# Anti-Semitism and the accusations agains Representative Ilhan Omar. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 5, 2019, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-semitism-and-the-accusations-agains-representative-ilhan-omar/830568 "2019-03-05T12:57:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2019, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-semitism-and-the-accusations-agains-representative-ilhan-omar/830568/201 "2019-03-08T22:51:48Z")
Jumping in late, here’s my take: Rep. Omar has said two things that are allegedly anti-Semitic tropes. 1. The “all about the benjamins” remark. If it had been any other lobby she was talking about, it would have been the ever-popular and mostly true trope about _lobbyists_ buying influence. But it was AIPAC, and yeah, that does make a difference, because the anti-Semitic trope about Jews and money has been around even longer. That one worked out pretty much as it should have. She realized she needed to be careful not to say things that had a history of being anti-Semitic slurs, she apologized, and her critics by and large gave her the benefit of the doubt as far as intent. Kumbaya and all that. 1. Then there was her remark that “I want to talk about the political influence in this country that says it is okay to push for allegiance to a foreign country.” I still need this one explained to me. I am aware that there is a longstanding trope about Jews being persons of dubious allegiance. In the present day that takes the form of an accusation of divided loyalty between Israel and the country they reside in. It actually goes well back before the creation of Israel, when Jews were allegedly “rootless cosmopolitans” and the like, without loyalty to any country - like they had much choice, when pogroms forced them from one country to another, resulting eventually in my father’s ancestors finding their way to America. The part that I’m missing is the part about laws that would force Americans in general - Jew and Gentile alike - to give up a portion of their rights in submission to Israel and its supporters in the U.S. When has that been an anti-Semitic trope? It wasn’t and isn’t, AFAICT; it’s just something that’s happening IRL, right now. Maybe the use of ‘allegiance’ in place of ‘up a portion of their rights in submission’ in the above phrase is over the top, but the trope is about _Jews having dual allegiance_, not _Gentiles being forced into it_. Those are two very different things. Any help here? ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2019, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-semitism-and-the-accusations-agains-representative-ilhan-omar/830568/202 "2019-03-08T23:07:21Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Jumping in late, here’s my take: > > Rep. Omar has said two things that are allegedly anti-Semitic tropes. She’s said more than two, including this one: “Israel has hypnotized the world, may Allah awaken the people and help them see the evil doings of Israel.” > **[Ilhan Omar](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilhan_Omar)** > > Ilhan Abdullahi Omar (born October 4, 1982) is an American politician serving as the U.S. representative for Minnesota's 5th congressional district since 2019. She is a member of the Democratic Party. Before her election to Congress, Omar served in the Minnesota House of Representatives from 2017 to 2019, representing part of Minneapolis. Her congressional district includes all of Minneapolis and some of its first-ring suburbs. > Omar serves as deputy chair of the Congressional Progressive Cau... ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2019, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-semitism-and-the-accusations-agains-representative-ilhan-omar/830568/203 "2019-03-08T23:22:16Z")
I agree with her. Convince me my point of view is based on religion and not the actions of the Israeli government. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2019, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-semitism-and-the-accusations-agains-representative-ilhan-omar/830568/204 "2019-03-08T23:28:04Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > She’s said more than two, including this one: > > “Israel has hypnotized the world, may Allah awaken the people and help them see the evil doings of Israel.” > > [Ilhan Omar - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilhan_Omar) Well, now we’re up to two and a maybe in seven years. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2019, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-semitism-and-the-accusations-agains-representative-ilhan-omar/830568/205 "2019-03-08T23:41:57Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > She’s said more than two, including this one: > > “Israel has hypnotized the world, may Allah awaken the people and help them see the evil doings of Israel.” > > [Ilhan Omar - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilhan_Omar) It’s admittedly harsh criticism of Israel, but Israel has done some pretty harsh things. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2019, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-semitism-and-the-accusations-agains-representative-ilhan-omar/830568/206 "2019-03-08T23:42:57Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > I know what _you thin_k I sound like, yes - but that reflects on _you_. As does your “But the Palestinians!” deflection attempt later on. That is NOT what I said and don’t put words in my mouth. People seem to forget the fact that there are sins on BOTH sides. (Hamas IS a legit threat. Likewise, Israel needs to pull out of the West Bank) > [@](#): > > And that requires _exploration_, not declaring it to be off-limits or based on bigotry. Exactly. Which should then exclude things like “Jews hypnotise Congress” or “Those greedy Jews only care about the $$$$!” ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2019, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-semitism-and-the-accusations-agains-representative-ilhan-omar/830568/207 "2019-03-09T00:43:04Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > That is NOT what I said and don’t put words in my mouth. > … > > Exactly. Which should then exclude things like “Jews hypnotise Congress” or “Those greedy Jews only care about the $$$$!” While your request is certainly reasonable enough, your final paragraph kind of undercuts your moral authority in making it. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2019, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-semitism-and-the-accusations-agains-representative-ilhan-omar/830568/208 "2019-03-09T02:03:40Z")
> [@drivekiller](#): > > Browsing around [OpenSecrets.org](http://OpenSecrets.org) we note that $4.25 million in campaign contributions were single-issue pro-gun, $6.25 million were for environmental issues, and **nearly 15 million are pro-Israel contributions**. It’s also possible to drill down by recipients, where we see that Democrats are the big beneficiaries of pro-Israel funds. 30 percent of the so-called pro-Israel money is from J Street, which wants to change U.S. foreign policy, towards Israel, in a leftist direction. I haven’t tried to check the political slant of the other pro-Israel contributors cited by [opensecrets.org](http://opensecrets.org), but the fact they they generally donate to Democrats at a time when the ruling party of Israel is, to my distress, rather strongly associated with the Republican party in the U.S., tells me that pro-Israel, at [OpenSecrets.org](http://OpenSecrets.org), doesn’t mean pro-Israel-foreign-and-military-policy. This isn’t an attack on OpenSecrets! It would be unreasonable for them to try to categorize that long list of pro-Israel contributors because they have a range of views, right to left. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2019, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-semitism-and-the-accusations-agains-representative-ilhan-omar/830568/209 "2019-03-09T02:14:23Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Well, now we’re up to two and a maybe in seven years. What do you mean by “maybe”? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2019, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-semitism-and-the-accusations-agains-representative-ilhan-omar/830568/210 "2019-03-09T13:14:09Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > don’t put words in my mouth. Is that a fair expectation for others to have of you? :dubious: > [@](#): > > People seem to forget the fact that there are sins on BOTH sides. The conduct, and rights and interests, of the Palestinians are \*not \*the subject of this thread. Bringing that up is indeed a diversion attempt, and that doesn’t gain you any ground. > [@](#): > > Exactly. Which should then exclude things like “Jews hypnotise Congress” or “Those greedy Jews only care about the $$$$!” Please \*quote \*any poster, or politician, you see or hear doing so, \*then \*we can discuss it. Meanwhile, you’re only telling us what you \*wish \*Rep. Omar had said so you could denounce it properly, aren’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2019, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-semitism-and-the-accusations-agains-representative-ilhan-omar/830568/211 "2019-03-09T15:09:03Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > I am aware that there is a longstanding trope about Jews being persons of dubious allegiance. In the present day that takes the form of an accusation of divided loyalty between Israel and the country they reside in. > > It actually goes well back before the creation of Israel, when Jews were allegedly “rootless cosmopolitans” and the like, without loyalty to any country - like they had much choice, when pogroms forced them from one country to another, resulting eventually in my father’s ancestors finding their way to America. The “divided loyalty” (or “disloyalty”) accusation was a tool used by Charles Lindbergh to suggest (most notoriously in his Des Moines speech of 1941) that American Jews were trying to push the U.S. into war to benefit their Jewish brethren abroad. This anti-Semitic trope been used across the political spectrum. _"Bashing Jews for their supposed disloyalty to their nation is a crude maneuver that has been employed long before Israel existed. It has been a tactic of both the far-left and far-right, almost as though haters from both extremes come together on the dark side of the moon._ > **[A Straight Line From Lindbergh to 'Israel-Firster'](https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/01/a-straight-line-from-lindbergh-to-israel-firster/251810/)** > > The Atlantic covers news, politics, culture, technology, health, and more, through its articles, podcasts, videos, and flagship magazine. Even the Pentagon seems to have gotten into the act, as in [this bizarre example](http://nypost.com/2016/02/11/the-pentagons-vile-divided-loyalty-rules-for-jews/). ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2019, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-semitism-and-the-accusations-agains-representative-ilhan-omar/830568/212 "2019-03-09T15:57:40Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > What do you mean by “maybe”? Evidently in your post #202, you responded to my post #201 without taking the trouble to read it. What I mean by that is fully explained there. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2019, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-semitism-and-the-accusations-agains-representative-ilhan-omar/830568/213 "2019-03-09T16:04:36Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > The “divided loyalty” (or “disloyalty”) accusation was a tool used by Charles Lindbergh to suggest (most notoriously in his Des Moines speech of 1941) that American Jews were trying to push the U.S. into war to benefit their Jewish brethren abroad. Wow. Self-own by AIPAC, then. Because they (and white evangelicals too, but here that’s beside the point) are pushing for anti-BDS laws to benefit their Jewish brethren abroad. This is not a meme, this is not a trope. This is what _they’re actually doing_, in perfect parallelism to what Lindbergh (who unquestionably was an anti-Semite) accused them of back in 1941. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2019, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-semitism-and-the-accusations-agains-representative-ilhan-omar/830568/214 "2019-03-09T18:22:58Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > This is what _they’re actually doing_, in perfect parallelism to what Lindbergh (who unquestionably was an anti-Semite) accused them of back in 1941. First noting that I do not support anti-BDS laws, in what mental universe do you see them as an attempt to draw the U.S. into war to benefit foreigners (which is what Lindbergh was making accusations about)? Also, using your criteria one could easily describe those _promoting_ BDS policies as exhibiting a “dual (or divided) loyalty” towards and for the benefit of a foreign entity (which in this case is largely hostile towards America). However, supporting or opposing BDS cannot be rationally described as demonstrating questionable loyalty. Lots of people have views on foreign policy regarding a variety of nations (policies which can be debated as helping or harming American interests) without getting slammed as disloyal. An exclusive (or near-exclusive) focus on Israel in this regard has a bad odor. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2019, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-semitism-and-the-accusations-agains-representative-ilhan-omar/830568/215 "2019-03-09T19:40:35Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > This would play terribly in Russia. I’ll keep that in mind when russians can vote in the US elections. > [@](#): > > I don’t agree with Russian expansion, but I’m not anti-Russia. I am anti-russian expansion, anti-russian aggression, I am for anti-russian cyber security, and anti-russian election protection. I am still not against the people of russia, I am only against the actual actions that the Russian govt is taking. > [@](#): > > I don’t agree with the Chinese government locking up many hundreds of thousands of Muslims in re-education camps, but not I’m not anti-China. I’m pro-China. Not sure how that follows. You say that you are against what the govt is doing, then you say that you are not against what the govt is doing, then you say you are for what the govt is doing. > [@](#): > > If people in these countries think that we are against the country, rather than against various policies, that is going to help cement in excessive nationalism. I’m not saying it’s the main factor that causes countries to have a bellicose foreign policy, or even the second most important factor, but it does push things in that direction. If people in any country choose to take a stance that being against the actions of their govt is the same as being against the people of that country, then there is little we can do about that. People don’t take criticism well, and often try to change that criticism into a flaw on the part of the critic, and feign outrage at their “misunderstanding” as to what the criticism is actually about. It is simply a way of preventing uncomfortable criticism. > [@Guinastasia](#): > > To point out WHY it’s such a big deal. The poster said he never heard of a link between “Somalia” and “hypnosis” and there probably isn’t. But there IS a long one between “Jews” and “hypnosis”. I hadn’t actually even heard of that until this incident. If you had said “Jewish hypnosis” a week ago, I would have thought that it was a poorly named stage act. > [@](#): > > In this context, yes, it did. I can see how you can use this context to show that her words were poorly chosen, but I still don’t see you can show that it was meant that way. Greed is greed, and the fact that historically jews have been accused of being greedy should not mean that you cannot accuse anyone of being greedy because it is in the context of Israel relations. > [@](#): > > I should’ve been more clear. Plenty of people seem to be against Israel’s right to even EXIST, and then say, “Well, I’m not anti-JEWISH, just anti-ZIONIST!” Traditionally, that’s been used by antisemites. Once again, context matters. Seem to be? I’m not anti-JEWISH or anti-ZIONIST, but I am against some of the actions that they have taken in regard to palestine, and I am also against legislators representing anyone because of the money of their lobbying organization, rather than the interests of their constituents. How would you express that, in this context, without running afoul of anything that could possibly be linked to some historical stereotype and therefore be accused of being anti-semitic? > [@](#): > > Surely if you disagreed with Russia, or China, or Canada, you wouldn’t say, “well, they shouldn’t have the right to exist!” No, but who has said that? Israel doesn’t have a right to the West Bank or Gaza Strip is not the same as Israel doesn’t have a right to exist. Israel not having the right to use collective punishment, and use indiscriminate bombing of palestinian civilians in return for acts of terror against their citizens is not saying that Israel doesn’t have a right to defend itself. Criticism of Israel is not being an anti-Zionist or anti-semitic. I criticize the US govt all the time, I think that our govt and agents of our government occasionally do some pretty terrible things, and would really like them to stop doing so. That doesn’t mean that I hate America or the American people. That doesn’t mean that I don’t think that the US has a right to exist. > [@](#): > > A lot of people feel that way about Israel. ☹ I’m sure there are a lot of people that feel that way, but are any of them the ones that are in this thread or are subjects thereof? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2019, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-semitism-and-the-accusations-agains-representative-ilhan-omar/830568/216 "2019-03-09T19:46:55Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > You’re right! What LAZombie should have said is that “These senators want to” _enable states to punish individuals and businesses which participate in_ “boycotts against Israel.” How does that even work? Do I have to turn in receipts from pro-Israel business to prove that I am frequenting them enough? What is the punishment if I don’t meet my quota? > [@D\_Anconia](#): > > She’s said more than two, including this one: > > “Israel has hypnotized the world, may Allah awaken the people and help them see the evil doings of Israel.” > > [Ilhan Omar - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilhan_Omar) And when was that? Was that as a representative? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2019, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-semitism-and-the-accusations-agains-representative-ilhan-omar/830568/217 "2019-03-09T19:48:20Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Is that a fair expectation for others to have of you? :dubious: > > The conduct, and rights and interests, of the Palestinians are \*not \*the subject of this thread. Bringing that up is indeed a diversion attempt, and that doesn’t gain you any ground. > > Please \*quote \*any poster, or politician, you see or hear doing so, \*then \*we can discuss it. Meanwhile, you’re only telling us what you \*wish \*Rep. Omar had said so you could denounce it properly, aren’t you? I should have specified that I wasn’t speaking of **Elvis** in particular, or really anyone here. I apologize for that. I wasn’t bringing up Palestine for any “diversion”, hell I wasn’t even the first one to bring it up! It’s linked because it has a lot to do with Omar’s position on Israel. As for what I WISH she had said? “All about the Benjamins, baby.” “Israel has hypnotized the world,” (Sorry, the world not Congress. But c’mon here.) -Both of which were said by Omar. ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2019, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-semitism-and-the-accusations-agains-representative-ilhan-omar/830568/218 "2019-03-09T20:12:42Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > 1. Then there was her remark that “I want to talk about the political influence in this country that says it is okay to push for allegiance to a foreign country.” > > I still need this one explained to me. > … > The part that I’m missing is the part about laws that would force Americans in general - Jew and Gentile alike - to give up a portion of their rights in submission to Israel and its supporters in the U.S. When has that been an anti-Semitic trope? It wasn’t and isn’t, AFAICT; it’s just something that’s happening IRL, right now. I would attribute any slight confusion in the meaning there to speaking off the cuff, AFAIK it’s a quote from an audio of an apparently extemporaneous talk. The meaning most people reasonably took was simply ‘dual allegiance by Jews’. Although technically one could interpret it as people of various faiths promoting ‘allegiance’ to Israel or forcing others’ ‘allegiance’ to Israel. But even the latter interpretation wouldn’t be entirely at odds with a traditional anti-Semitic trope: an accusations that Jews force the US body politic as a whole to have a subservient relationship to Israel via the Jews’ ‘benjamins’ and ‘excessive influence’ in general. If somebody without the same history made that one remark indeed others might be more willing to say ‘huh, what do you mean by that exactly?’ But with Rep Omar there is a history. And that particular statement has zero to do with criticizing Israel, as do her other most criticized statements. She happens to be critical of the govt (at least) of Israel. But statements of hers in the vein of the one quoted are more heavily criticized _because_ they are clearly not about Israeli policy, but the supposed excessive influence and/or dual loyalty of American Jews. Omar isn’t just critical of Israeli govt policy. She’s anti-Israel, pretty obsessed with it (nothing like equal time for all the various wrongs of other govts overseas) and it seems reasonable to infer based on a series of incidents at least somewhat of an anti-Semite. Say at the level at which Pat Buchanan was dubbed a ‘constructive anti-Semite’ in a piece by William F. Buckley. The people of her district can elect whom they choose. And the Democratic Party can accommodate that choice and this Rep. how they choose. But it’s more hypocritical IMO to try to defend her using arguments that would be laughed off if the speaker were on the right than to just admit, a high degree of anti-Israeli govt feeling even if it crosses over into anti-Israel feeling or further into constructive antisemitism (things which _can_ be different, but not necessarily, and statements like this suggest Omar is all three) is now part of the Democratic ‘big tent’. ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2019, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-semitism-and-the-accusations-agains-representative-ilhan-omar/830568/219 "2019-03-09T20:47:22Z")
I try to look at this issue (and all issues relating to Israel) from the perspective of both sides. I really do. Here’s how it breaks down for me: 1. On one hand, pretty much all Jews in America are only one or two generations removed from the Holocaust. It’s impossible to separate the issue of Israel from the Holocaust, in a “big picture” sense. The Holocaust was the culmination of a very long history of persecution, and it happened in _living memory._ There was a gigantic orgy of death and destruction, and peoples’ collective cultural memory of it is still vivid, thanks to the endless photos that virtually everyone in America grows up seeing. Millions of human beings were just sent to die - all their accomplishments and aspirations and identities completely disregarded, tossed aside…some of them were highly educated and successful scholars and scientists, some of them were decorated war heroes who had fought and bled for what they thought was their country in WWI, some of them were great musicians or artists, some of them were just average people of modest means, some were poor peasants, old men, young children…and they all shared the same fate: being treated like _nothing_. Nothing about who they did or who they were made any difference, they were all stripped naked, starved, and mechanically killed in the same method that people use to kill insects. How do you think the experience of all of this collectively traumatized a culture? The answer is, a lot. When that culture gets a piece of territory they can call their own - and we can endlessly debate the circumstances under which they got that territory - ONE place in the world where they know that they will NOT suffer that same fate again - they are going to be fiercely protective of it. Why _wouldn’t_ they? It’s just common sense, right? 1. On the other hand, _everyone_ in the world is only a few generations away from people who suffered. Why should Israel get treated with kid gloves? Why is it that when Israel causes people to suffer, it’s so goddamn hard to call them out without being accused of bigotry against Jews? Israel receives a colossal amount of money from the United States - this is a country that’s supposedly a first-world nation and a scientific powerhouse that is constantly developing innovative technology, why do they need billions and billions of dollars given to them by the United States? They have, for decades now, continued an occupation of Palestinians - which includes not only Muslims but also Christians - with an “out of sight, out of mind” approach, basically just building a giant wall and saying “fuck everyone on the other side.” If you have Jewish friends on Facebook, you’ve probably seen pictures of young American Jews taking trips to Israel, partying and camping and riding camels and doing all this fun touristy shit, while on the other side of that wall, people are living in complete misery. How can that not seem disturbing? In my opinion, which I realize doesn’t count for very much, I think the concept of founding Israel was a good idea, but it should have been founded somewhere else. Almost ANYWHERE else, actually. Israel is a small country. A territory of that size could probably have been carved out of existing land in another area of the world that was not 1. already occupied by other people, and 2. surrounded by hostile nations. There was a lot of uninhabited land at the time that Israel was created. The same way the British set aside the Mandate of Palestine, they could have presumably done the same thing somewhere else (Australia?) But there’s no point in dwelling on what COULD have been. The fact is, Israel exists, where it is, right NOW, and it’s not going anywhere. So how do we discuss it, as it pertains to politics, with the greatest likelihood of 1. not pissing off lots of Jews, and 2. actually _achieving_ something resembling progress? My own opinion (again, not counting for much) : 1. Avoid use of the word “Zionist.” It flat out IS used as an anti-Semitic dog whistle a lot. Zionism was a political movement that originated in the late 19th century. As an ideology it has little relation to current day Jews and Israelis. The word “Zionist” just sounds antiquated and outdated to me, like “Mohammedan” or “Oriental.” 2. Spin the foreign-aid issue as “Israel shouldn’t need to be dependent on the US, they’re a solid country and can stand on their own”. I’m not saying that ALL money to Israel should be shut off - America gives money to a lot of other countries - but the amount could be reduced incrementally. And instead of making it seem like a punitive measure, it could be spun as “helping them help themselves” - shit, isn’t that what America is supposed to be all about? ---
**Author:** ![str8cashhomie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7cd45c/32.png) [@str8cashhomie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/str8cashhomie)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2019, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-semitism-and-the-accusations-agains-representative-ilhan-omar/830568/220 "2019-03-09T22:55:56Z")
> [@Lamoral](#): > > In my opinion, which I realize doesn’t count for very much, I think the concept of founding Israel was a good idea, but it should have been founded somewhere else. Almost ANYWHERE else, actually. Israel is a small country. A territory of that size could probably have been carved out of existing land in another area of the world that was not 1. already occupied by other people, and 2. surrounded by hostile nations. There was a lot of uninhabited land at the time that Israel was created. The same way the British set aside the Mandate of Palestine, they could have presumably done the same thing somewhere else (Australia?) I think this is wrong for the right reasons - fundamentally the problem is that for most populated parts of the world, there are far more ethnic groups than states. Supposedly there are over a hundred ethnic groups in Myanmar, for example. If you try to give a state to every ethnic group, you either balkanize the world and create even more situations where people can no longer move around in areas they are used to doing so, or about 1000 ethnic groups have to all agree to move to Siberia (or Australia). In the case of Jews post-WWII, Palestine was a place that had a significant Jewish population already, many Jews were migrating to Palestine, and it was a British territorial holding so they had a lot of reign to do what they wanted with it. One of the biggest mistakes the Brits made was promising it to both Jews and Arabs. Obviously the religious significance both created a stronger motivation for Jews to move there, and caused Muslims to view it as something they weren’t going to compromise on. > [@](#): > > But there’s no point in dwelling on what COULD have been. The fact is, Israel exists, where it is, right NOW, and it’s not going anywhere. So how do we discuss it, as it pertains to politics, with the greatest likelihood of 1. not pissing off lots of Jews, and 2. actually _achieving_ something resembling progress? I strongly agree with this. I sort of understand not recognizing a state you feel was established illegitimately, but several generations onward when almost the entire country was born after it’s founding, Arab states and pro-Palestinian groups really need to accept reality, recognize Israel as a state and not call for it’s destruction. > [@](#): > > 1. Avoid use of the word “Zionist.” It flat out IS used as an anti-Semitic dog whistle a lot. Zionism was a political movement that originated in the late 19th century. As an ideology it has little relation to current day Jews and Israelis. The word “Zionist” just sounds antiquated and outdated to me, like “Mohammedan” or “Oriental.” The problem here is that Zionism is an actual ideology, and it is one of the reasons for Israel’s settlement policy, and some of Israel’s policies concerning religion. It’s used by some people as a code word for Jew, but if the word was no longer used we would need another word for “Believers in establishing Eretz Ysrael”. > [@](#): > > 1. Spin the foreign-aid issue as “Israel shouldn’t need to be dependent on the US, they’re a solid country and can stand on their own”. I’m not saying that ALL money to Israel should be shut off - America gives money to a lot of other countries - but the amount could be reduced incrementally. And instead of making it seem like a punitive measure, it could be spun as “helping them help themselves” - shit, isn’t that what America is supposed to be all about? I generally agree with this, although it clearly has a political motivation besides just “Israel should stand on it’s own.” I think people would see through that and still debate all the political questions underlying this type of decision. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-semitism-and-the-accusations-agains-representative-ilhan-omar/830568.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-semitism-and-the-accusations-agains-representative-ilhan-omar/830568.md?page=12)