# Anti-SSM argument goes from stupid to... what the heck is this? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 10, 2014, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819 "2014-04-10T19:53:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2014, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/341 "2014-04-11T21:12:23Z")
> [@Antinor01](#): > > sure thing. But they can and do change over time. ‘That’s the way we’ve done it before’ can be a useful guide, but is not the absolute final reason for doing something now. Yes, but there is, again, a distinction between ‘changing customs’ and a judge making a univocal decision. The deliberate blurring of this distinction is quite disingenuous. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2014, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/342 "2014-04-11T21:13:14Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > Yes, but there is, again, a distinction between ‘changing customs’ and a judge making a univocal decision. The deliberate blurring of this distinction is quite disingenuous. A round and round we go… ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2014, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/343 "2014-04-11T21:13:41Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > Your point. Not mine. But you did not address them. ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2014, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/344 "2014-04-11T21:14:54Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > Yes, but there is, again, a distinction between ‘changing customs’ and a judge making a univocal decision. The deliberate blurring of this distinction is quite disingenuous. According to you, there’s no such thing, and can’t be any such thing, as same sex marriage. You have discounted judicial, legislative and voter decisions on the matter. So one final question and then I’m really done discussing this with you. Under what circumstance would you accept that same sex marriage is a real thing? ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2014, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/345 "2014-04-11T21:15:58Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > But you did not address them. And you’ve not addressed 90% of what I and others have said. You first. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2014, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/346 "2014-04-11T21:16:17Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > It does not need to be prohibited because it’s not marriage and cannot be considered to be marriage. “‘When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.’” [There’s glory for you!](http://sabian.org/looking_glass6.php) ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2014, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/347 "2014-04-11T21:18:10Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > This is not an argument. Correct, I’m done arguing. Now I’m just gloating. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2014, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/348 "2014-04-11T21:19:02Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > “‘When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.’” > > [There’s glory for you!](http://sabian.org/looking_glass6.php) I have used that quote in one of my papers, and of course you know it’s meant ironically, to show the absurdity of such a position. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2014, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/349 "2014-04-11T21:21:00Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > I have used that quote in one of my papers, and of course you know it’s meant ironically, to show the absurdity of such a position. Then you should be able to recognize the fact that you’re tried to use this trick dozens of times. Over and over, you say marriage means whatever you say it means. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2014, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/350 "2014-04-11T21:24:59Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > I have used that quote in one of my papers, and of course you know it’s meant ironically, to show the absurdity of such a position. So … you’re not a prescriptivist when it comes to language? Do you then agree with Wikipedia that [argumentum ad populum](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum) does not apply when it comes to language usage? ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2014, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/351 "2014-04-11T21:28:41Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > So … you’re not a prescriptivist when it comes to language? > > Do you then agree with Wikipedia that [argumentum ad populum](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum) does not apply when it comes to language usage? Do you admit the distinction between succumbing to a barrage of propaganda and natural language change? They are not the same. If you keep telling people ‘everybody disagrees with you’ some people might cave in or get tired of fighting about it. Not me. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2014, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/352 "2014-04-11T21:30:37Z")
Actually, I’m pointing and laughing for the most part. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2014, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/353 "2014-04-11T21:30:48Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > Do you admit the distinction between succumbing to a barrage of propaganda and natural language change? They are not the same. If you keep telling people ‘everybody disagrees with you’ some people might cave in or get tired of fighting about it. Not me. It’s fairly offensive how easily you dismiss the sincerity of the people in this thread you’re communicating with. So, because I believe in equality for gays, I’m weal-willed and I’ve caved to propaganda? Not that I hold a deeply and sincere belief. How rude. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2014, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/354 "2014-04-11T21:32:48Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > It’s fairly offensive how easily you dismiss the sincerity of the people in this thread you’re communicating with. > > So, because I believe in equality for gays, I’m weal-willed and I’ve caved to propaganda? Not that I hold a deeply and sincere belief. How rude. It has nothing to do with ‘equality’ and you know it. ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2014, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/355 "2014-04-11T21:33:54Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > It has nothing to do with ‘equality’ and you know it. Yes it does and you know it. Heh, didn’t realize it was this easy. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2014, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/356 "2014-04-11T21:34:48Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > It has nothing to do with ‘equality’ and you know it. Of course it does. It has absolutely everything to do with equality. And substitute whatever word you want. You still dismiss sincere beliefs and that’s rude. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2014, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/357 "2014-04-11T21:36:29Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > Do you admit the distinction between succumbing to a barrage of propaganda and natural language change? Sure. I’m still pissed off about “NBC (nuclear/biological/chemical) weapons” being replaced by “weapons of mass destruction”. The former was more descriptive, and the latter is more inflammatory. But that battle was lost a long time ago. I certainly wouldn’t be foolish enough to pretend that “weapons of mass destruction” is a meaningless phrase just because I disagree with the politics of the people who pushed it. And I certainly wouldn’t hang my opposition to particular government policies on the hope that I could convince everybody to go back to the older term. Language moves on. ---
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2014, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/358 "2014-04-11T21:40:15Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > It has nothing to do with ‘equality’ and you know it. That’s a truly bizarre statement. What exactly is it about then? Are SS couples not seeking equality? If not what hidden agenda do you imagine they are pursuing? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2014, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/359 "2014-04-11T21:40:16Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > It has nothing to do with ‘equality’ and you know it. M: An argument isn’t just contradiction. A: It can be. M: No it can’t. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition. A: No it isn’t. M: Yes it is! It’s not just contradiction. A: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position. M: Yes, but that’s not just saying ‘No it isn’t.’ A: Yes it is! M: No it isn’t! A: Yes it is! M: Argument is an intellectual process. Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of any statement the other person makes. (short pause) A: No it isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2014, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/360 "2014-04-11T21:41:38Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > It has nothing to do with ‘equality’ and you know it. Dude, you are driving _this_ long-term avowed heterosexual toward a change in sexual preference just to be as far away from your position as possible. And, yes, I realize this isn’t an argument, just an observation. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819.md?page=19)