# Anti-Moore Website Posts Link to Download "Fahrenheit 911" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 2, 2004, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-moore-website-posts-link-to-download-fahrenheit-911/253141 "2004-07-02T00:39:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![cmason32](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@cmason32](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmason32)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2004, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-moore-website-posts-link-to-download-fahrenheit-911/253141/1 "2004-07-02T00:39:19Z")
Apparently, the anti-Moore group “Moore Watch” has posted a link on their website to an illegal bit torrent of the film. [http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5342052/](http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5342052/) > [@](#): > > NEW YORK - The war between Michael Moore and his critics has escalated as a Web site targeting the “Fahrenheit 9/11” director posted a link to an illegal “Fahrenheit” file download. In the process, it also attacked the filmmaker’s stance on copyright law. > > A June 27 posting on the site [MooreWatch.com](http://MooreWatch.com) invites visitors to download the film. It quotes Moore, though it doesn’t cite a source, as encouraging such downloading by saying: “I don’t agree with the copyright laws, and I don’t have a problem with people downloading the movie and sharing it with people. As long as they’re not doing it to make a profit, you know, as long as they’re not trying to make a profit off my labor. I would oppose that.” > > Tom Ortenberg, president of Lions Gate Films Releasing, which is distributing the film with IFC Films and Harvey and Bob Weinstein’s Fellowship Adventure Group, said Wednesday that his company is exploring legal action. > > “I think it’s deplorable what enemies of ‘Fahrenheit 9/11’ are doing,” he said. “We are currently looking into our legal options. We are not going to tolerate anybody trying to infringe on (this film’s release). Even if Moore did say that quote, which MooreWatch doesn’t cite, it’s not his decision to make. The distributor owns the rights to the movie. I hope that Lion’s Gate sues the living shit out them. These tactics are dispicable. So fuck you, MooreWatch, for blatantly and willfully violating the law to attack a political enemy. I hope criminal charges are brought against you. ---
**Author:** ![Snooooopy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Snooooopy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snooooopy)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2004, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-moore-website-posts-link-to-download-fahrenheit-911/253141/2 "2004-07-02T00:48:52Z")
That’ll teach Moore a lesson he’ll never forget! There’s no better way to intimidate a filmmaker than to make it easier for people to see his movie! ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2004, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-moore-website-posts-link-to-download-fahrenheit-911/253141/3 "2004-07-02T01:19:42Z")
Guess we find out how much class the man has. My bet is he shrugs it off. We’ll see. But I’m betting he made the movie to make his point, more than to make his bucks. Which means he’s more interested in being heard than in being paid. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2004, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-moore-website-posts-link-to-download-fahrenheit-911/253141/4 "2004-07-02T01:22:53Z")
Riiiiight. He has the most noble of motives. Sure he does. Hell, I’ll bet he’d do it for free, which is of course why he had it released to theaters rather than the Internet. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![cmason32](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@cmason32](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmason32)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2004, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-moore-website-posts-link-to-download-fahrenheit-911/253141/5 "2004-07-02T01:26:32Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Guess we find out how much class the man has. My bet is he shrugs it off. We’ll see. But I’m betting he made the movie to make his point, more than to make his bucks. Which means he’s more interested in being heard than in being paid. My guess is that he doesn’t care that much about it. I bet he figures that some republicans are likely to watch it that otherwise wouldn’t. I doubt the distributor feels similarly. However, what bothers me most is that this is a group that is willfully breaking the law in an attempt to hurt a political opponent. Such a tactic is reprehensible and shouldn’t be allowed to continue. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2004, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-moore-website-posts-link-to-download-fahrenheit-911/253141/6 "2004-07-02T01:31:06Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#): > > Riiiiight. He has the most noble of motives. Sure he does. Hell, I’ll bet he’d do it for free, which is of course why he had it released to theaters rather than the Internet. :rolleyes: Eh, it wouldn’t take noble motives to shrug this off and laugh about it. He’s already making bundles on the thing, and I’d guess far more than he ever expected too. I’m betting he’s as amused as **Snooooopy** at the inept tactics of his enemies. ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2004, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-moore-website-posts-link-to-download-fahrenheit-911/253141/7 "2004-07-02T01:33:54Z")
[Here’s](http://www.flirble.org/mirror/Michael_Moore_about_filesharing.avi) Moore’s statement ( **Warning: 5+ MB .avi file** ). It took approximately a nanosecond to find, in case you were wondering if reporters were lazy. It confirms what some people are saying in this thread, that he “does OK” (or similar words) and isn’t worried about people filesharing the movie unless it’s for profit - his main motivation is for people to see the film. The OP may or may not be correct that whether to make the video available for free internet distribution is Lion’s Gate’s decision to make and not Moore’s – I’m unaware of any public discussion of the contractural terms it made with the production company, Moore, or anyone else. And Moore chose not to delve into ownership issues when he addressed the issue (unless one were to intrepret his use of the first-person singular in referring to the film as a claim of ownership rather than authorship). In the absence of further information or a clarification from Moore, I’d think any suit against someone distributing the movie for free on the internet would be on shaky ground if it did not include Moore as a codefendant. But IANAL. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2004, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-moore-website-posts-link-to-download-fahrenheit-911/253141/8 "2004-07-02T01:36:34Z")
FWIW, I’ve seen the Moore quote about him not caring about copyright in other places, so it’s probably unique. And I’m sure that Moore will whole-heartedly support and defend the owners of this website. Even assuming, as **Doors** does, the worst possibly motives on Moore’s behalf: 1. He’s smart enough to recognize the massive propaganda coup in supporting the efforts of his enemies to more widely distribute his message. 2. He knows that no matter what he says, his studio is going to prosecute these guys. And almost certainly win, even if Moore himself shows up as a witness for the defence. Moore isn’t the only copyright holder for this film, and more than just his permission is required to freely distribute it. So, he’s win-win. He can make himself look good by standing up for his detractors, and he still gets to see his detractors punished to the fullest extent of the law. ---
**Author:** ![cmason32](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@cmason32](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmason32)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2004, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-moore-website-posts-link-to-download-fahrenheit-911/253141/9 "2004-07-02T01:39:51Z")
> [@manhattan](#): > > in case you were wondering if reporters were lazy. A lazy reporter? Clearly, sir, you speak nonsense. No such thing exists. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2004, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-moore-website-posts-link-to-download-fahrenheit-911/253141/10 "2004-07-02T01:53:07Z")
A good strategy for Moore might be to wait until it’s made all it’s going to make in theaters, then release a medium quality version of the film for free on the internet (yes, he’d have to get permission from the studio, which is unlikely). The DVD sales/rentals might not be effected as much, since they’d be high-quality plus with added features to lure customers. It also wouldn’t surprise me if he found a way to get it on the 'net anonymously in a high-quality version. He might be thinking that since he already make more bucks of the thing than he expected, what the heck. It would be viewed be more people, and hence help change more peoples minds to vote against Bush, which is probably his ultimate goal. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2004, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-moore-website-posts-link-to-download-fahrenheit-911/253141/11 "2004-07-02T01:56:24Z")
> [@manhattan](#): > > In the absence of further information or a clarification from Moore, I’d think any suit against someone distributing the movie for free on the internet would be on shaky ground if it did not include Moore as a codefendant. But IANAL. Did you mean codefendant or did you mean plaintiff? Because I’m unsure as to the cause of action you’re suggesting anyone would have against Moore. As for Moore’s presence as a plaintiff in any such suit, it’s not relevant. Person one’s failure to assert his rights doesn’t have any effect on Person two’s ability to assert his. ---
**Author:** ![SmackFu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/53a042/32.png) [@SmackFu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmackFu)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2004, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-moore-website-posts-link-to-download-fahrenheit-911/253141/12 "2004-07-02T02:13:47Z")
Such an interesting tactic: daring him to be a hypocrite. I don’t know how Moore will slip out of their crafty trap. ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2004, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-moore-website-posts-link-to-download-fahrenheit-911/253141/13 "2004-07-02T02:36:47Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > Did you mean codefendant or did you mean plaintiff? Because I’m unsure as to the cause of action you’re suggesting anyone would have against Moore. As for Moore’s presence as a plaintiff in any such suit, it’s not relevant. Person one’s failure to assert his rights doesn’t have any effect on Person two’s ability to assert his. Codefendant, though I’m certainly no lawyer. My thought goes more or less like this. Here we have a guy very publicly identifed with a movie – more like Lucas with _Star Wars_ than like Raimi with Spiderman, if you will. If I’m a downloader with a good lawyer, I’m going to use a “reasonableness” defense. Specifically, I’ll introduce the tape of Moore saying he has no objection to people filesharing “my” movie (though on reviewing the statement, he only said that once) and claim that I reasonably believe that it was, in fact, “his” movie – that his distribution contract with Lion’s Gate extended only to cinema showings of the film and that he was free to do as he pleases as regards other methods of distribution. And what he plainly pleases to do is have people share it for free over the internet, so long as the sharer does not profit. If I’m Lion’s Gate, maybe I have to sue Moore for falsely claiming ownership. Now that second part assumes that Moore does _not_ have ownership. As I said before, I have no idea. Perhaps he does and is in fact giving people free license to share it over the internet. After all, he said his primarly motivation is not money, and that he got plenty from the cinema contract. It could very well be that Lion’s Gate’s only recourse here is to stew about it and prosecute the actual filming when it occurs in theaters. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2004, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-moore-website-posts-link-to-download-fahrenheit-911/253141/14 "2004-07-02T02:48:03Z")
OK, I get where you’re coming from on this. My assumption would be that the existence of the copyright notice on every print of the film, every movie poster, etc. would serve to defeat any reasonableness defense, since AFAIK Moore doesn’t hold the copyright. I still don’t see where Lions Gate or whoever else would need to name Moore as a codefendant though. They would probably need to name him separately for allegedly breaching his fiduciary duty, which is a different cause of action than what would arise from an illegal download. ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2004, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-moore-website-posts-link-to-download-fahrenheit-911/253141/15 "2004-07-02T02:59:25Z")
Excellent point on the second part – I think you’re probably right. As to the first, the poster doesn’t have a copyright notice ([cite](http://www.fahrenheit911.com/_images/about/poster/poster-small.pdf). But yeah, there’s probably a copyright notice somewhere in the film itself now that I think about it (I was thinking of those huge copyright things on DVDs, which obviously don’t exist yet in the case of this film). So yeah, depending on what that notice says, let loose the lawyers! ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2004, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-moore-website-posts-link-to-download-fahrenheit-911/253141/16 "2004-07-02T03:02:46Z")
Well, shit. Now I’ve gone and unbalanced the universe by having an uneven number of parentheses in it. ) All better. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2004, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-moore-website-posts-link-to-download-fahrenheit-911/253141/17 "2004-07-02T03:39:48Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#): > > Riiiiight. He has the most noble of motives. Sure he does. Hell, I’ll bet he’d do it for free, which is of course why he had it released to theaters rather than the Internet. :rolleyes: In Moore’s case he probably would release the movie for free if it would get GWB out of office. Whatever you think of him, I don’t see how you can doubt the sincerity of his political activism. Oh…and FWIW, Moors is donating part of his profits to the families of soldiers killed in Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![cmason32](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@cmason32](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmason32)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2004, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-moore-website-posts-link-to-download-fahrenheit-911/253141/18 "2004-07-02T04:02:14Z")
> [@SmackFu](#): > > Such an interesting tactic: daring him to be a hypocrite. I don’t know how Moore will slip out of their crafty trap. I don’t see it being that crafty. He can be quiet and let his distributor do the suing. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2004, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-moore-website-posts-link-to-download-fahrenheit-911/253141/19 "2004-07-02T05:18:16Z")
> [@manhattan](#): > > Codefendant, though I’m certainly no lawyer. My thought goes more or less like this. Here we have a guy very publicly identifed with a movie – more like Lucas with _Star Wars_ than like Raimi with Spiderman, if you will. If I’m a downloader with a good lawyer, I’m going to use a “reasonableness” defense. Specifically, I’ll introduce the tape of Moore saying he has no objection to people filesharing “my” movie (though on reviewing the statement, he only said that once) and claim that I reasonably believe that it was, in fact, “his” movie – that his distribution contract with Lion’s Gate extended only to cinema showings of the film and that he was free to do as he pleases as regards other methods of distribution. And what he plainly pleases to do is have people share it for free over the internet, so long as the sharer does not profit. > > If I’m Lion’s Gate, maybe I have to sue Moore for falsely claiming ownership. > > Now that second part assumes that Moore does _not_ have ownership. As I said before, I have no idea. Perhaps he does and is in fact giving people free license to share it over the internet. After all, he said his primarly motivation is not money, and that he got plenty from the cinema contract. It could very well be that Lion’s Gate’s only recourse here is to stew about it and prosecute the actual filming when it occurs in theaters. I think you’re missing the point here. Lion’s Gate won’t be suing the downloaders; they’ll be suing whoever is making the file available. The copy of the film that is being made available would have been obtained illegally, and your “reasonableness defense” would only apply if Moore had actually provided the film to the site which is hosting it. ---
**Author:** ![Already\_in\_Use](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a9adbd/32.png) [@Already\_in\_Use](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Already_in_Use)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2004, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-moore-website-posts-link-to-download-fahrenheit-911/253141/20 "2004-07-02T06:39:45Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#): > > Riiiiight. He has the most noble of motives. Sure he does. Hell, I’ll bet he’d do it for free, which is of course why he had it released to theaters rather than the Internet. :rolleyes: Eh, nobody’s saying he’s not trying to make money as well, but his primary goal is obviously ousting Bush from office. Surely you can disagree with Moore and concede that point, just like most of us can disagree strongly with Messrs. Marx, Hitler, and Mao, while acknowledging that their primary motives for publishing their respective manifestos were not financial in nature. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-moore-website-posts-link-to-download-fahrenheit-911/253141.md?page=2)