# Anti-Semitism on College Campuses **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 4, 2024, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-semitism-on-college-campuses/995608 "2024-01-04T20:35:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2024, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-semitism-on-college-campuses/995608/181 "2024-01-30T19:51:38Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I don’t know, but maybe we should continue this elsewhere. A spin-off of a spin-off! All I know is, I am not starting it. > [@DSeid](#): > > Do you really think McGill and Gay would have flubbed it so badly if the question was about calling for genocide of native Americans, Blacks, immigrants, gays, or the transgendered? As a former student of Penn, I wouldn’t put it past 'em. Their dominant ideology is CYOA. Which, um, they didn’t do very well with, either. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2024, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-semitism-on-college-campuses/995608/182 "2024-01-30T20:01:13Z")
I’m sorry, but I’m having trouble parsing about half the sentences in that post. Given that it’s already a hijack of a hijack, maybe I should let it drop here. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2024, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-semitism-on-college-campuses/995608/183 "2024-01-30T20:06:04Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Do you really think McGill and Gay would have flubbed it so badly if the question was about calling for genocide of native Americans, Blacks, immigrants, gays, or the transgendered? I do. I don’t really see why they wouldn’t. If there were a predominantly Black nation at war, massacring a bunch of civilians who had supporters on campus, in response to some horrible thing that had been done to that mostly-Black nation, i think it would have played out similarly. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2024, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-semitism-on-college-campuses/995608/184 "2024-01-30T20:39:01Z")
“Would calling for the genocide of native Americans be against code of conduct on your campus?” “Well. It depends on if it turns into conduct or not.” “Would calling for the genocide of Blacks be against the university code of conduct?” “Depends. In certain contexts it could be harassment …” Yeah sure that would happen. And I am six feet tall with a full head of hair. It wouldn’t and the difference is obvious; it is based in the clarity of the presidents’ understanding of those groups as less powerful and oppressed on that line. They know what the reaction would have been. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2024, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-semitism-on-college-campuses/995608/185 "2024-01-30T20:43:30Z")
Reading the Harvard lawsuit linked above might be enlightening. The plaintiffs state that their Zionist identity is integral to their Jewish identity, and document repeated attempts to forbid demonstrations against Israel on Harvard’s campus. Gay might have been thinking about that when she was answering that question: if she said “yes,” she knew the next question would be a “gotcha” about some demonstration or another that the plaintiffs et al considered to be calling for genocide, based on a very specific understanding of Zionism and the state of Israel. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2024, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-semitism-on-college-campuses/995608/186 "2024-01-30T20:56:11Z")
Nice imaginary thought process. As I understand it though it was simpler than that. McGill and Gay were both prepped by the same consultant who prepped them for that sort of question. McGill went first and trained as a lawyer responded in that legalistic way according to her prep. Gay heard that answer and, well copying others work is something she knows how to do 😁 … Each would have recognized what the gotcha was if it wasn’t genocide against the Jews but against a group with a higher current oppression score in progressive circles. (The gotcha was starting with River to the Sea, which some claim is not a call for genocide and may be chanted without awareness that it means that to many Jews, and getting them to anchor on that while switching the question to genocide, labeled clearly.) ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2024, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-semitism-on-college-campuses/995608/187 "2024-01-30T20:56:19Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > based on a very specific understanding of Zionism and the state of Israel. And this is that blind spot we are talking about. It’s certainly not controversial here on the Dope to claim that when Ben Gvir or Smotrich calls for removing the Palestinians from Gaza or from the West Bank, this is a call for genocide. Yet when someone - be it Hamas, a Palestinian activist, or an American college kid - we suddenly get a bunch of equivocating about how calls for the elimination of the state of Israel is only genocidal under certain points of view. It’s incredibly frustrating. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2024, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-semitism-on-college-campuses/995608/188 "2024-01-30T20:58:24Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Yet when someone - be it Hamas, a Palestinian activist, or an American college kid - we suddenly get a bunch of equivocating about how calls for the elimination of the state of Israel is only genocidal under certain points of view. As I said, reading the lawsuit is illuminating. We’re not talking about “calls for the elimination of the state of Israel.” We’re talking about things like calling for an immediate ceasefire. Incredibly frustrating, indeed. > [@DSeid](#): > > Nice imaginary thought process. Okay, buddy. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2024, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-semitism-on-college-campuses/995608/189 "2024-01-30T21:54:15Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Okay, buddy. It _isn’t_ something you are _imagining_ she _might_ have _possibly_ thought? Of course it is. And yes I think it is quite a bit of complicated gymnastics to imagine that. Relevance? The relative acceptance of a call for genocide against Jews, the question asked, as needing clarity for whether is becoming conduct or needing context? It reflects the thinking among college administrators and students alike. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2024, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-semitism-on-college-campuses/995608/190 "2024-01-30T21:58:37Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > We’re not talking about “calls for the elimination of the state of Israel.” I am not talking about the lawsuit; I’m talking about the chants we have all seen on the news, of “river to the sea” and “globalize the intifada”. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2024, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-semitism-on-college-campuses/995608/191 "2024-01-30T22:11:52Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > It _isn’t_ something you are _imagining_ she _might_ have _possibly_ thought? So not interested. > [@Babale](#): > > I am not talking about the lawsuit Okay, but I was, so it’s pretty frustrating to get called out because you were talking about something else. ---
**Author:** ![WalterBishop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/aeb1de/32.png) [@WalterBishop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WalterBishop)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2024, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-semitism-on-college-campuses/995608/192 "2024-01-30T22:23:15Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > “Physically impossible for a black person to be racist” may mean they’re talking about institutional racism in the United States, and even then they may be speaking hyperbolically and may be uninterested, when discussing broad conditions, in whatabouting edge cases. My experience on Threads suggests that there’s a strain of thought, particularly among young progressives, that racism comes in two forms: institutional and interpersonal. White people can be guilty of both and black people can be guilty of neither. I’ve asked a good many of them, point blank, _If five black guys beat up a white guy for being white, would you call them racist?_ and without exception the answer is always ‘No’. I’m not sure if this school of thought is burgeoning or prevailing, but the sheer number of such exasperating conversations I’ve been involved in suggests to me that it’s more likely the latter. Now, I’m aware that this could be a mirage. The algorithm might have picked up on the fact that I tend to get involved in these conversations and might be feeding me more of them. It might be that, for some reason I’m unaware of, Threads is particularly hospitable to young people who’ve not had the time to think these issues through. However, I can only go by what I’ve experienced and my experience suggests to me that, at the very least, if progressives whose understanding of their own beliefs is unsophisticated are in a minority then that minority is not negligible. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I believe there are dummies out there, but are there actually any dummies with any sort of power saying this sort of un-nuanced thing? Individually, I don’t believe these people don’t have any meaningful power to speak of. However, as a group I believe they have a great deal of power. Their combined voices have the power to completely derail important conversations about race, sex, the Israel/Palestine conflict, and a slew of other topics. If there’s one thing we can take away from the ascendancy of Donald Trump it’s that we underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups at our own peril. Furthermore, I think it’s inevitable that some of these dummies will eventually find themselves elected to positions of power just like dummies from the Tea Party ended up being elected. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > It’s far more common for me to encounter this as a straw man of the right’s creation than in reality, so I’m pretty skeptical when yet another person offers this claim without cites. I’d be willing to provide you with cites (although I’d rather not cite directly from the conversations I’ve personally been involved in because I post on Threads under my own name). However, I think you’d find it more useful to sign up to Threads yourself and have a look around. If you spend a couple of weeks on Threads posting as you believe a reasonable conservative would post then, if your experience is anything like mine, you’ll be inundated with examples in short order. Obviously, I’ll completely understand if you don’t want to do that so if you’d prefer me to provide some examples then just repeat your request and I’ll oblige. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2024, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-semitism-on-college-campuses/995608/193 "2024-01-30T22:26:24Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > The relative acceptance of a call for genocide against Jews, the question asked, That wasn’t the question asked. > [@Babale](#): > > I am not talking about the lawsuit; I’m talking about the chants we have all seen on the news, of “river to the sea” and “globalize the intifada”. Despite all the talk about “from the river to the sea”, every time I actually see photos of protests at Harvard, or read reports that spell out what the signs say, they say things like “free Palestine” and “cease-fire”. I read stories of students lying down to simulate death, or sitting quietly in the library holding up signs like those ones. I am once again asking for actual evidence that things are as bad at Harvard as the op-ed pieces claim they are. I think Gay failed. But it’s partly because she was trying to answer in good faith, based on the actual range of political protests she was dealing with, and the questions weren’t asked in good faith. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2024, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-semitism-on-college-campuses/995608/194 "2024-01-30T22:43:22Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > That wasn’t the question asked The heck it wasn’t. [Here’s the transcript](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/videos/2023-12-08/harvard-penn-heads-questioned-about-antisemitism-video). > [@](#): > > - Does calling for the genocide of Jews violate Harvard’s rules of bullying and > - 02:04harassment? Not calling for a ceasefire. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2024, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-semitism-on-college-campuses/995608/195 "2024-01-30T22:45:27Z")
That was McGill. Her testimony was by far the worst. And what she said was inexcusable. I don’t have the transcript handy, but I’m pretty sure that’s not what Gay said. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2024, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-semitism-on-college-campuses/995608/196 "2024-01-30T22:48:34Z")
My recollection is that Gay was asked if “from the river to the sea” can be taken as a call for genocide. And later was asked if it’s always a violation of Harvard’s rules of conduct to say that. My verbal recollection isn’t great, but i remember thinking that she was asked ab awkward question. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2024, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-semitism-on-college-campuses/995608/197 "2024-01-30T23:05:52Z")
> [@WalterBishop](#): > > My experience on Threads suggests that there’s a strain of thought, particularly among young progressives, that racism comes in two forms: institutional and interpersonal. White people can be guilty of both and black people can be guilty of neither. I’ve asked a good many of them, point blank, _If five black guys beat up a white guy for being white, would you call them racist?_ and without exception the answer is always ‘No’. I don’t know anything about the conversations you get involved with in that forum, nor anything about the people conversing with you there. Nor do I want to get into a hijack about racism in this discussion, so apologies if I’m just dropping this in the thread and leaving it. However, I think it’s worth pointing out that for decades, a very widespread and well-known interpretation of racism has invoked the concept of [“prejudice plus institutional power”.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prejudice_plus_power) That is, according to this interpretation racism is understood to be something more than just racial prejudice: it’s the combination of racial prejudice with a dominant culture that endorses and enforces that prejudice. So yes, according to that interpretation—which, again, is not particularly new or niche—it’s valid to say that in the US black people cannot be racist against white people, no matter how much they may be prejudiced against white people on account of their race. It’s not the fault of young progressives that you somehow missed the existence of this line of thought over the last half-century or so. Nor does it necessarily imply that the young progressives you talk with are unable to recognize or admit that black people can have prejudice against white people. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2024, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-semitism-on-college-campuses/995608/198 "2024-01-30T23:12:37Z")
Okay found a [transcript](https://rollcall.com/2023/12/13/transcript-what-harvard-mit-and-penn-presidents-said-at-antisemitism-hearing/). She was possibly more fumbling but to her credit she also refused to straight answer about calls for genocide against Blacks. So my obvious thought was incorrect. > [@](#): > > ELISE STEFANIK: Dr. Gay, a Harvard student calling for the mass murder of African Americans is not protected free speech at Harvard, correct? > > CLAUDINE GAY: Our commitment to free speech — > > ELISE STEFANIK: That’s a yes or no question. Is that correct? Is that Ok for students to call for the mass murder of African Americans at Harvard? Is that protected free speech? > > CLAUDINE GAY: Our commitment to free speech — > > ELISE STEFANIK: It’s a yes or no question. Let me ask you this. You are president of Harvard, so I assume you’re familiar with the term intifada, correct? > > CLAUDINE GAY: I’ve heard that term, yes. > > ELISE STEFANIK: And you understand that the use of the term intifada in the context of the Israeli Arab conflict is indeed a call for violent armed resistance against the state of Israel, including violence against civilians and the genocide of Jews. Are you aware of that? > > CLAUDINE GAY: That type of hateful speech is personally abhorrent to me. > > ELISE STEFANIK: And there have been multiple marches at Harvard with students chanting quote, “there is only one solution intifada revolution.” And quote, “globalize the intifada.” Is that correct? > > CLAUDINE GAY: I’ve heard that thoughtless, reckless and hateful language on our campus, yes. > > ELISE STEFANIK: So, based upon your testimony, you understand that this call for intifada is to commit genocide against the Jewish people in Israel and globally, correct? > > CLAUDINE GAY: I will say again that type of hateful speech is personally abhorrent to me. > > ELISE STEFANIK: Do you believe that type of hateful speech is contrary to Harvard’s code of conduct or is it allowed at Harvard? > > CLAUDINE GAY: It is at odds with the values of Harvard. But our values also — > > ELISE STEFANIK: Can you not say here that it is against the code of conduct at Harvard? > > CLAUDINE GAY: We embrace a commitment to free expression, even of views that are objectionable, offensive, hateful. It’s when that speech crosses into conduct that violates our policies against bullying, harassment — > > ELISE STEFANIK: Does that speech not cross that barrier? Does that speech not call for the genocide of Jews and the elimination of Israel? > > CLAUDINE GAY: When — > > ELISE STEFANIK: You testify that you understand that it’s the definition of intifada. Is that speech according to the code of conduct or not? > > CLAUDINE GAY: We embrace a commitment to free expression and give a wide berth to free expression even of views that are objectionable — > > ELISE STEFANIK: Well, let me ask you this, will admissions offers be rescinded or any disciplinary action be taken against students or applicants who say from the river to the sea or intifada advocating for the murder of Jews? > > CLAUDINE GAY: As I’ve said that type of hateful reckless offensive speech is personally abhorrent to me. > > ELISE STEFANIK: [inaudible] today that no action will be taken — what action will be taken? > > CLAUDINE GAY: When speech crosses into conduct that violates our policies, including policies against bullying, harassment or intimidation, we take action. And we have robust disciplinary processes that allow us to hold individuals accountable. > > ELISE STEFANIK: What action has been taken against students who are harassing and calling for the genocide of Jews on Harvard’s campus? > > CLAUDINE GAY: I can assure you we have robust — She had apparently made the mistake of agreeing that intifada and river to the sea meant genocide, or did not correct that anyway, and from there stepped in it. But she _did_ also respond to a call for mass murder of Blacks with an attempted comment about free speech. So for her at least I was wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2024, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-semitism-on-college-campuses/995608/199 "2024-01-30T23:14:03Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > So yes, according to that interpretation—which, again, is not particularly new or niche—it’s valid to say that in the US black people cannot be racist against white people, no matter how much they may be prejudiced against white people on account of their race. As I used to frequently see on the internet a few years ago, check your privelege. This sounds like something college educated individuals might know while the hoi polloi who didn’t double major in diversity and sensitive, or even go to college, doesn’t. Which is a problem when people try taking their knowledge and terms they learned as an undergraduate and applying them in the real world where such words might be used differently. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2024, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-semitism-on-college-campuses/995608/200 "2024-01-30T23:16:51Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > But she _did_ also respond to a call for mass murder of Blacks with an attempted comment about free speech. > > So for her at least I was wrong. Yup. And the question she answered was squishier. I don’t know what’s happening at Penn. I have no relation to Penn beyond having worked with a lot of Penn grads in the past. I’ve been following the Harvard and MIT stories much more closely, because I am pretty close to both those schools. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-semitism-on-college-campuses/995608.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-semitism-on-college-campuses/995608.md?page=11)