# Anti-gay Christians are merely bigots **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 10, 2015, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-gay-christians-are-merely-bigots/724810 "2015-07-10T22:26:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2015, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-gay-christians-are-merely-bigots/724810/301 "2015-07-19T17:30:00Z")
**TennisMenace** do you think that anal sex is immoral between men and women, or just between same-sex couples? A great many early Christians seemed to think it was the former- one Patriarch of Constantinople makes reference to men "committing the sin of _arsenokoitai_ with their wives. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2015, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-gay-christians-are-merely-bigots/724810/302 "2015-07-19T17:32:53Z")
> [@Hiker](#): > > Regardless of when the law on Sunday opening hours was changed… > > The same sex marriage is a fairly new thing… > > If I understand you right, your challenge of bigotry or hypocrisy is based on the assertion that Christians only profess to defend their faith when they oppose gay marriage, while in truth they do it, because they are repelled by homosexuality on a very emotional level… Yes, shops being closed on Sundays was a long time ago and probably it is a combination of acclimating to the idea and also it being such a marginal issue to most americans they would never be able to stop businesses from operating on sunday. Yes, you are correct, the main objection to SSM is because it involves icky gross anal sex. But that is also not really the point. Keeping the Sabbath holy is one of the 10 Commandments. Homosexuality is not on the list. For Christians to bring social or legal force against Homosexuality but not against breaking the Sabbath is a bit like a cop letting a bank robber run loose because he needs to go catch a kid spray painting graffiti on the wall of the school gym. Homosexuality is a sin, keeping the Sabbath is a Commandment, the selective application of focus is a staggering feat of hypocrisy. ---
**Author:** ![TennisMenace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f05b48/32.png) [@TennisMenace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TennisMenace)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2015, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-gay-christians-are-merely-bigots/724810/303 "2015-07-19T17:33:27Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > The earth is still here, right? Ok, ok, I will try to answer this one too, Robert. Here is the nuts and bolts answer to something very complex for many many theologians even. I believe Jesus will return and establish a Millenium Rule on Earth (1000 yrs). Theocracy will then come to the world and I believe the scriptures state that much of the First Testament Laws given to Israel back then will be re -continued and thus fulfilled in that 1000 yr rule. In other words, it ain’t over till it’s over. Again, context here- the Mosaic Law was given to the Nation of Israel (not China, not Russia, Not Bolivia, not even USA). Again, please google NEW COVENANT and have at it. I cannot pass on hundreds and hundreds of hours of study (big grin) in a few posts here. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Hiker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hiker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiker)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2015, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-gay-christians-are-merely-bigots/724810/304 "2015-07-19T17:34:40Z")
> [@TennisMenace](#): > > I do not believe God changes, thus, what was MORALLY wrong then should be morally wrong today. Like stealing, lying, sleeping with mother, etc. the 10 Commandments are moral laws. Plus, they all make sense. Lastly, most of the Mosaic moral laws are carried over in the NT and mentioned as such prohibitions. > > The Ceremonial Laws can’t be carried out because there is no Temple in Jerusalem, unless the Muslims rent out the Dome of the Rock. 😉 > > The Civil Laws I believe applied for that nation at that time, since God established a theocracy with them. No such government like that exists in America. :eek: There is a specific commandment against sleeping with one’s mother?!? The commandments make sense, because you interpret what makes sense to you into them. The sixth commandment says “Thou shalt not kill”. Some of the faithful actually take this literally and refuse to kill under any circumstances. They are, however, a minority. Most follow an interpretation that allows them to kill whenever it makes sense to them that it be allowed (in wars, in self defense, as capital punishment …). The history of Christianity is full of such interpretations. It is also full of changes to these interpretations that often coincide with changing moral standards in society as a whole. Of course every generation of Christians will do their best to apply the interpretaion that aligns best with what they believe to be God’s will. But it would not be entirely unfair to ask of them that they conisder the possibility of having it wrong. ---
**Author:** ![TennisMenace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f05b48/32.png) [@TennisMenace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TennisMenace)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2015, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-gay-christians-are-merely-bigots/724810/305 "2015-07-19T17:39:05Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > **TennisMenace** do you think that anal sex is immoral between men and women, or just between same-sex couples? > > A great many early Christians seemed to think it was the former- one Patriarch of Constantinople makes reference to men "committing the sin of _arsenokoitai_ with their wives. Wow, A wee bit personal, don’t ya think? But… I will answer because I think it might help in the discussion. Answer: Yes, so I won’t partake in such. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2015, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-gay-christians-are-merely-bigots/724810/306 "2015-07-19T17:43:15Z")
> [@TennisMenace](#): > > Ok, ok, I will try to answer this one too, Robert. Here is the nuts and bolts answer to something very complex for many many theologians even. > > I believe Jesus will return and establish a Millenium Rule on Earth (1000 yrs). Theocracy will then come to the world and I believe the scriptures state that much of the First Testament Laws given to Israel back then will be re -continued and thus fulfilled in that 1000 yr rule. > > In other words, it ain’t over till it’s over. Again, context here- the Mosaic Law was given to the Nation of Israel (not China, not Russia, Not Bolivia, not even USA). > > Again, please google NEW COVENANT and have at it. I cannot pass on hundreds and hundreds of hours of study (big grin) in a few posts here. :eek: I am well familiar with the NEW COVENANT and the prophecies in Isiah and the Jewish tradition of the sacrificial lamb. I know all about all of that. But you are ducking the point. The Earth is still here. As long as it is here not the smallest letter or stroke of a pen of the Law will change. That sounds pretty unequivocal to me. There is absolutely no ambiguity to the phrase “not the smallest letter or stroke of a pen”. Hasidic Law and Hasidic lifestyle is an excessively difficult path to follow but Matthew 5:18, the words of Christ himself, are quite explicit. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2015, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-gay-christians-are-merely-bigots/724810/307 "2015-07-19T17:45:50Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > How many remember when Everything was Closed on Sundays? … I do. And my husband, who is about my age, doesn’t. The timing of when blue laws were lifted varied a great deal from state to state. I grew up with blue laws, and despite being a Jew (so they were really inconvenient) I sort of miss them. It was nice having enforced rest on the weekend. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2015, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-gay-christians-are-merely-bigots/724810/308 "2015-07-19T17:49:12Z")
> [@TennisMenace](#): > > Wow, A wee bit personal, don’t ya think? > > But… > > I will answer because I think it might help in the discussion. > > Answer: Yes, so I won’t partake in such. Uh, what? This entire discussion is about sexual morality, so I don’t see how it was excessively personal. For the record, I don’t know if I would say ‘yes’ or ‘no’ to that question (for much of the early church, their condemnation of oral & anal copulation was part of a broader condemnation of nonprocreative sex, which I don’t share). But I think you can make a good plausible case for ‘yes’, and I find the idea that certain _sex acts_ are forbidden, no matter who engages in them, more plausible than the idea that the same acts are OK if an opposite-sex couple engages in them, but not OK for a same sex couple. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2015, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-gay-christians-are-merely-bigots/724810/309 "2015-07-19T17:55:00Z")
> [@TennisMenace](#): > > Ok, ok, I will try to answer this one too, Robert. Here is the nuts and bolts answer to something very complex for many many theologians even. > > I believe Jesus will return and establish a Millenium Rule on Earth (1000 yrs). Theocracy will then come to the world and I believe the scriptures state that much of the First Testament Laws given to Israel back then will be re -continued and thus fulfilled in that 1000 yr rule. > > In other words, it ain’t over till it’s over. Again, context here- the Mosaic Law was given to the Nation of Israel (not China, not Russia, Not Bolivia, not even USA). > > Again, please google NEW COVENANT and have at it. I cannot pass on hundreds and hundreds of hours of study (big grin) in a few posts here. :eek: I find I can’t take seriously any claim affecting all of Earth that is a mere 1,000 years. It’s like the 7th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution that provides for jury trials “where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars”. That may have seemed like an impressive sum in the late 18th century, but inflation has rendered it trivial. Similarly, a thousand years may have seemed impressive once, but our growing knowledge of the actual age of Earth (~4.5 billion years) makes it seem silly. ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2015, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-gay-christians-are-merely-bigots/724810/310 "2015-07-19T19:56:51Z")
> [@TennisMenace](#): > > I know the Bible, in the First Testament, discourages one guaranteeing someone else’s debt (surety), but I’m not aware about lending and borrowing being a sin. I also am aware of this following from Got [Questions.org](http://Questions.org): > > Moses addressed this issue in the Old Testament. Essentially, the Israelites were not permitted to charge interest when they loaned money to an impoverished brother. They could, however, charge interest on loans made to other, more affluent Jews and to foreigners. This rule was part of the Mosaic Law: “If you lend money to one of my people among you who is needy, do not be like a moneylender; charge him no interest” (Exodus 22:25; see also Psalm 15:5). This prohibition against charging interest actually included “food or anything else that may earn interest” (Deuteronomy 23:19). The purpose of the law was two-fold: an interest-bearing loan would only exacerbate the plight of the poor, and God promised a blessing on the gracious lender that would far surpass any interest he would make. Additionally, at the end of every seven years, creditors were to cancel all the debts they were owed by fellow Israelites (Deuteronomy 15:1). > > In the New Testament, Jesus tells us not to “turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you” (Matthew 5:42). He applied this principle even to our enemies in their time of need: “But love your enemies and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great” (Luke 6:35, emphasis added). Indeed, there are numerous passages throughout the Bible exhorting us to have a generous and giving heart, especially to the less fortunate. Moses taught his people, “If there is a poor man among your brothers in any of the towns of the land that the LORD your God is giving you, do not be hardhearted or tightfisted toward your poor brother. Rather be openhanded and freely lend him whatever he needs” (Deuteronomy 15:7-8). > > Read more: [What does the Bible say about lending money? | GotQuestions.org](http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-lending-money.html#ixzz3gHphm9Ar) > > Anyhow, I’m not aware of lending being a sin. Can you be specific? Thanks. Doesn’t Jesus’s exhortation not to expect to be repaid cover it? Is there a scriptural distinction between “stuff Jesus says not to do” and “sins”? But, if that’s controversial, let’s pick a better one: divorce. Why are Christians not up in arms against it? (Easy answer: because they don’t have prejudices against it.) Why do Christians fail to follow Christ’s instructions to give up their worldly possessions? Is there a difference in how the Bible treats that compared to homosexuality? (Yes, there’s a big difference: Christ never mentions homosexuality, but he frequently exhorts his followers to give up their possessions. Seems to me that this should make it more of an issue, not less.) My point is that there is a HUGE fuss among Christians against homosexuality, that is way out of proportion to its coverage in the Bible, compared to lots of things that are covered far more significantly and stressed to a far greater degree, that they ignore. The simple explanation for this is because the Bible isn’t the reason, it’s merely an excuse. ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2015, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-gay-christians-are-merely-bigots/724810/311 "2015-07-19T19:58:33Z")
> [@TennisMenace](#): > > Wow, A wee bit personal, don’t ya think? The question wasn’t whether you engage in it, but whether you think it’s a sin. That’s not a personal question; it’s a theological one. We really don’t care what you do behind closed doors! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2015, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-gay-christians-are-merely-bigots/724810/312 "2015-07-19T20:03:14Z")
> [@Learjeff](#): > > Doesn’t Jesus’s exhortation not to expect to be repaid cover it? Is there a scriptural distinction between “stuff Jesus says not to do” and “sins”? > > Why do Christians fail to follow Christ’s instructions to give up their worldly possessions? Is there a difference in how the Bible treats that compared to homosexuality? (Yes, there’s a big difference: Christ never mentions homosexuality, but he frequently exhorts his followers to give up their possessions. Seems to me that this should make it more of an issue, not less.) somehow I think this observation is very very very important… ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2015, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-gay-christians-are-merely-bigots/724810/313 "2015-07-19T22:10:33Z")
**TennisMenace** , **Robert163** , and everyone else: Take the disputes over reading or interpreting scripture to another thread. Regardless what (Christian) scripture does or does not say or what it does or does not mean, that is not the topic of this thread. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2015, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-gay-christians-are-merely-bigots/724810/314 "2015-07-19T22:40:17Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > **TennisMenace** , **Robert163** , and everyone else: > > Take the disputes over reading or interpreting scripture to another thread. > Regardless what (Christian) scripture does or does not say or what it does or does not mean, that is not the topic of this thread. > > [/Moderating] Really? The fact that many Christians selectively choose which bible passages to follow is not part of the topic “Anti-Gay Christians are merely bigots”? ETA: FOr the sake of board harmony I am willing to let your ruling stand. ---
**Author:** ![TennisMenace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f05b48/32.png) [@TennisMenace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TennisMenace)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-gay-christians-are-merely-bigots/724810/315 "2015-07-20T00:04:40Z")
Learjeff, I do agree with you that Christians have made a bigger fuss over homosexuality than it should be. In fact, I said that in one or two of my posts. There are bigger fish to fry if you ask me. TM ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-gay-christians-are-merely-bigots/724810/316 "2015-07-20T00:42:12Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Really? The fact that many Christians selectively choose which bible passages to follow is not part of the topic “Anti-Gay Christians are merely bigots”? You folks were going well beyond pointing out discrepancies in belief or behavior to get into actual theology. > [@Robert163](#): > > ETA: FOr the sake of board harmony I am willing to let your ruling stand. Good choice. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-gay-christians-are-merely-bigots/724810/317 "2015-07-20T00:46:39Z")
tomndebb, I am somewhat new to this board, and not certain what’s going on here. Can you please be a little more explicit about what is and isn’t the topic of this thread? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-gay-christians-are-merely-bigots/724810/318 "2015-07-20T00:59:16Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > You folks were going well beyond pointing out discrepancies in belief or behavior to get into actual theology. > > Good choice. I’m trying to act better 😃 ---
**Author:** ![TennisMenace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f05b48/32.png) [@TennisMenace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TennisMenace)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-gay-christians-are-merely-bigots/724810/319 "2015-07-20T01:15:03Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > **TennisMenace** , **Robert163** , and everyone else: > > Take the disputes over reading or interpreting scripture to another thread. > Regardless what (Christian) scripture does or does not say or what it does or does not mean, that is not the topic of this thread. > > [/Moderating] I apologize Moderator Tom, I kind of felt like we were (illegally) drifting off topic, but being a new guy in town and not wanting to appear snobbish by ignoring the seasoned Dopers here, I tried to answer all questions thrown my way. Next time I sense this is happening, I will do my best to deflect the answer. Thanks for all that you do here, TM ---
**Author:** ![TennisMenace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f05b48/32.png) [@TennisMenace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TennisMenace)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-gay-christians-are-merely-bigots/724810/320 "2015-07-20T01:17:23Z")
> [@Learjeff](#): > > The question wasn’t whether you engage in it, but whether you think it’s a sin. That’s not a personal question; it’s a theological one. We really don’t care what you do behind closed doors! 🙂 Yeah, you guys are right, it really wasn’t personal, but I took it personal, didn’t I! :eek: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-gay-christians-are-merely-bigots/724810.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-gay-christians-are-merely-bigots/724810.md?page=17)