Would you please all kindly do me a favor, so that this thread is not further diverted, because the topic is interesting? When using a term as loaded as “anti-Semitism,” please define how you are using it, so the rest of us have some basis on which to evaluate your assertions? I think at least half the sniping here so far is a result of linguistic inclarity.
Thank you very much in advance.
Eva Luna, Jewish Agnostic and Linguistic Pedant Extraordinaire
Calling yourself a “son of God” is not a capital crime in Judaism. It will get you branded as a heretic, but not killed. Setting yourself up to be worshipped, OTOH, will do it.
In any event, neither of the above falls under the crime of blasphemy, which involves one single statement (which I will not divulge), of which there is no evidence that Jesus ever uttered.
Zev Steinhardt
The irony is breathtaking.
You’re the one who decided to hijack the thread with your standard “Criticize Israel and they’ll call you an anti-Semite” claptrap.
I repeat what I said before:* "I know it’s a pet whine of yours that one can’t criticize Israel without being called an anti-Semite. Except that your claim is nonsense.
You’re invited to provide an example (for instance, try citing any poster on this board) of someone having equated criticism of Ariel Sharon (or Israel) with anti-Semitism. And if you can’t do so, quit whining."*
No answer? Not surprising.
As for having respect for the board, anyone’s who’s been around awhile remembers your meltdown after you plagiarized a skinhead/Nazi website in an attempt to prove that Jews control the media. (!)
One would have thought you had learned something during your (apparently) self-imposed exile from the board following that disaster. But it seems the old obsessions are difficult to control.
You’ll be called on this nonsense whenever you repeat it.
As for your attempts at personal insult, you know quite well that they are inappropriate in GD, and simply reveal your inability to support your arguments.
If you want a slanging match, go start a Pit thread to wail about how badly you’ve been treated.
I’ll arrange to have a refutation of that on tonight’s Nightline… 
Zev Steinhardt
London_calling
[Moderator Hat ON]
Cool it, London. That is not appropriate for this forum.
[Moderator Hat OFF]
Jackmannii - Plain fact; anyone now has to define what they mean by ‘anti-Semite’ because it means a whole bunch of things to a whole bunch of people. Not a complicated point, as demonstrated by reference to this complaint made by Ariel Sharon about a cartoon daring to criticise . . . his policies.
That’s my point; you can’t have a debate unless the goalposts are identified - and you want, as usual, to hijack the thread and turn it into a personal attack. You’re being a jerk, just like your comrade in arms december
And I feel obliged to tell you that this slo-mo stalking thing is getting spooky and old – in fact it was old, when ? Three years ago, maybe ?
Three fucking years of this shit. Please Go The Fuck Away Weird Person.
So it comes to this; Last and only warning: Stop with the stalking or you give me no choice other than to ask for an official ruling on your behaviour.
I’m sorry Gaudere but I am not going to be intimidated in this thread by this poster. My point is legitimate and his behaviour is that of a trolling jerk.
Good night.
[Moderator Hat ON]
You may think whatever you like but call him a troll or a jerk again in this forum and you are in severe danger of losing your posting priv.
[Moderator Hat OFF]
If this, or any other movie, whatever its content, seriously threatens the Jews, I’ll eat my kippah. And convert back to Christianity. And look for Osama Productions to come out with the sequel.
Just out of curiosity, was Martin Scorcese’s The Last Temptation of Christ released in MENA, and if so, where and what was the public and/or government reaction to it? There were huge objections to it in the U.S. on the part of the Catholic Church, among others, for what they saw as a “blasphemous” portrayal of Jesus. The stated objection was because of a dream sequence in which Jesus is married to Mary Magdalene and lives the life of a more or less normal man.
I was unaware that Ariel Sharon had a policy of biting the heads off Palestinian babies (unless that would explain his considerable girth).
He was objecting to a venomous piece of imagery of debatable motivation, not some remotely coherent critique of his or Israel’s policies.
Your posts are generally of insufficient interest to warrant any response. When you step over the line on the subject of your peculiar obsession, you’ll be called on it.
End of story. Foam and lather as you will, but do it somewhere else.
To get back to Birth of a Nation for a moment: there’s an eerie bit of deja vu when you consider what President Wilson purportedly had to say about the movie - "“And my only regret is that it is all so terribly true.”— and what the Pope did or didn’t say about Mel Gibson’s epic - “It is as it was”.
Both apparently had second thoughts about the wisdom of their public endorsements.
And both seem to be descriptively relating what Christians believe, not citing the any historical documents or texts where they learned about the events.
But… notably absent from most of these plays: any explicit reference to Jews qua Jews. Some faceless rabble choosing Barabas, taunting Jesus, and some spear poking Romans, and we’re out. And, these plays often happen in Christian places that have long since publically repudiated anti-semitism of past passion plays. This is a movie format that can travel anywhere, even to places where there is no such history. That’s not to say that it’s bad, just that it, as described, is dangerous.
I have no pretense about anyone beliefs changing, nor did I say that Muslims hate Jews. What I pointed out was that this film and the objections of Jewish leaders to it, has the potential to be spun as Jews trying to hush up another one of their oppressive crimes. You yourself read a whole lot into the fact that prominent Jewish leaders are raising questions about the films portrayal of the “bad guy” non-Christianizing Jews. That’s not to say that your concerns aren’t legitimate: I DO think that anti-semitism is too lightly thrown around these days. It’s just to say that if you are going to read something sinister into it, what do you think those that pervert Islam so as to incite violence are going to do?
Your repsponse to me is silly because the movie’s Christian message doesn’t have to be believed, nor the movie even seen for that to confirm the suspicions of many anti-semites in the Middle East, and fit snugly into anti-semetic pronouncements and convictions.
Why would an anti-semitic Christian be upset at Jews for killing Christ? Wasn’t his crucifixion a necessary fulfillment of a prophecy? Considering that the Christ ressurection is the single most important aspect of the New Testament, you’d think people would be grateful that his killing occured.
Taking a deep calming breath and proceeding …
London, Alde, and Rashik: you take a … um, an interesting position here.
You enter a thread that was not discussing Israel or the Holocaust, but was instead discussing the basis for Jewish concerns that a movie which allegedly revives the Jews as “Christ-killer” motiff may fuel antisemitism, and rant off about how Jews scream antisemitism about any criticism of Israel and Jews abuse the Holocaust for cheap PR. Apparently your point is that Jews have no business being concerned about antisemitism. No right to be worried. No real cause for concern. Those exiles, pogroms, ghettos, massacres, Inquistions and so on and on and on over the last many many centuries … yes, HaShoah in living memory with the deaths of a sizable portion of my own extended family, my Dad having to pass for not Jewish to work in certain areas, my having been called a kike in my own college experience … remembering this repetitious history and being aware that history doesn’t usually just stop cold … any concern, all concern about antisemitism is just a cheap PR scam and you see right through it. Jews remembering that past as a warning about a potential future is an abuse of that history that makes you vomit. Jews have nothing to fear. Whiners. Coniving whiners.
What exactly would cross the line in your minds? Bringing back out the old propaganda in places of prominence? (Christ-killer was a classic). Putting forth the old stereotypes? Violent acts against Jews just because they are Jews and therefore the enemy? From past threads it seems like none of these qualifies. Hell, maybe the history of antisemitism was all a hoax by the Jews anyway, a PR scam, and you see through that too.
You’ll excuse me if I don’t look to you to tell me when I should be concerned and how I should respond.
On the lighter note, the irony of Alde’s contributions is delicious. Nothing like someone explaining how a movie with content considered heretical to Islam because it portrays Christ as God would never be permitted to be viewed within the Islamic ME, all the while complaining about Jews trying to influence the content of movies with perceived hateful content by lobbying. Sweet.
[aside]
A recent “reconstruction” of what Jesus, a fairly typical Nazarene of two thousand years ago, would’ve likely looked like: http://popularmechanics.com/science/research/2002/12/real_face_jesus/print.phtml That ain’t no Tab Hunter. It ain’t even Mel Gibson.
[/aside]
I never heard of that movie, looked it up on the internet and apparently it was produced in 1988. Which is already some time ago.
Seen title and story I doubt that there was much interest to release it somewhere in the MENA region (Israel excepted when talking about MENA in a context like this one). Could always be that some countries/ cities released it, but honestly: I wouldn’t know.
Salaam. A
I wouldn’t know, never attended one of these passion plays.
(I do know the text of the Passions of Bach in which very dramatically is repeated by the choir representing the Jews that Barabbas should be set free and that Jesus should be crucified.)
What on earth is so different between such plays and a silly movie telling the same story. Christians all over the globe seem to have noticed since a considerable amount of time that linking the trial of Christ with anti Semitism is “not done”.
What “dangerous” effect can such a movie have “even in places where there is no such history” = where non-Christians eventually go to see a movie about a story they have no emotional/religious/historical connection with at all.
How on earth can such a filmed story make such viewers - who only want to see a film = a story and nothing else - all of a sudden becoming “Jew haters” when they have no reason at all to even think about making any connection between “Jesus killed”–> Bad Jews because --> Jews want Jesus get killed” = Bad Jews killed the Son of God.
I’m sorry, but this is a stretch that goes in my opinion beyond imagination.
Sorry… but… : What?
We are talking here about a story that happened some 2000 years ago and that only is real for those who believe it happened like it is told.
We don’t talk here about a recent event that on top of it is reality for everyone without exception because it is believed to be true by everyone without exception.
Read my post again please.
Islam and “Jews Killing Christ” are in opposition = there can be no link between Islam and “Jews wanting the Christian version of Jesus dead” = “Jews voting for the death of the Son of God”.
I’m sorry, but before you tell me that my response is “silly”, you better do some effort to inform yourself a bit more about Islam.
I really want to see the first message of OBL coming, referring to a stupid movie to tell people that he watched this heresy (don’t forget that) filmed by Mel Gibson and believes it tells the truth about Jews killing Jesus The Son of God . That would really be funny.
But you go even further… You actually claim that Muslims who even didn’t see the movie and don’t even know of its existence are going to be brought to believe what other ** Muslims ** tell them about a movie that pictures the Jews being responsible for the death of Jesus as the Son of God.
All of that because some US’er named Mel Gibson (of which countless people also never heard off) made a film about that and thus
OK. Have it your way. Please let me know when and where it happens so that I can go and witness it myself. Thank you.
Salaam. A
(leaving the rest of the rant for what it is)
Dseid, apparently you are good at
You tell me about how a silly movie - that only pictures what is already known by everyone a bit informed about Christianity and that on top of it isn’t even released - can raise any “concern” other then :
Well… No.
Please don’t hesitate to try to rewrite my posts once again. I suppose that the more you practice reading them, the less you shall be tempted to rewrite them creating thereby your own fictional story that has nothing to do with my originals.
The discovery of a skilled copyist is for every historian the equivalent of winning the lottery for a fortune hunter.
Be aware of the unexpected opportunity this gives you to make me happy.
Always look at the bright side of live.
Salaam. A