# Anti-Jehovah's Witness tactics (need answer fast) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 14, 2009, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-jehovahs-witness-tactics-need-answer-fast/496434 "2009-05-14T18:12:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![salinqmind](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3ec8ea/32.png) [@salinqmind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/salinqmind)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2009, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-jehovahs-witness-tactics-need-answer-fast/496434/181 "2009-07-23T23:22:33Z")
Goodness. When people come to the door (I have it on the chain, open a few inches) selling something, I listen politely to get the gist. Then I say, “thank you, but I’m not interested. have a good day!” then I shut the door. Same with telemarketers. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2009, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-jehovahs-witness-tactics-need-answer-fast/496434/182 "2009-07-24T01:26:04Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > While it’s true that reading the Bible cover to cover isn’t any kind of sign of real knowledge of the Bible it depends on how it’s used. Often those fresh faced Christians who stop by to testify use Biblical quotes and have no more knowledge than those who read the Bible once ten years ago. In those cases a very cursory knowledge is all that’s required to discuss with someone else who also has a very cursory knowledge of the book they claim to value so highly and further claim to be God’s holy words. That’s entirely true. For my part, I’ve never expected anyone to be a scholar, _ever._ But if I go to a literature MB and assert Hemingway is a talentless hack I should be able to----_at the very least_-----give some examples of his transgressions. If, however, I assert he’s a talentless hack and I claim to have _read all his books_, than I shouldn’t be surprised if a Hemingway fan demands that I display some understanding, given the claim. If a Christian or atheist has the most cursory understanding and chooses to post their knowledge that’s great. They’re exposing themselves to the possibility that someone with a better understanding may refute them or make a more compelling argument. I say, “Welcome to GD.” I say: make your case. Don’t sell woof tickets. Nobody expects you to be a scholar, even if you [claim to have] read the bible. But claiming you’ve read the bible cover to cover-----especially in the context they’re being made-----does more than imply you have at least _some_ working knowledge. If you have _none_, than why in the world make the statement other than to impress or intimidate? > [@](#): > > I think the point is , “I _have_ read the Bible and remain unconvinced.” I think those who want to witness need to drop the “If you would only read God’s word you’d understand” shtick. Lot’s of folks have and remain unconvinced or even more convinced of the folly of aggrandizing any book. They both need to drop the line, because they’re both schtick. > [@](#): > > Let’s be accurate. Claiming to have read the Bible cover to cover isn’t automatically a claim of great Biblical knowledge. It depends on the nature and purpose of the discussion. I would say those that testify using biblical quotes should be expected to have a bit more knowledge about the book they are quoting. When it becomes apparent that they don’t someone who has simply read the Bible is only showing an equal cursory knowledge and demonstrating that their interpretation and/or opinion is just as valid. I’ve insisted on _some_ evidence, _something._ Only those challenged have made the statement, “I don’t claim to be a scholar” But that was never asked of them. There is an awful lot of real estate between being a scholar and making \*some \*argument. That appears to me to backtracking; ground cover because their keyboard couldn’t cash the check their ego issued. > [@](#): > > I think the question is whether your challenge of their knowledge is appropriate to the conversation underway. Your rush to criticize **rwj** is a good example. There are a lot of levels of Biblical knowledge among believers and non believers alike. There’s no reason to assume a factual statement of “I read the Bible cover to cover” is a claim of great biblical knowledge. Anyone , including Christians can cherry pick a few verses and make some claim about interpretation. Once again, the statment----- _“I’ve read the bible cover to cover!”_ doesn’t require a scholarly uinderstanding, but it sure doesn’t mean that it’s perfectly Ok to have _no_ understanding. (or be unwilling to put up) And I only partially agree----it is appropriate to the conversation underway, but appropriate to the claims being made. QtM claims to be a doctor. Bricker claims to be a lawyer. If I knew something about their field of study, I would hold their comments to a higher standard, because of their claims. Requiring more of them isn’t tantamount to expecting QtM to be qualified to be Surgeon General, or Bricker to be qualified for the SCOTUS. (although they may be) Saying I read the bible cover to cover doesn’t raise my expectation to “scholar” but it sure raises it to well above zero. But when challenged we almost universally get just that: zero. > [@](#): > > I’ve spent a lot of time in the NT but it only took a reading of Leviticus to confirm my suspicions that the OT didn’t hold much interest for me. I don’t think that prohibits me from challenging any Christian on beliefs and doctrine. Than you are better qualified to debate NT issues than OT, and to the extent you engage people in OT discussions you run the risk of them being more knowledgable than you; more often than it likely than a NT discussion. I’m sure you agree with that. In any event, the moment you tell me you’ve read the OT 7 times, it will be entirely reasonable for me expect something more of you. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2009, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-jehovahs-witness-tactics-need-answer-fast/496434/183 "2009-07-24T02:52:04Z")
Here’s a good tactic: Pretend you think the JW is the outcall escort you just ordered. “Wow! You got here fast!” 🙂 Next step . . . Oh, so **many** possibilities! ---
**Author:** ![rwjefferson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a6a055/32.png) [@rwjefferson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rwjefferson)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-jehovahs-witness-tactics-need-answer-fast/496434/184 "2009-07-27T22:15:15Z")
of waves of cloak and prophets [QUOTE=:)] And, as rwjefferson is concerned, you are right, and I was wrong… to be the first to tell of his biblical prowess [/QUOTE] Please fore give. It is not always easy to identify friend or foe. Any tongue not understood sounds as gibberish. Alas, even the most Biblically Prowest that serves not in the spirit of love and forgiveness is but cymbolically Banging his Holy Gong. Am I allowed to say that here? It is wise to be wary of foe. Please consider that beasts might be easier to identify and tame as you better know their mark and speak their tongue. It works for me. ItS harmony r~ ---
**Author:** ![Gr8Kat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gr8kat/32/18668_2.png) [@Gr8Kat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gr8Kat)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-jehovahs-witness-tactics-need-answer-fast/496434/185 "2009-07-28T08:21:57Z")
I know I’m probably a day late and a dollar short, coming into the thread at this point, but i’ve found a simple “Do Not Disturb - No Solicitors - No Proselytizers” sign works very well. Effective on Mormons as well as Jehovah’s Witnesses. Only people it doesn’t work on is kids selling stuff for school who don’t know what the big words mean. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-jehovahs-witness-tactics-need-answer-fast/496434/186 "2009-07-28T17:32:53Z")
> [@Bearflag70](#): > > Invite them to sit in the parlor, instructing them not to touch anything, emphasizing how valuable everything is. Point out a particular object and explain how rare and valuable it is. Make up some story about how you had to go to the bowels of Africa to get it. Ask them, “Isn’t it nice?” in an effort to get them to politely validate you from the start. > > Put on your monocle and smoking jacket. Offer them a scotch or bourbon. Light up your pipe, put on the most pretentious face you can, and begin with, “Please, tell me about this god of yours.” Listen, nod, and give a lot of "mmm-hmmm and “I see” and “fascinating” and “you don’t say” and “go on” as they speak. > > After they spill their story, tell them how quaint and primitive you think their beliefs are and “that will be all, thank you.” I apologize for just now returning to this thread, but that is just hillarious! ---
**Author:** ![intention](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e95f7d/32.png) [@intention](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/intention)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-jehovahs-witness-tactics-need-answer-fast/496434/187 "2009-07-28T20:11:49Z")
Witnesses have odd beliefs about the afterlife that you can use to your advantage. First off, they believe that heaven only has room for 144,000 people, it’s like a small suburb of Cincinnati or something. Unfortunately, that doesn’t leave any room at the inn these days. When I was a kid, some living people had already made reservations and been guaranteed rooms because of their sanctity … they were called the Elect, or somesuch. But they’re all dead now, and so these days, no heavenly apartments are available. That leaves everyone with two options in the afterlife, according to the Witlesses. One is that we go to hell with all of our friends. The other is that we go to a place which is just like the earth, except that there is no pain, no sorrow, no loss, no tragedy … and everyone there is a Jehovah’s Witness. Gag me with a spoon. No pain = no pleasure, no sorrow = no joy … although how they can claim “no pain” when their are only Witnesses to talk to is a Great Mystery which cannot be understood by the unwashed … I explain that I know all of that to the Witnesses when they come around, they already know it as well, so no dispute there. Then I tell them I’d much rather go to hell than be stuck for eternity in some place with no pain or sorrow and only Witnesses to talk to … I let them know that a place where I can only talk to Witnesses sounds like the real hell to me. Curiously, this seems to discourage them, and they go away. ---
**Author:** ![raindrop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/74df32/32.png) [@raindrop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindrop)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-jehovahs-witness-tactics-need-answer-fast/496434/188 "2009-07-28T21:03:28Z")
> [@Ponderoid](#): > > With the tactic I tried, it took 2 months for this pair. Even though they never got a return phone call like we required, they did show up uninvited a few days ago. And my housemate just refused to answer the door this time, huzzah. 🙂 They hung around 15 minutes or so before driving away. You really think it’s as simple as not answering the door? I doubt they’re done with you yet. JWs don’t give up that easily. Simply not answering the door will not get rid of them. Did either of you explicitly tell them not to come back? Others have recommended to simply tell them “no thanks,” but with JW you have to EXPLICITLY tell them “no thanks, _and don’t come back again_,” or else they will come back again. At least that’s how it works in my neighborhood. I told them “no thanks” plenty of times, but they still came back. My “No JWs” sign on the door works good though. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-jehovahs-witness-tactics-need-answer-fast/496434/189 "2009-07-28T21:37:32Z")
I had 2 JW come to my door recently, and the solution was as I was lead, which is through them ‘out of book’. ask them ‘who is Jesus’, they know scriptures very well, but they seem to be disorientated once you ask them what is there witness of Jesus, what has He done personally in their life, pointing out how Paul always pointed to Jesus may be helpful. Don’t be satisfied with things written in scriptures, just simply agree that is public knowledge, but you want to know what Jesus did for them and how they came to know Him as we are called by Him to be witnesses, what is their testimony for what Jesus done for them personally. > [@intention](#): > > Gag me with a spoon. No pain = no pleasure, no sorrow = no joy … No pain does not equal no pleasure. Everything is possible with God, and a simple and accurate way of looking at it is ever increasing pleasure and joy ---
**Author:** ![intention](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e95f7d/32.png) [@intention](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/intention)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2009, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-jehovahs-witness-tactics-need-answer-fast/496434/190 "2009-07-29T01:23:46Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > … > No pain does not equal no pleasure. Everything is possible with God, and a simple and accurate way of looking at it is ever increasing pleasure and joy Oh, great. “Everything is possible with God” … gag me with a spoon. God can make 2 + 2 = 7.3 … I hope God sends Jehovah’s Witnesses to your door every day for the rest of your life. w. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2009, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-jehovahs-witness-tactics-need-answer-fast/496434/191 "2009-07-29T01:41:06Z")
> [@intention](#): > > Oh, great. “Everything is possible with God” … gag me with a spoon. God can make 2 + 2 = 7.3 … I hope God sends Jehovah’s Witnesses to your door every day for the rest of your life. > > w. I think it’s obvious that kanicbird did not mean that everything is metaphysically possible for God, but that everything is epistemically possible for God. In other words, He cannot make a contradiction true (in ordinary FOPL), but He can do whatever is known to be possible. I thought it was unfortunate that you neglected to address her solution to the problem of there being no joy without sadness or no pleasure without pain, which itself is an old canard that no one has proven. Her solution that there would be ever increasing joy and ever increasing pleasure is a fine solution. I realize that kanicbird has a bad reputation around here, but it is logically incoherent to ignore her solutions when they are reasonable ones, no matter how few and far between they might be, just because you see the username and suffer a gag reflex. ---
**Author:** ![intention](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e95f7d/32.png) [@intention](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/intention)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2009, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-jehovahs-witness-tactics-need-answer-fast/496434/192 "2009-07-29T07:17:02Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > I think it’s obvious that kanicbird did not mean that everything is metaphysically possible for God, but that everything is epistemically possible for God. In other words, He cannot make a contradiction true (in ordinary FOPL), but He can do whatever is known to be possible. > > I thought it was unfortunate that you neglected to address her solution to the problem of there being no joy without sadness or no pleasure without pain, which itself is an old canard that no one has proven. Her solution that there would be ever increasing joy and ever increasing pleasure is a fine solution. > > I realize that kanicbird has a bad reputation around here, but it is logically incoherent to ignore her solutions when they are reasonable ones, no matter how few and far between they might be, just because you see the username and suffer a gag reflex. My gag reflex was not to the name. It was to the idea that anything was possible for God. It is not at all obvious that she meant only “epistemically possible”. It is not even obvious that she knows what “epistemically possible” means. Epistemically means in a manner pertaining to knowledge. How does the possibility of perpetual joy pertain to knowledge? Perpetual joy sounds like those Viagra ads that say “If your erection lasts over four hours, see a doctor”. I suppose you could claim that has something to do with knowledge as well. Since it’s carnal knowledge, I guess with God’s intervention it is carnepistemically possible to have a permanent erection. She said “anything”. I assume she meant what she said. If you wish to be her apologist and claim she meant what she did not say, that’s up to you … although why you want to jump in and defend her before she defends herself if a mystery revealed only to those with true faith. Me, until she shows up and can give us a clear definition and distinction between “metaphysical” and “epistomological”, I’ll stick with the dumb idea that she actually meant what she said. Whether there can be white without black or up without down or X without “not-X” can be argued, I suppose, along with how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. I note that she obviously thinks that in the real world there can’t be joy without sorrow, because she has to invoke God to make it happen. So she doesn’t believe what you are espousing. Finally, to claim something must be true or possible just because it is a “fine solution” is wishful thinking. A “fine solution” to 37X^2 + 4X + 9 = -7 is 3. It’s a wonderful solution, a fine and intellectually satisfying solution, it avoids all of those ugly square roots and imaginary numbers … but it’s still wrong. However, if your idea of heaven is perpetual joy with only Jehovah’s Witnesses to talk to, my heartfelt wish is that you actually end up there. To me, perpetual joy sounds terminally boring, I’m a guy that enjoys the changing of the seasons and the fact that we have both day and night. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2009, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-jehovahs-witness-tactics-need-answer-fast/496434/193 "2009-07-29T16:20:09Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > I think it’s obvious that kanicbird did not mean that everything is metaphysically possible for God, but that everything is epistemically possible for God. In other words, He cannot make a contradiction true (in ordinary FOPL), but He can do whatever is known to be possible. I don’t think it’s obvious that she thinks that. > [@Liberal](#): > > I thought it was unfortunate that you neglected to address her solution to the problem of there being no joy without sadness or no pleasure without pain, which itself is an old canard that no one has proven. Her solution that there would be ever increasing joy and ever increasing pleasure is a fine solution. Actually, I had been toying with challenging the “No pain = no pleasure, no sorrow = no joy” in **intention** ’s original post, because I believe that it’s not the case - you may be deprived of _relief_, or even gratitude, but in my experience it’s possible to maintain a placid sense of sufficiently non-neutral contentment to qualify as persistent happiness, even if you’re not giving a single thought to past trials. It would seem, to me, to simply the natural psychological reaction to having all your needs satisfied - even if they never have not been. But that said, I don’t see how ever-increasing joy is going to solve the problem of pleasure requiring pain (presuming it does). By definition, for this to work, the difference would have to be stark enough to make your memories of your past days in heaven _painful_. Literally. Which would mean that our present experience would be polluted with memories of past, er, suffering. (Plus you get into the rather dodgy issue that your entire experience in heaven, except the current day, is suboptimal - which I’m told isn’t the way things are supposed to be in heaven.) Again, I don’t think this is a problem that needs fixing, but even if it is I don’t think **kanicbird** ’s solution really would fix it. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2009, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-jehovahs-witness-tactics-need-answer-fast/496434/194 "2009-07-29T16:26:25Z")
> [@Shirley\_Ujest](#): > > Your friend invited them in. It’s her problem, not yours. If she can’t say no to someone selling GOD door-to-door, then she has a problem. Rescuing her is not your problem. They are like Dracula. Once you invite them in, it’s all over. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![intention](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e95f7d/32.png) [@intention](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/intention)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2009, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-jehovahs-witness-tactics-need-answer-fast/496434/195 "2009-07-29T19:47:15Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > … > > Actually, I had been toying with challenging the “No pain = no pleasure, no sorrow = no joy” in **intention** ’s original post, because I believe that it’s not the case - you may be deprived of _relief_, or even gratitude, but in my experience it’s possible to maintain a placid sense of sufficiently non-neutral contentment to qualify as persistent happiness, even if you’re not giving a single thought to past trials. … My point is that e.g. “happy/unhappy” or “light/dark” is a\* comparative \*state. If we ask “Is this particular shade of gray “light gray” or “dark gray”?”, we can only answer “Compared to what?”. Compared to black, all grays are light … but compared to white, all grays are dark. Here’s an example from physiology. In a bright moon, we can read a newspaper, and distinguish the “white” paper from the “black” ink. But in fact, the “white” paper in moonlight puts out less reflected light (is less white) than the “black” ink in full sunlight. Now … is the moonlit paper whiter or blacker than the sunlit ink? The same is true of happiness. Am I happy? Compared with what? Compared to a man being tortured, I’m very happy. Compared to a man in samadhi, I’m miserable. Compared to myself yesterday, I’m happy … but compared to last week, I’m depressed. But how about if there was no one else and no yesterday … am I happy compared to how I am right now? That can’t be answered, and that’s why I say there is no joy without pain. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2009, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-jehovahs-witness-tactics-need-answer-fast/496434/196 "2009-07-29T21:00:13Z")
> [@intention](#): > > My point is that e.g. “happy/unhappy” or “light/dark” is a\* comparative \*state. If we ask “Is this particular shade of gray “light gray” or “dark gray”?”, we can only answer “Compared to what?”. Compared to black, all grays are light … but compared to white, all grays are dark. > > Here’s an example from physiology. In a bright moon, we can read a newspaper, and distinguish the “white” paper from the “black” ink. > > But in fact, the “white” paper in moonlight puts out less reflected light (is less white) than the “black” ink in full sunlight. > > Now … is the moonlit paper whiter or blacker than the sunlit ink? > > The same is true of happiness. Am I happy? Compared with what? Compared to a man being tortured, I’m very happy. Compared to a man in samadhi, I’m miserable. Compared to myself yesterday, I’m happy … but compared to last week, I’m depressed. > > But how about if there was no one else and no yesterday … am I happy compared to how I am right now? > > That can’t be answered, and that’s why I say there is no joy without pain. I disagree. The issue isn’t whether there is a continuum of “more happiness” and “less happiness” - nobody disagrees with that. As you note, the question is what happens when the thing to compare with is removed - “if there was no one else and no yesterday”. When you remove all the colors but red, red doesn’t stop being red - we may just stop caring about the fact it _is_ red. It’ll keep reflecting light of the same frequencies but we just won’t care, due to the fact that the color doesn’t distinguish it from anything in any way. But what happens when you remove all other levels of happiness but one? Well, you’d might get desentized to a degree. But then again, you might _not_. Desensitization as I understand it is sometimes a function of sensory overstimulation, and sometimes a function of lack of reason to differentiate. But happiness isn’t about senses or differentiation, it’s about your current mental state. And so it will continue to apply and effect you regardless of whether it changes. Take hunger, specifically two hypothetical people, one who is _always_ hungry, and one who is _never_ hungry. Either person may be unaware that there is a better or worse way to be - in that regard they would be limited by their singular perception. But the two people’s situations are still different. The hungry person will have stomach cramps and weakness, constantly; they will not ‘get used to it’. The hunger is part of their physical state and effects them interminably. The perpetually satisfied person will not suffer these pains. They may not be _appreciative_ of this fact, since they don’t know that they’re missing, but they still won’t be the same. Now, happiness. This is part of your mental state, and will continue to effect you regardless of other factors. I strongly suspect that being constantly at placid peace is different than being in permanent mental turmoil, even if you have never experienced the other. And because of that I don’t think that it’s _entirely_ subjective. Heck, I personally don’t rule out the possiblity that it may be possible to permanently lock youself into a state of perpetual orgasmic ecstacy, and _never_ get bored, because your brain is too busy being ecstatic to shift to the ‘bored’ mental state. If ecstacy can be triggered by directly maniplating the brain, there’s no reason to think that that trigger would stop working with use, after all. ---
**Author:** ![intention](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e95f7d/32.png) [@intention](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/intention)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2009, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-jehovahs-witness-tactics-need-answer-fast/496434/197 "2009-07-29T22:41:42Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > … I strongly suspect that being constantly at placid peace is different than being in permanent mental turmoil, even if you have never experienced the other. … So you ask one “How do you feel?”. He says “Just like I always feel, no better, no worse.” You ask the other “How do you feel?” He says “Just like I always feel, no better, no worse.” From the outside we can see a difference … but from the inside? Both say “It’s just another day, just like every other day, no better, no worse, it’s all I’ve ever known” … If today is just like any other day … where’s the perpetual joy? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2009, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-jehovahs-witness-tactics-need-answer-fast/496434/198 "2009-07-29T23:08:54Z")
> [@intention](#): > > So you ask one “How do you feel?”. He says “Just like I always feel, no better, no worse.” > > You ask the other “How do you feel?” He says “Just like I always feel, no better, no worse.” > > From the outside we can see a difference … but from the inside? Both say “It’s just another day, just like every other day, no better, no worse, it’s all I’ve ever known” … > > If today is just like any other day … where’s the perpetual joy? If you really think that you would not find the experience of living in perpetual rage, or continual suicidal depression, different from living in placid happiness or continuous orgasm… …well honestly I can’t conceptualize that another human could really not comprehend that different feelings feel different. The mere hypothetical of such a person has broken my brain. I will note that your argument seems not to be that people can’t be perpetually happy - it seems, instead, that you are arguing that people can’t be _aware_ that their perpetually happy mental state is something ‘special’. Which I don’t contest, but - who cares? If you’re happy, then you’re happy. Even if you don’t realize that you could be gloating about it, or whatever. ---
**Author:** ![intention](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e95f7d/32.png) [@intention](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/intention)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2009, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-jehovahs-witness-tactics-need-answer-fast/496434/199 "2009-07-30T02:23:11Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > If you really think that you would not find the experience of living in perpetual rage, or continual suicidal depression, different from living in placid happiness or continuous orgasm… > > …well honestly I can’t conceptualize that another human could really not comprehend that different feelings feel different. The mere hypothetical of such a person has broken my brain. > > I will note that your argument seems not to be that people can’t be perpetually happy - it seems, instead, that you are arguing that people can’t be _aware_ that their perpetually happy mental state is something ‘special’. Which I don’t contest, but - who cares? If you’re happy, then you’re happy. Even if you don’t realize that you could be gloating about it, or whatever. Perhaps my writing is not clear, but you didn’t answer my question, viz: > [@](#): > > From the outside we can see a difference … but from the inside? Both say “It’s just another day, just like every other day, no better, no worse, it’s all I’ve ever known” … > > If today is just like any other day … where’s the perpetual joy? My point is that we only say “I’m happy” because we have something to contrast it with. If we have nothing to contrast it with, ithen all we can say is “It’s just like any other day, no better, no worse”. It’s like asking an aquarium fish what he thinks about the water .. it’s just water, same water as always, no warmer, no colder, no different. So what could the fish possibly say about it? Perhaps the water is slightly hotter than that fish might thrive in … but it’s always been that temperature. Is the fish able to say “It’s a bit too hot”? No way, because he has\* nothing to compare it to. \*So while the fish is hot, it doesn’t know that … because that’s all he’s ever known. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2009, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-jehovahs-witness-tactics-need-answer-fast/496434/200 "2009-07-30T17:26:12Z")
> [@intention](#): > > Perhaps my writing is not clear, but you didn’t answer my question, viz: > > > [@](#): > > > > From the outside we can see a difference … but from the inside? Both say “It’s just another day, just like every other day, no better, no worse, it’s all I’ve ever known” … > > > > If today is just like any other day … where’s the perpetual joy? > > My point is that we only say “I’m happy” because we have something to contrast it with. If we have nothing to contrast it with, ithen all we can say is “It’s just like any other day, no better, no worse”. It’s like asking an aquarium fish what he thinks about the water .. it’s just water, same water as always, no warmer, no colder, no different. So what could the fish possibly say about it? Perhaps the water is slightly hotter than that fish might thrive in … but it’s always been that temperature. > > Is the fish able to say “It’s a bit too hot”? No way, because he has\* nothing to compare it to. \*So while the fish is hot, it doesn’t know that … because that’s all he’s ever known. The thing that immidiately popped to mind was that the fish could say “I’ve been boiled to a golden brown”, or “I’ve been flash-frozen”. Like with emotions, there’s a _functional_ difference between various temperatures, which can be experienced even if you have experienced nothing else. Where is the perpetual joy? I had thought my answer to that was obvious from the first paragraph of my response. The perpetual joy is in the head of the person experiencing the perpetual joy. The happy-juices are flowing and they feel energized and uplifted. That’s what it _means_ to be experiencing joy - the emotion isn’t dependent on any other emotion to occur. Heck, emotions aren’t even on a linear continuum. There is happiness, sadness, and anger. We know anger and sadness are both “less happy” than “happy”, but which is “less happy” than the other? If you were correct and emotion was _nothing_ but a comparative measure, then we’d have to know that to be able to experience anger and sadness as different things! The same goes for surprise, curiousity, boredom, embarassment, confusion - if these states are identical except in comparison to one another, then _clearly_ you would be able to describe them in terms of their comparative relationship to other emotions. In fact, that would have to be the **only** way to describe them. You are getting all hung up over the fact that the person experiencing perpetual joy will feel no inclination to comment on it, due to it being the normal state. And it’s probably true that perpetual joy would not inspire a person to go around commenting on it all the time. But the fact that perpetual joy wouldn’t be noteworthy is _completely irrelevent_ to whether the person is able to experience perpetual joy at all. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-jehovahs-witness-tactics-need-answer-fast/496434.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-jehovahs-witness-tactics-need-answer-fast/496434.md?page=11)