Again, what is the big deal about the specific wording of Mr. Gibson’s remark? He’s not Jewish as far as I know, and even if he were, why is he obligated only to mention one instance of persecution, even if it is the particular one under discussion?
Hell, I’m Jewish, and I’m almost 100% sure I lost extended family during the Holocaust. The state of Illinois, where I have lived most of my life, has a required Holocaust Remembrance Week observance in the public school system as part of the standard curriculum, and I’m all for it as a concept.
But anyone other than Jews who died in the Holocaust, or in other WWII-era atrocities, is mentioned only in passing. Hell, we never even learned about the Ukrainian famine, or the Armenian genocide, or the North Caucasian deportations; those millions of people, who are equally dead, and for reasons which are just as senseless and despicable, might as well never have existed. Why should “never forget” apply only to Jews? I think any public reminder of the evil and senselessness of genocide is a good thing.
I’m not one to go for the your Blues aint like my Blues competitive suffering, but to answer a straight up question about whether or not HaShoah occured with “Atrocities happened. War is horrible. The Second World War killed tens of millions of people. Some of them were Jews in concentration camps … During the last century 20 million people died in the Soviet Union.” is trying to avoid answering and trying to minimize HaShoah. I know that the Chechnen situation is a passion of yours, but it aint the same thing as a systematic intentional slaughter of millions as a peak of centuries of Jew-hating and murdering over many centuries historically aided and abetted by promulgation of the Christ-killer myth. But again, even if he is an antisemite who thinks that HaShoah was an exaggeration, I don’t really care. He’s just a celebrity. How he acts upon his beliefs is what I care about.
It raises a hijack: some do want to place HaShoah in a special place, as a one time abberation of history. I think that you and I agree that such is untrue and a mistake. What is especially scary about HaShoah is how normative it is. We all have that capacity, that capacity which has been targetted on Jews many times and on many others many times as well (including others, eg the Romani, during the Holocaust). HaShoah was remarkable only for its scale and efficiency. If we fail to recognize the fact that such evil is within us all today and in the future, then “never again” is a very empty platitude.
You may not have noticed that I was responding to another poster, not referring further to Mel Gibson.
In my case, I learned about the Ukrainian famine and the Armenian genocide either in history courses or from private reading and other sources. If I am less than completely well-informed about these or other tragedies, I have never thought to lay the blame on members of another ethnic group which commemorates its own experience with genocide.
I being a jew have to say that Mel Gibson made a movie and not a documentary. Therefor he is allowed to say what he wants. It is his first amendmant. However He should be presenting this as fact. It should be clearly said that this is his opinion and not what is all true.
Jesus (if you’ll pardon the expression), I thought I made my point clear, but apparently it wasn’t clear enough.
Mel Gibson chose to remark on genocide and other atrocities in conjunction with his remarks on the Holocaust, which happened more or less at the same time and killed a greater number of people. I posited that one reason he might have chosen to do so, and one which did not necessarily make him a Holocaust denier, was that the Holocaust is frequently emphasized in public discourse, while other equivalent or worse atrocities are (comparatively) ignored.
My remarks were a reaction to other posters’ criticism of his remarks, which is why I also mentioned other instances of genocide and other atrocities. I couldn’t have made my point (although it seems that I haven’t effectively done so in any case, at least to some of you) without mentioning other atrocities. I mentioned the case of the Chechens in particular because a) it is still going on, and b) I am more familiar with the specific details of the Chechen situation than, say, even the Armenian one. Also, the Chechens have essentially nobody to stick up for them, while the Jews, the Armenians, and to a certain extent even the Ukrainians have large and visible émigré populations in the West who are able to stick up for their interests.
This is why Jewish issues are well-represented in the Illinois public school curriculum; Illinois has a substantial Jewish population, while we have a miniscule Armenian population, and I’ve never met a Chechen here. I’m not blaming Jews for ensuring that their people have a spot in the school curriculum; I think it’s human nature that groups stick up for their own members. But that doesn’t make those other atrocities any less atrocious, and we shouldn’t ignore them in public discourse.
I think the atrocities committed against Jews will not soon be forgotten in public discourse, which is very much as it should be. But let’s not forget about all the other victims of genocide, either. That’s my point, and it might have been Mel Gibson’s. I don’t know the guy, and I really can’t judge on the basis of this one incident whether I think he’s an anti-Semite.
And I totally agree with **Dseid ** on the following:
I encourage you to start one or more threads about them.
And if, for example, you are discussing what happened to the Chechens, we can hope that no one will try to sidestrack the thread by arguing that other oppressed groups are being ignored.
And perhaps Mel Gibson will demonstrate his concern about victims of the Ukrainian famine and all of the non-Jewish WWII dead by making movies about them.
Fine. And let no one claim that you have short-changed the Armenians, the Roma, the Cambodian mass murder victims, etc. etc. by focusing so heavily on the Chechens.
I guess it’s useless to belabor this point further. You are just not going to address the illogic and/or bigotry inherent in berating an ethnic group or minimizing its suffering, supposedly with the goal of consciousness-raising towards other historically oppressed groups.
DSeid (the part of his response you ignored): "I’m not one to go for the your Blues aint like my Blues competitive suffering, but to answer a straight up question about whether or not HaShoah occured with “Atrocities happened. War is horrible. The Second World War killed tens of millions of people. Some of them were Jews in concentration camps … During the last century 20 million people died in the Soviet Union.” is trying to avoid answering and trying to minimize HaShoah.
I’m doing no such thing; for one thing, it’s my own ethnic group, so why would I want to? I just disagree that mentioning that other groups have also suffered “minimizes the suffering” of any other group. In some cases, greater numbers of the other ethnic groups he mentioned suffered, and I think it’s perfectly logical to bring it up, especially when you are being criticized for being insensitive to the concerns of Jews.
Again, I disagree that this word choice (though apparently unfortunate, because look how many people are now pissed off at him) minimizes the suffering of Holocaust victims. Especially since many of us, myself included, were never taught anything at all about many of the other victims of WWI. Hell, if you’d been sitting in my high school European history class, you essentially wouldn’t have known there was an Eastern Front. I consider it one of the great failures of my public high school education.
When I stood at Piskarevskoe Cemetery in Leningrad, where the hundreds of thousands of siege victims were buried, I was completely blown away. No less blown away than I was when I stood in front of the pit at Babi Yar, but blown away nonetheless. And I was an “A” student at what was generally an excellent public high school; what about all the people who went to mediocre schools, and who don’t read history books for fun? I think there’s a great deal of value in reminding all of us that the Jews unfortunately have no monopoly on persecution.
I said *"You are just not going to address the illogic (boldface added) and/or bigotry inherent in berating an ethnic group or minimizing its suffering, supposedly with the goal of consciousness-raising towards other historically oppressed groups.
[/QUOTE]
And truly, you have not.
Instead, we get more Interethnic Comparative Gotcha. It is insane.
I give up. Debate is not possible under such circumstances.
Instead, we get more Interethnic Comparative Gotcha. It is insane.
I give up. Debate is not possible under such circumstances.
[/QUOTE]
Likewise; I feel like I’m beating my head against a wall. I just don’t see how mentioning the suffering of one group minimizes the suffering of another. And I don’t see what’s illogical, because I honestly don’t see any berating whatsoever going on.
If you aren’t too busy beating your own head against a wall, perhaps you can explain to me what, precisely, about Mel Gibson’s words constitutes berating anyone. Because maybe your sensitivity meter is more finely tuned than mine, but I just don’t see it.
And what I tried to bring across is that unfortunately a certain group of Jewish people developped the habit of monopolizing this persecution and use the suffering of the Jewish Holocaust victims for their political goals.
No better way to intimidate the population of Western nations then screaming “anti-semitism” at every given occasion.
As I posted here before:
The mere fact that they manage to use a stupid movie to scream “anti semitism” , thereby even manage to be taken serious by a variety of people **and all of this long before that stupid movie is actually released [/b) underscores already the case I want to make.
Salaam. A
For the US’ers posting, a warning: I’m planning an invasion of the USA, possibly by tomorrow. Nobody shall be able to detect me; I come in full invisible mode and on top of that completely undercover. If you want to be fully protected, just paint a Stars and Stripes on your roof which should have the same effect as garlick and cross on a vampire. Oh, by the way: Any movies recommended?
The irony of your first statement: well, I think I see what you consider the irony to be, but well, we’ll have to agree to disagree on that one. At least I will; I doubt you’ll ever agree. I don’t think Gibson’s answer was circuitous or evasive, but then that’s another matter on which one of us will apparently have to agree to disagree with the other. I guess I’m not enough of a control freak to want to choose other people’s words.
And since you seem to think I’m thick in the head or something, please speak directly and use small words. Do you think I’m directly or indirectly accusing Jews of monopolizing their persecution? And if so, are you accusing me of having an anti-Semitic agenda? Please tell me what my agenda is; I’d love to know, since I wasn’t aware I was organized enough to have an agenda, let alone one that’s plain to people who don’t even know me.
Eva, I guess the former poster tried to say that he claims that Aldebaran has an “agenda”.
I never quite understood the confused use of that word in English.
Jackm,
To me an “agenda” is only that annoying tool that is used to make it clear that here and there you have planned appointments and other obligations.
My “agenda” is a bit spread and divided by necessity and I must confess that I’m not a good agenda-obeyer (is that a word?).