable) word of God to the (very debatable) human interpretation thereof, would we not? I do not believe God changes, thus, what was MORALLY wrong then should be morally wrong today. Like stealing, lying, sleeping with mother, etc. the 10 Commandments are moral laws. Plus, they all make sense. Lastly, most of the Mosaic moral laws are carried over in the NT and mentioned as such prohibitions. The Ceremonial Laws can’t be carried out because there is no Temple in Jerusalem, unless the Muslims rent out the Dome of the Rock. 😉 The Civil Laws I believe applied for that nation at that time, since God established a theocracy with them. No such government like that exists in America. :eek: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-gay-christians-are-merely-bigots/724810.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-gay-christians-are-merely-bigots/724810.md?page=16)