# Anti-IMF demonstrators, go the hell home! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 26, 2002, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-imf-demonstrators-go-the-hell-home/129704 "2002-09-26T12:16:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2002, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-imf-demonstrators-go-the-hell-home/129704/81 "2002-09-29T21:09:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Olentzero \* > \*\* > **Dave** and all those asking “What do you think is real communism?” - I advise you to check out any and all GD threads on the subject in which I posted. I’ve been through this territory before, and I certainly don’t want to derail this thread to go over it. \*\* Some disciple for the cause you are. 😉 Seriously, answer here, where better? I’m not going to wade through pages of torturous GD threads trying to glean an answer. I asked a simple question that can be answered here without it being a hijack, so why not answer it? ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2002, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-imf-demonstrators-go-the-hell-home/129704/82 "2002-09-29T21:38:22Z")
**Daoloth** - I certainly don’t pretend to assert that any protest movement is idiot-free. (That having been said, I’d like to see outside confirmation that the device was some sort of nail bomb.) But to issue a blanket condemnation of a whole weekend of protests based on what the media chooses to play up is just damn silly. ---
**Author:** ![Crusoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/49beb7/32.png) [@Crusoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crusoe)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2002, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-imf-demonstrators-go-the-hell-home/129704/83 "2002-09-29T21:47:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Weirddave \* > \*\*Some disciple for the cause you are. 😉 > Seriously, answer here, where better? I’m not going to wade through pages of torturous GD threads trying to glean an answer. I asked a simple question that can be answered here without it being a hijack, so why not answer it? \*\* Probably because it’s not a simple question at all (any more than defining liberalism or communism is) and any answer inevitably ends up in GD territory. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2002, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-imf-demonstrators-go-the-hell-home/129704/84 "2002-09-29T22:19:25Z")
It is rather common for there to be debates in the pit. Olent has said several times “Thats not what I’m talking about”. The question “Well, what is, then?” is a fair one. ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2002, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-imf-demonstrators-go-the-hell-home/129704/85 "2002-09-29T22:54:55Z")
And one I’ve answered over and over again. Sorry if I don’t feel like singing that song one more time. ---
**Author:** ![Fang](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/96bed5/32.png) [@Fang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fang)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2002, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-imf-demonstrators-go-the-hell-home/129704/86 "2002-09-29T23:41:03Z")
[PCU] Protestor #1: “Free Nelson Mandela!” Protestor #2: “They freed him already!” [/PCU] ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2002, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-imf-demonstrators-go-the-hell-home/129704/87 "2002-09-30T14:23:31Z")
Well, I am gratified to see that the clueless demonstrators had smaller numbers than they anticipated, and rather than shutting down DC, made the Friday commute much more convenient than it usually is. Thanks, demonstrators! I found this [editorial](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A20615-2002Sep29.html) piece in today’s Post interesting. > [@](#): > > “International financial institutions,” according to a Friends of the Earth handout, are “pressing countries to privatize their water service systems as a condition for loans and debt restructuring.” > > This thesis has a few problems, starting with the fact that the World Bank did not promote the Cochabamba privatization. It had been involved in the early planning but had opposed the final version, objecting to the inclusion of a dam project in the deal. The bank argued that the dam’s cost would push water tariffs up steeply; Bolivia preferred to listen to local construction magnates who stood to make a fortune. The bank, in other words, had battled crony capitalism on behalf of the little guy – a subtlety lost on the protesters There are some strong criticisms that can be leveled against the World Bank and the IMF, like the inability to funnel private funds into emerging markets with weakened economies, like Argentina and Brazil, leading to possible default with a concomitant chain of consequences leading to global recession. These valid critiques, however, are lost on a pack of 18-year-olds who have never had a class in macroeconomics and hence fail to understand either the true strengths or weaknesses of the bodies that govern the global markets. And, of course, the vision of a nose-ringed, dreadlocked protester wearing China-manufactured Birkenstocks, drinking Indian chai , and downloading MP3s onto his hard drive made in Taiwan, all the while denouncing global trade, never fails to amuse. ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2002, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-imf-demonstrators-go-the-hell-home/129704/88 "2002-09-30T14:27:03Z")
Why are the majority of the protestors young, anyway? Don’t any older folk think protests work, or are they just too smart? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2002, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-imf-demonstrators-go-the-hell-home/129704/89 "2002-09-30T17:07:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Olentzero \* > \*\* > > I was in Philly. The group I marched with, and the groups with which my group marched with, kept to the route and didn’t throw rocks at anything. If you can come up with one actual group where you can prove they issued a statement of peaceful intent and then caused actual disruption, I will concede that _some_ groups probably lied. Otherwise, my personal experience in Philly proves you quite wrong. Depends on the group. Were you part of the peaceful, but unarranged march or part of the chaos that took place the next day? I put those two in seperate categories as their intent was to demonstrate, not disrupt (and they had a definable cause IIRC). The events of the next day were otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2002, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-imf-demonstrators-go-the-hell-home/129704/90 "2002-09-30T18:44:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > There are some strong criticisms that can be leveled against the World Bank and the IMF, like the inability to funnel private funds into emerging markets with weakened economies, like Argentina and Brazil, leading to possible default with a concomitant chain of consequences leading to global recession. Gobear my man, I don’t think this is per se a strong criticism. There is a serious issue here, but let’s be realistic. There is no easy way, and I am not even sure about hard way, to control/channel/direct private funds movements. I recently took part in an IFC sponsored private round table on this very subject. The problems discussed are legion. What may be neglected to date is Western education in regards to emerging markets investing and opportunities. The periodic crises loom large because of the inherent bias against new frontiers of activities, and I think an underlying not fully rational bias against 'the third world." I certainly see that problem in my own work. A valid criticism is more in these terms: IMF and WB tend to too easily adopt the idea that if developing nations adopt the right policies, etc. that funds will come. I am not sure of that, in fact the evidence says otherwise. The evidence, I think, suggests that strong "home turf"bias exists in investing, that this is quite strong if one adopts the “home turf” analysis to define Western investors’ home turf as not just their own country/region, but also the familiar developed world. I think then, there is real problem in regards to geting the developed world to put its money where its mouth is. However, with the continuous assaults from left and right on IMF and WB, I am not sure they have real leverage. I don’t know what the answer is. Really wish I did. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2002, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-imf-demonstrators-go-the-hell-home/129704/91 "2002-09-30T19:27:16Z")
> [@](#): > > A valid criticism is more in these terms: IMF and WB tend to too easily adopt the idea that if developing nations adopt the right policies, etc. that funds will come. we’re on the same page, and thank you for a clearer statement of what I was trying to say. > [@](#): > > The evidence, I think, suggests that strong "home turf"bias exists in investing, that this is quite strong if one adopts the “home turf” analysis to define Western investors’ home turf as not just their own country/region, but also the familiar developed world. Agreed, but I think there are degrees of objections to third world investment. Dealing with China or North Korea is perilous because all deals made with these governments are subject to revision by politicians looking for an exta slice, or the local joint partner’s corruption siphons off all the profits, as has happened recently with Pepsi and its factory in Sichuan province. The trouble with investing in South America is the risk of losing one’s shirt in nations with weak currencies and overwhelming unsecured debt. The maddening aspect is that SA nations have been very good clients, folowing the Washington consensus. If I were a serious investor, I’d put my faith in SA well before I’d sink any cash in Asia, especially with Japan’s ticking time bombs, er, I mean banks. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2002, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-imf-demonstrators-go-the-hell-home/129704/92 "2002-09-30T19:57:50Z")
This deserves to be transferred to the GD thread. I think I will do that in a moment. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2002, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-imf-demonstrators-go-the-hell-home/129704/93 "2002-09-30T20:00:26Z")
I look forward to it. ---
**Author:** ![Sofa\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/58956e/32.png) [@Sofa\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofa_King)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2002, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-imf-demonstrators-go-the-hell-home/129704/94 "2002-09-30T20:18:21Z")
Since this isn’t a GD thread yet… …I blame Jerry Garcia for all of this. Had he not so selfishly gone and died, these kids would all be taking LSD and honing their blunted intellects on the whetstone of raw Grateful Dead-show capitalism. Perhaps we can clone the band and have them start back up again. ---
**Author:** ![colour\_wolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/edb3f5/32.png) [@colour\_wolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colour_wolf)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2002, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-imf-demonstrators-go-the-hell-home/129704/95 "2002-10-01T07:39:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\* > I found this [editorial](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A20615-2002Sep29.html) piece in today’s Post interesting. > \*\* I wonder if he’s on the take like the other correspondent reporting from Cochabamba at the time. The overwhelming number of people in Cochabamba were opposed to the deal. The specific one that was made, not privitisation in general. The private company promised price hikes of no more than 35%, but the prices ended up double or even triple. You might want to check this [site](http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/stories/bolivia/timeline.html) and the related links for a pretty accurate timeline. I trust that Frontline is not too ‘liberal.’ > [@](#): > > The International Monetary Fund (IMF) approves a $138 million loan for Bolivia to help the country control inflation and bolster economic growth. In compliance with IMF-drafted “structural reforms” for the nation, Bolivia agrees to sell off “all remaining public enterprises,”\*\* including national oil refineries and Cochabamba’s local water agency, SEMAPA.\*\* (bolding mine) Chris ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2002, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-imf-demonstrators-go-the-hell-home/129704/96 "2002-10-01T12:15:25Z")
And then the World Bank opposed the specific privatization plan. Just like you said the general populace wanted privatization, just not that specific plan. You have no point, **colour wolf**. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2002, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-imf-demonstrators-go-the-hell-home/129704/97 "2002-10-01T12:25:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by vanilla \* > \*\*Why are the majority of the protestors young, anyway? > Don’t any older folk think protests work, or are they just too smart? \*\* There are plenty of older folks at the protests **I** go to. Heard of the Raging Grannies? ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2002, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-imf-demonstrators-go-the-hell-home/129704/98 "2002-10-01T13:19:24Z")
no. What do they represent?:eek: ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2002, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-imf-demonstrators-go-the-hell-home/129704/99 "2002-10-01T16:45:38Z")
They’re a really fun civil society group of elderly women who dress up in stereotypical granny outfits and head out to various kinds of protest (social programs, globalization, environment, etc.) Check it out: > **[Raging Grannies Action League](https://raginggrannies.tumblr.com/#_=_)** > > raginggrannies ---
**Author:** ![red\_dragon60](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ce73a5/32.png) [@red\_dragon60](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/red_dragon60)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2002, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-imf-demonstrators-go-the-hell-home/129704/100 "2002-10-01T20:21:13Z")
> [@](#): > > They chose to begin their rebellion on the first of January, 1994 to coincide with the implementation of the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) because it is a “death sentence.” According to Sub-Commander Marcos of the EZLN, “when [NAFTA] goes into effect it will represent an international massacre” because the treaty will only exacerbate the polarization of wealth in Mexico and hence increase the poverty and immiseration of the Mexican poor. From [here.](http://flag.blackened.net/revolt/mexico/comment/why.html) It might help to recognize that the EZLN had not revealed itself before NAFTA was put into action. The treaty is not their sole reason for existence. Also it might help to remember that Mexico under PRI rule wasn’t too keen on freedom to assemble, and was fond of using thugs to keep people in line. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-imf-demonstrators-go-the-hell-home/129704.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-imf-demonstrators-go-the-hell-home/129704.md?page=6)