# Anti-SSM argument goes from stupid to... what the heck is this? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 10, 2014, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819 "2014-04-10T19:53:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 24
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2014, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/461 "2014-04-12T02:18:14Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > An interesting challenge, but unfortunately false. I have published in \*Semiotica \*and demolished the inept arguments of philosophy PhDs. That’s not an argument. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2014, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/462 "2014-04-12T02:22:14Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > Again, this is not an argument. Give me an argument. It wasn’t supposed to be an argument. You aren’t worth arguing with. ---
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2014, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/463 "2014-04-12T02:22:46Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > An interesting challenge, but unfortunately false. I have published in \*Semiotica \*and demolished the inept arguments of philosophy PhDs. I have a sneaking suspicion that you have redefined “demolished” to meet your specific needs as you are clearly accustomed to doing at will with any word when you find it convenient. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2014, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/464 "2014-04-12T02:27:28Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > Boss-employee > Aunt-nephew > Next door neighbor-next door neighbor > Boyfriend-boyfriend > Spouse-spouse > Teacher-student > Doctor-patient > > Wheeeeee, this is fun! Lawyer-client Customer-sales rep Friend-friend Enemy-enemy Man-his dog Man-his car ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2014, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/465 "2014-04-12T02:27:50Z")
> [@zoid](#): > > I have a sneaking suspicion that you have redefined “demolished” to meet your specific needs as you are clearly accustomed to doing at will with any word when you find it convenient. Well, when one of the said: “At first I was pissed, but then I realized that you had worked much harder on it than I did…” He wrote an article claiming that certain older translations were wrong. I showed that they were right, and why. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2014, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/466 "2014-04-12T02:29:04Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > what do you mean, ‘relationship’? There is no ‘relationship’. I read this post and, at first, thought it was mockery written by someone else, parodying your views. In that context, it’s quite funny. Poe’s Law or something. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2014, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/467 "2014-04-12T02:29:04Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Lawyer-client > Customer-sales rep > Friend-friend > Enemy-enemy > Man-his dog > Man-his car I am referring to \*legal \*relationships. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2014, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/468 "2014-04-12T02:29:54Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > An interesting challenge, but unfortunately false. I have published in \*Semiotica \*and demolished the inept arguments of philosophy **PhDs**. That’s spelled GEDs. ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2014, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/469 "2014-04-12T02:30:10Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > I am referring to \*legal \*relationships. Like the legal relationship that people in same sex marriages have in over a dozen states in the US, plus numerous other countries. Go on with your point. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2014, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/470 "2014-04-12T02:30:12Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > These are relationships: > > Father-son > Mother-daughter > Husband-wife > Creditor-debtor > > In modern parlance (Cosmopolitan Magazine-speak) ‘relationship’ means some ‘third thing’, which is of course an absurdity. Funny that you left out: Brother-brother Sister-sister Friend-friend So why not: Husband-husband Wife-wife Not to mention: Top-bottom ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2014, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/471 "2014-04-12T02:30:24Z")
I have a question for **Melchior**. Imagine, for the sake of argument, that we grant your definition of marriage. Imagine too that we create a whole new contractual agreement that’s significantly similar to marriage except it’s open to opposite-sex couples and same-sex couples. So it has the same age requirements as marriage. And it has the same ramifications for inheritance as marriage. It has the same effects as marriage when it comes to testifying in court – or adopting kids, or filing taxes, or making medical decisions, or getting a break on tuition – because, in all ways but one, it’s identical to marriage. If we give that arrangement some just-now-made-up name, would you be cool with it? And if we instead called it “marriage”, would you cry foul? Is that the entirety of your objection? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2014, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/472 "2014-04-12T02:30:41Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > Well, when one of the said: “At first I was pissed, but then I realized that you had worked much harder on it than I did…” > > He wrote an article claiming that certain older translations were wrong. I showed that they were right, and why. And where was it that you learned to state that your ideological opponents don’t actually believe what they say they believe? Do they teach that now in philosophy class? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2014, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/473 "2014-04-12T02:32:29Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > I am referring to \*legal \*relationships. LOL (lawyer-client is not a _legal_ relationship now?). But this is progress, for you, because in many states (due to things like popular referenda), same sex couples now absolutely _are_ legal relationships. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2014, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/474 "2014-04-12T02:35:01Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > I have a question for **Melchior**. > > Imagine, for the sake of argument, that we grant your definition of marriage. > > Imagine too that we create a whole new contractual agreement that’s significantly similar to marriage except it’s open to opposite-sex couples and same-sex couples. > > So it has the same age requirements as marriage. And it has the same ramifications for inheritance as marriage. It has the same effects as marriage when it comes to testifying in court – or adopting kids, or filing taxes, or making medical decisions, or getting a break on tuition – because, in all ways but one, it’s identical to marriage. > > If we give that arrangement some just-now-made-up name, would you be cool with it? And if we instead called it “marriage”, would you cry foul? > > Is that the entirety of your objection? Yes, it is the entirety of my objection. You could create something new (or perhaps just use adoption or Power of Attorney or a business partnership contract) that would take care of many of the wants. But it is not and cannot be ‘marriage’. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2014, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/475 "2014-04-12T02:36:04Z")
Ooh ooh – let’s play a game! What twisted etymological argument will **Melchior** come up with next? The latest is this _legal relationship_ nonsense, but I predict that he will quickly drop this ridiculous line of argument very quickly since it’s so obvious that same-sex marriages actually are legal relationships in many states. Next, I predict he will Gish Gallop back to one of his previous failed arguments - like the ‘words can’t change meaning’ nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2014, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/476 "2014-04-12T02:37:05Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > But it’s not and cannot be ‘marriage’. Unless, of course, the definition of the word changes. Oh, right – it’s already changing, based on people’s use of the word. So it is and can be marriage. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2014, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/477 "2014-04-12T02:39:13Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Unless, of course, the definition of the word changes. > > Oh, right – it’s already changing, based on people’s use of the word. So it is and can be marriage. No, again you confuse agitprop with semantic development. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2014, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/478 "2014-04-12T02:41:02Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > No, again you confuse agitprop with semantic development. No, it’s actually semantic development. I know you don’t want to accept it, but the English-speaking world really is changing the use of the word “marriage” such that it can include same-sex couples. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2014, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/479 "2014-04-12T02:42:02Z")
> [@zoid](#): > > Man you really do love to redefine words to meet your views. > You realize pretty much everyone else in the world has no objection to the term “relationship” in regard to same sex, um, “friendships” I guess we have to call them now? > You don’t get to redefine every damn word in the English language, you do realize that, correct? From Webster’s Third New International dictionary: Main Entry:mat£ri£mo£ny Pronunciation:_ma.tr\*\*m_n\*, -ni, chiefly Brit -r_m_n- Function:noun Inflected Form:-es Etymology:Middle English matrimony, matrimoigne, from Middle French matremoine, matremoigne, from Latin matrimonium, from matr-, mater mother \* more at MOTHER 1 a : the union of man and woman as husband and wife : married state : married life : MARRIAGE b : this union entered into by baptized persons and so viewed by several large Christian churches as constituting one of the sacraments 2 a : a card game played with a layout in which certain combinations of cards occur on which bets are placed b : a combination of a king and queen in this game Main Entry:mar£riage Pronunciation:_marij, -r_j also \*mer- Function:noun Inflected Form:-s Etymology:Middle English mariage, from Middle French, from marier to marry + -age \* more at MARRY 1 a : the state of being united to a person of the opposite sex as husband or wife b : the mutual relation of husband and wife : WEDLOCK c : the institution whereby men and women are joined in a special kind of social and legal dependence for the purpose of founding and maintaining a family — see MONOGAMY, POLYGAMY 2 : an act of marrying or the rite by which the married status is effected : WEDDING; especially : the wedding ceremony and attendant festivities or formalities — compare BEENA MARRIAGE, COEMPTIO, CONFARREATION, LEVIRATE 3 : an intimate or close union 4 : MARITAGE 5 : the combination of a king and queen of the same suit (as in pinochle) — see ROYAL MARRIAGE ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2014, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/480 "2014-04-12T02:42:17Z")
By the way – my prediction in post #475 was shown to be true in just 2 posts! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819.md?page=23) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819.md?page=25)