Okay, so these people exist. So what? Racism is very bad. So is institutional inequality. It’s good that there are vocal people pushing on these issues.
To relate this to the overall topic - responses to the Oct 7th attacks have indeed revealed more anti semitism, on the left and everywhere else, than I was aware of beforehand. Lots of people just blaming Jews and justifying attacks on Jews. But I see no evidence this is a problem intrinsic to the left - rather that it’s revealing a lot of anti semitism that was otherwise hidden. Sort of like the way Trump made racism and other bigotry more acceptable, so we saw more of what had been hidden before. This is all bad stuff, but you haven’t presented anything that suggests it’s a problem inherent to progressivism.
Maybe you’re right. I’m open to considering that it is more just people saying the quiet part out loud more. But if so then it still seems that progressive antisemites use certain concepts as their justifications with some consistency.
Of course you say that. I don’t know whether to laugh or cry.
Why must you waste both of our time debating whether these activists exist when you’re just going to turn around and say it’s good that they do?
Will you agree it is bad for anti-racists or social justice activists to be defining racism in a way that technically excludes much anti-Semitism? And that the ‘racism is privilege plus power’ definition does this? The ADL at least had the sense to change their definition when they saw how it was used.
Did Trump reveal more racism on the left? That wasn’t my perception. More like the reaction made the left more keen to root out any existing racism. I do not see any similar dedication to eliminating anti-Semitism now.
People who advocate against racism and bigotry? Of course it’s good that they exist! Maybe some of them go about it in ways that are more or less effective than others. I think it’s fine to debate that, as long as we’re specific on who and what we’re talking about.
I’m unconvinced. I find semantics mostly boring. More importantly – are these people saying anti-semitism is acceptable, or justifiable? If so, that’s very bad. Are they saying it’s unacceptable, but it’s different than racism? Well, I’m willing to hear what they have to say.
Of course not – Trump revealed more racism on the right, and made it more acceptable among the right. If all you’re saying is that the left (and everyone else) could and should do more to fight anti-semitism, then I agree.
You are asking for a debate on semantics. I’m not interested in debating what ‘progressive’ or ‘social justice activist’ or ‘anti-racist’ actually means. I just want a name for a loose set of overlapping ideas and the people that espouse them, so I can talk about it.
Sometimes they say it is acceptable because it is ‘punching up’. More often they say or imply that it’s not as serious, not a real problem. When it comes to racism of one minority against another, it is seen as a difficult subject and often ignored, which allows it to fester. Unwillingness to confront racism among non-whites is one of the reasons the left is doing a bad job of fighting anti-Semitism, I believe. Hatred of ‘oppressor groups’ and ‘colonialism’ combined with blindness to nuance and a not-specific-to-the-left conflation of Jews with Israel is actually encouraging it.
ETA: literally for many young people it seems their reasoning is no more sophisticated than “white people (Israelis) are oppressing brown people (Palestinians), so we should side with the latter”.
Some never thought the quiet part. Some are now saying the quiet part out loud. Some still don’t actually say that part. And of course like all bigotry some are implicitly antisemitic: “You are crazy and paranoid to think that my actions and statements are impacted by negative stereotypes I hold about Jews. Some of best friends are Jewish and there isn’t an antisemitic bone in my body.” And they believe it even as they have become aware of the impact of implicit racism.
No way to tell who is who of course unless they do say the quiet part out loud. But I think we can be confident that the ones who do say it out loud are just the tip of the Greenberg … (old joke reference).
Israel does have many problems that may be political problems but are related to “Jews”, except it’s not really about Jews or Judaism at all rather than about groups like religious fundamentalists and others who manipulate the public in the name of Judaism. Just for instance, try getting same-sex-married in Israel, or married at all, for that matter, while avoiding clerics, or sorting out your transgender paperwork. A lot of racism. Even against citizens, and plenty of mysterious paperwork problems for non-Jewish immigrants, or those who refuse to say. (Note: American Jews are not considered Jewish, but in practice an exception has been carved out for them).
Point is, some or all of these may be legitimate targets for protests, but it’s not against Jews, it’s against demagogues and corruption. In fact, Jews are the ones most likely to be at the forefront of such protests since they are the majority in Israel.
The first I ever heard of anti-Zionism was as a teenager, when I worked with Bob Shelton, owner of Internationalist Books in Chapel Hill. He was a radical Jewish leftist, and if I remember correctly, his anti-Zionism was inextricably tied both to his Jewish identity and his leftist beliefs.
It’s not a coincidence that anti-Zionism is a common stance on the left, nor is it a coincidence that antisemitism and anti-Zionism often go together–but they’re completely different paths to reach the same conclusion. Of course there are leftist antisemites, but that means they’re reaching the conclusion twice, not that one path is the same as the other.
This is just a whole bunch of vague anecdotes. Can’t you at least find a prominent example - say an essay or opinion article written by someone prominent you think fits into the group you’re referring to? If so, at least we could debate some specific and cited arguments.
Dude. Are you saying the Calgary Anti-Racist Educational Collective isn’t prominent? It’s SIX PEOPLE! In CALGARY!
What more do you want? Ibrim X Kendi? Okay, you got it! Folks who are complaining about antiracist ideology, what does Ibrim X. Kendi have to say? Go! Or what about Kimberle Williams Crenshaw, who formulated intersectionality theory? Or Richard Delgado, who helped formulate Critical Race Theory? Whatcha got, y’all?
Because it absolutely matters what the thinkers say. If their theories are fundamentally antisemitic–if they “logically lead to antisemitism”, as has been claimed–then the theories are flawed, possibly irredeemably, and should be abandoned.
If, however, the original thinkers are anti-antisemitic, and if their theories oppose antisemitism, then it’s not the theories that are at fault; it’s the misunderstanding of the theories. Those who oppose antisemitism should oppose attempts to smear the theories, and instead focus on opposing the misunderstanding of the theories.
Of course, there are those who are upset over CRT and intersectionality and antiracism, but don’t want to admit it, and who amplify the voices of the dummies because it’s a strategy to discredit the theories they really oppose. This is a cynical, contemptible exploitation of anti-antisemitism; and people who do this, e.g., Ben Shapiro, Christopher Rufo, et al, should be exposed and roundly condemned.
This is a complete misunderstanding of your linked article. From the article:
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu rejected Mr. Azoulay’s remarks. In a statement, he described them as “hurtful” and said they “do not reflect the position of the government.” Mr. Netanyahu said he had spoken with Mr. Azoulay “to remind him that Israel is a home for all Jews and that as minister of religious affairs, he serves all of Israel’s citizens.
I agree with you. It is very unfortunate that such people cynically use the very real issue of anti-semitism for such nonsense, because it distracts from actually being able to address those issues.
It distracts from being able to address the issues because every time someone raises those issues, they are accused of spreading right-wing propaganda, or being fooled by right-wing propaganda, or playing into the hands of right-wingers. It’s a great way to avoid difficult and uncomfortable self-examination.
So why not find just a single example out in the wild? Not some idiot’s tweet, but an article written by someone you think fits? And tell us what you think is wrong?
This really doesn’t sound very difficult. I bet you could do it in 10 minutes.
The problem is that those things do happen, and are very prevalent. The Right constantly acts as if they are appealing to Jews while shitting all over us.
The prime example is the very term “Judeo-Christian Values”. Every single time it is used, that term means “Christian Values”. Being coopted by the very people responsible for most historical oppression of Jews to justify adherence to the philosophy that motivated most of that oppression is not something most of us enjoy; it is gross.
At the end of the day, the biggest threats to Jewish people today, both in Israel and abroad, all come from far right wing sources (including fundamentalist Islam which, let us not forget, is a very right wing ideology).
There is certainly anti-semitism on the left. We should address it head on and combat it. But I can hardly imagine a stupider path for a Jewish person faced with such antisemitism than turning rightwards, to the party that enables Christian nationalists, white supremacists, and literal Nazis.
I am much more comfortable with people who share my basic core principles but underestimate (in my opinion) the importance of Israel in preventing the Jewish people from being genocided, than a person who supports Israel because they want us Jews there for the final battle that will spill enough blood to cast Summon Jesus IX.
Let me be clear here, Christian Nationalism is a far bigger threat to Jewish people in the US than any left wing ideology. You can bet your ass that as soon as they’re sufficiently popular that open religiosity is no longer verboten, they’d drop the “Judeo” from “Judeo-Christian” fast as lightning. And we have plenty of historical examples that tell us what happens next.
That’s a core part of far right ideology, which in the US today the supposedly mainstream right wing party constantly platforms and enables.
There simply isn’t anything like that on the left. Like I said before - if the “racism is prejudice plus institutional power and nothing else” lens is the only one you ever look through, then yeah, that can leave you myopic to anti-semitism, minority on minority racism, etc. But while there’s no shortage of Twitter idiots or college students who just learned about this lens and can’t consider anything else, the vast majority of serious progressives do understand that other lenses exist and can be useful as well.
This bit of, some, Christianity can’t be mentioned enough.
But we shan’t mention the anti-Semitism of folks that only support Israel because the Jews must be herded back there (in some cases by any means necessary) so Jesus can come back and kill them all for ‘’‘’‘murdering’‘’‘’ him.
Which makes no fucking sense if you just fucking read the fucking Bible.
I’m sure you’re aware of the strain of Christianity that believes that they are the real Jews and the people that historically are seen as the Jews are mere worshipers at the Synagogue of Satan.
Maybe someday Christianity will rid itself of the original Blood Libel . . . but not in my lifetime.
That doesn’t entitle you to pick a name that doesn’t mean that, and claim that the supposed consequences of that “loose set of overlapping ideas” are a necessary consequence of the group actually described by that name.
Your link says nothing of the sort. Not all American Jews are Reform Jews; and excluding specifically Reform Jews isn’t the official position of the government of Israel, or of a lot of the citizens of the country. Even the person who said that was quoted as saying that he didn’t want to be the one who determines who’s a Jew.
There is a lot of religious dissension in Israel. And there are genuine problems with theocracy in Israel. That much is true.
Hear, hear!
Whenever I run into that phrase, I think “Here is somebody who thinks Judaism is the same thing as Christianity, which proves that they know nothing about at least one of them. And/or here is someone who wants to claim that everybody who is neither Jewish or Christian shares no moral values with either and may start randomly murdering people at any minute.”