# Anti-Semitism and Mel Gibson's New Movie **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 31, 2004, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-semitism-and-mel-gibsons-new-movie/226915 "2004-01-31T14:12:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2004, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-semitism-and-mel-gibsons-new-movie/226915/81 "2004-02-03T22:41:05Z")
I have to agree that the chances that Gibson’s movie will enflame any extra anti-semitism among Arab Muslims is ridiculous. A message that the “Jews killed Jesus” would contradict the Koran. Muslims don’t even believe that Jesus died on the cross. They definitely don’t believe he was God. ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2004, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-semitism-and-mel-gibsons-new-movie/226915/82 "2004-02-03T23:04:47Z")
> [@kelly5078](#): > > If this, or any other movie, whatever its content, seriously threatens the Jews, I’ll eat my kippah. And convert back to Christianity. And look for Osama Productions to come out with the sequel. According to DSeid and a few others you are going to loose this battle. Do you want some good kosher/halal recipies for just in case… and a completely free copy of Al Qur’an, in any language you prefer…For just in case… ?.. As for the Osama Productions: They are actually based in my personal caves and we are indeed already working on the sequel under the direction of my female bat. Yes, she wears black completely covering her but nevertheless the Christian actor playing Jesus is stalking her, completely out of his mind because of his -unexpected - love. You can imagine that it is not going to be easy to get this film released in the USA. Salaam. A ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2004, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-semitism-and-mel-gibsons-new-movie/226915/83 "2004-02-03T23:55:41Z")
> [@Aldebaran](#): > > _Always look at the bright side of live_. Do you realize you are quoting, if I’m not mistaken, from Monty Python’s _The Life of Brian?_ That would be either quite ironic or quite apt, depending on how you look at it. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2004, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-semitism-and-mel-gibsons-new-movie/226915/84 "2004-02-04T01:06:19Z")
For another example of “delicious irony” in **Aldebaran’s** postings - this is the guy who has repeatedly castigated Americans for ignoring and insulting Islamic law and customs. Apparently it is OK, though for **Aldebaran** to mock a central figure in Christian theology: > [@Aldebaran](#): > > As for the Osama Productions: They are actually based in my personal caves and we are indeed already working on the sequel under the direction of my female bat. Yes, she wears black completely covering her but nevertheless the Christian actor playing Jesus is stalking her, completely out of his mind because of his -unexpected - love. You can imagine that it is not going to be easy to get this film released in the USA. Delicious irony or nauseating hypocrisy? ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2004, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-semitism-and-mel-gibsons-new-movie/226915/85 "2004-02-04T01:26:33Z")
> [@](#): > > A message that the “Jews killed Jesus” would contradict the Koran. Muslims don’t even believe that Jesus died on the cross. They definitely don’t believe he was God. All of which is utterly irrelevant. You don’t have to believe the story to think that it, and the controversy around it, symbolizes something sinister. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2004, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-semitism-and-mel-gibsons-new-movie/226915/86 "2004-02-04T05:57:02Z")
Poor, Alde. No one ever understands him. Before you question my reading comprehension too deeply, let us check yours. You are claiming thay I have said that this movie would seriously threaten Jews. And that I misrepresent what you (and the others screaming about Jewish whining) have stated. Let us review the thread. Not one poster has claimed that this movie is antisemitic. Several expressed concern that it might turn out to be, and expressed the general concern about the revival of the Christ-killer motiff. A sampling: Myself, I doubt there will be anything more offensive in the film than in the Gospels themselves. –Loopy Whyn’t we we till the film comes out and y’all have seen it? –Eve Personally, I’m looking forward to seeing this film, and will reserve judgement one way or the other until after I get to see it. –John Mace it’s probably hard for some Jewish people not to consider the way Jews have been historically persecuted for killing Jesus. IF Gibson is intentionally contributing to that, it’s reprehensible. But I can’t say I know that’s what he’s doing. –Marley I don’t really see much reason for anyone to get worked up over Gibson’s film, anymore than a remake of Jesus Christ Superstar. –Apos Vis a vis this movie … I don’t know enough about it to have an opinion. But in general a return to “perfidious Jews” as a promoted image is, well, unhelpful and concerning, especially in a time when violent acts against Jews have increased in many parts of the world. Jews have been called “Christ-killers” as they have been murdered for many hundreds of years while Christ as a historical figure was killed by Romans as Rome killed many that they felt were political threats. –DSeid (Hey! That’s me!) Meanwhile a sampling of those ranting about Jews screaming antisemitism: The way jews cry anti semitism for just about anything -Rash I long since lost any understanding of what “anti-Semitism” mean; seems to go from being against an Ariel Sharon policy to throwing people in ovens, and any cause it suits in between. –London As I have since long abandoned the habit to try to explain to those “anti-semitism” screamers that the way they constantly - and with no end in sight -exploit the suffering of the Holocaust victims (and hereby constantly and without any sign of shame “forgetting” all the non-jewish victims) is working on the nerves of those who see right through this cheap PR tactic. –Alde the whole “anti semitism” screaming by every single little thing that could be brought in relation to “Jew” is sickening upto making me and a lot of others vomit. -Alde Nope. I never screamed that this movie was antisemitic or that it would seriously threaten Jews. I explained why some of us are concerned about resurgence of the Christ-killer motiff, in general. And yup, the statement that you screamers came to “rant off about how Jews scream antisemitism about any criticism of Israel and Jews abuse the Holocaust for cheap PR. Apparently your point is that Jews have no business being concerned about antisemitism.” is well supported by a careful read. My question remains: What exactly would cross the line in your minds? (I know the rant of that question is too much to bear.) Why exactly should Jews ignore the past? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2004, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-semitism-and-mel-gibsons-new-movie/226915/87 "2004-02-04T06:42:44Z")
[This just in: Gibson has deleted a controversial scene from the movie.](http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/04/movies/04PASS.html) The scene removed is one that’s been discussed here- Matthew 27:25: > [@](#): > > A scene in the film, in which the Jewish high priest Caiaphas calls down a kind of curse on the Jewish people by declaring of the Crucifixion, “His blood be on us and on our children,” will not be in the movie’s final version, said the Gibson associate, who spoke on condition of anonymity. Also- > [@](#): > > In this version, the Roman leader Pontius Pilate is depicted as being reluctant to harm Jesus, who Pilate’s wife warns is holy. Largely to mollify a restive Jewish mob outside his window, Pilate agrees to a severe lashing and scourging of Jesus, but the crowd and the high priest demand more. > > Pilate says in Latin: “Ecce homo” — “Behold the man” — displaying the broken and bleeding Jesus to the crowd. But the high priest insists, in Aramaic, “Crucify him.” Pilate responds, “Isn’t this enough?” The mob roars, “No,” and only then does the Roman leader agree to the Crucifixion. In the piece, Mel is asked directly if he thinks the Holocaust happened. Make what you will of his answer. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2004, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-semitism-and-mel-gibsons-new-movie/226915/88 "2004-02-04T13:58:23Z")
Mel’s answer when asked to go on record as to whether the Holocaust happened: "Mr. Gibson responded: _“I have friends and parents of friends who have numbers on their arms. The guy who taught me Spanish was a Holocaust survivor. He worked in a concentration camp in France. Yes of course. Atrocities happened. War is horrible. The Second World War killed tens of millions of people. Some of them were Jews in concentration camps. Many people lost their lives. In the Ukraine several million starved to death between 1932 and 1933. During the last century 20 million people died in the Soviet Union.”_ Mr. Foxman also protested Mr. Gibson’s remark on the Holocaust. “At the very least it was ignorant, at the very most its insensitive. And you know what? He doesn’t get that either. He doesn’t begin to understand the difference between dying in a famine and people being cremated solely for what they are.” ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2004, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-semitism-and-mel-gibsons-new-movie/226915/89 "2004-02-04T15:31:34Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Mr. Foxman also protested Mr. Gibson’s remark on the Holocaust. “At the very least it was ignorant, at the very most its insensitive. And you know what? He doesn’t get that either. He doesn’t begin to understand the difference between dying in a famine and people being cremated solely for what they are.” Quite a number of other people who died in WWII, or in the Stalinist USSR, or in a number of other atrocities of the same general time period were tortured, quite intentionally made into refugees, or murdered solely for being what they were. What about the Roma, the gays, the 25-50% of Chechens and three other North Caucasian ethnic groups, the Balts who were internally deported within the USSR, or the Jews who were murdered at hands other than Nazi ones? Or people who were murdered by the thousands for their political opinions or religion? Does it make Mel Gibson an anti-Semite to point out those historical facts? I certainly hope nobody thinks so. ---
**Author:** ![gum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2004, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-semitism-and-mel-gibsons-new-movie/226915/90 "2004-02-04T15:59:59Z")
It makes Mel Gibson a stupid, insensitive, prick. If he knows some historical facts, [which I doubt], he should know a movie like this comes at a very bad time. ---
**Author:** ![More\_Cowbell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@More\_Cowbell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/More_Cowbell)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2004, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-semitism-and-mel-gibsons-new-movie/226915/91 "2004-02-04T16:11:28Z")
This > [@Aldebaran](#): > > Well, probably that can be a problem in the USA where religious nutcases seem to pop up and flourish like mushrooms. plus this > [@Aldebaran](#): > > Yet with this particular movie there are in my opinion a few minor problems to get it released onto the MENA public. > > 1. Jesus = God is blasphemy of the first degree. > 2. A film about the Christian view on the life of jesus = proselytizing Christianity = advertizing blasphemy. > 3. In several - if not all, I’m not quite sure about this - of our dear MENA nations proselytizing is excluded from things foreigners are allowed do. (We don’t speak even about some of the really original punishments for blasphemy). > 4. In some of our dear MENA nations they do everything to convince people that even music,let be a “Western made” movie, is distracting a good Muslim from his religion. Which at all costs must be avoided. I see that attitude as an additional little problem for any movie to dwell freely towards the audience, let be a movie about “Jesus = God”. > 5. In addition: Picturing prophets is haram because of the idea that when you picture a prophet, you can easily create a tendency to start worshipping that picture representing a prophet. (I don’t touch here even the still widely spread surperstitions linked to “picturing humans” within certain segments of the population) > 6. Little and great miracles are possible, so let’s take a case where some cinema announces this movie. I picture some unease/disturbance in the surrounding neighbourhood, yet I see at the same time also a very great indifference by the observing Muslim population towards paying money to go see a display of a few hours of what is considered to be pure blasphemy. > 7. In any case: Those who don’t see such a movie as a display of a few hours advertizing blasphemy, fall already outside your projection of “every Muslim is a Jew hater” even before they enter a theatre to see “the jews pictured as killing Jesus/God”. = :rolleyes: [nitpick] > [@Aldebaran](#): > > All of that because some US’er named Mel Gibson (of which countless people also never heard off) made a film Although born in NY, his family moved to Austrailia when he was a child. I do believe he conisders him self Austalian, or in Aldespeak, a Austalia’er. In fact when the movie Mad Max was released in the US, his voice was dubbed because the studio was afraid people wouldn’t understand his accent. [/nitpik] Did no one see _Braveheart_ or _The Patriot_? Do you think historical facts are that much of a concern to Mel when making a movie? ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2004, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-semitism-and-mel-gibsons-new-movie/226915/92 "2004-02-04T16:14:56Z")
I think Gibson’s point (which is in complete accordance with my point) is that persecution is equally awful no matter who the victims are. If pointing that out makes him an anti-Semite, then I guess I’m an anti-Semite, too. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2004, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-semitism-and-mel-gibsons-new-movie/226915/93 "2004-02-04T16:33:52Z")
> [@Eva Luna](#): > > I think Gibson’s point (which is in complete accordance with my point) is that persecution is equally awful no matter who the victims are. If pointing that out makes him an anti-Semite, then I guess I’m an anti-Semite, too. What I see here is a man who, when asked a direct yes/no question, gave an answer that was something other than yes or no (and was considerably longer than one word). Now, that’s OK if you’re, say, running for president, but for a normal human being (which is, when you get down to it, is what Mel is) it usually means that you’re afraid of what will happen if you tell the truth. Why couldn’t he have said: “Yes. Of course”? Why did he waffle? When asked about the Jewish Holocaust, why bring up other atrocities? Are people not allowed to note just one evil at a time? ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2004, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-semitism-and-mel-gibsons-new-movie/226915/94 "2004-02-04T16:46:25Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > What I see here is a man who, when asked a direct yes/no question, gave an answer that was something other than yes or no (and was considerably longer than one word). Now, that’s OK if you’re, say, running for president, but for a normal human being (which is, when you get down to it, is what Mel is) it usually means that you’re afraid of what will happen if you tell the truth. > > Why couldn’t he have said: “Yes. Of course”? Why did he waffle? When asked about the Jewish Holocaust, why bring up other atrocities? Are people not allowed to note just one evil at a time? Maybe he knew (or had been briefed by the studio, whichever) how his short answer would be perceived in some quarters, and so he tried to pre-empt criticism. If that’s the case, then it certainly didn’t work very well. I honestly don’t see how anything he said could reasonably be perceived as anti-Semitic, or Holocaust denying, or whatever. And let’s face it, he’s not running for President, but he’s certainly under a great deal more scrutiny than a normal human being. To me, he told more than the truth: he told the whole truth. ---
**Author:** ![Tinker\_Grey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tinker_grey/32/8136_2.png) [@Tinker\_Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tinker_Grey)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2004, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-semitism-and-mel-gibsons-new-movie/226915/95 "2004-02-04T16:58:47Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > What I see here is a man who, when asked a direct yes/no question, gave an answer that was something other than yes or no (and was considerably longer than one word). Now, that’s OK if you’re, say, running for president, but for a normal human being (which is, when you get down to it, is what Mel is) _it usually means that you’re afraid of what will happen if you tell the truth._ > > {Emphasis Added} Oddly enough, I think that applies to folks running for president as well. But, I do think that Mel missed an easy opportunity to placate his critics. Tinker ---
**Author:** ![Tinker\_Grey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tinker_grey/32/8136_2.png) [@Tinker\_Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tinker_Grey)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2004, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-semitism-and-mel-gibsons-new-movie/226915/96 "2004-02-04T17:00:34Z")
ah … crap … the emphasis added should have been on > [@](#): > > it usually means that you’re afraid of what will happen if you tell the truth. TG ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2004, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-semitism-and-mel-gibsons-new-movie/226915/97 "2004-02-04T18:19:26Z")
> [@Eva Luna](#): > > Do you realize you are quoting, if I’m not mistaken, from Monty Python’s _The Life of Brian?_ That would be either quite ironic or quite apt, depending on how you look at it. Most of the time I do realize what I write/say, so… yes, of course 🙂 When it comes to English languaged film productions/serials: My favourite actor = John Cleese Favourite film = Life of Brian. Which I saw - if I recall well - for the first time when I was 16 and which never left me since. You could say it is a steadfast companion. As for my quote and how it was meant: Since there are quite a few people around here who tend to devellop strange habits in interpreting/reading/rewriting my posts, I guess it is also in this case a completely free game for the readers to decide how they want to see it. Salaam. A ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2004, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-semitism-and-mel-gibsons-new-movie/226915/98 "2004-02-04T18:36:06Z")
> [@Aldebaran](#): > > Most of the time I do realize what I write/say, so… yes, of course 🙂 Well, given that you’d never heard of the Scorcese film, which was more recent and (at least here) much more controversial, I had no way of knowing. (And it’s properly written "bright side of _life,_ for the record.) ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2004, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-semitism-and-mel-gibsons-new-movie/226915/99 "2004-02-04T18:44:56Z")
> [@More Cowbell](#): > > Did no one see _Braveheart_ or _The Patriot_? I saw “Braveheart” because I have it, yet I’m not interested in watching it again since I don’t find it worth any of my time again. Blood streaming off the screen covering all the action; reaching such an abundance of red paint that must picture blood that you find yourself almost wading through it by the time the movie finally comes to an end. One session of such a steady fake bloodstream is quite enough for me to be willing to take without getting extremely bored. I didn’t see the other one because I don’t have it, obviously. I have no idea if “any one” other then myself - and those who happen to see movies I have because I have them - is familiar with it. Have no idea about the other one either. Maybe you could go on a world tour to undertake an academic research on “who knows Mel Gibson and the films he plays in”? > [@](#): > > Do you think historical facts are that much of a concern to Mel when making a movie? The meaning of this question escapes me because I can’t see any relation between it and my posts, or what you quoted from them. Salaam. A ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2004, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-semitism-and-mel-gibsons-new-movie/226915/100 "2004-02-04T18:50:14Z")
> [@Eva Luna](#): > > (And it’s properly written "bright side of _life,_ for the record.) Yes, I know. Those are the little things I often type wrong especially in a short sentence. Salaam. A [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-semitism-and-mel-gibsons-new-movie/226915.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-semitism-and-mel-gibsons-new-movie/226915.md?page=6)