# Anti-SSM argument goes from stupid to... what the heck is this? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 10, 2014, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819 "2014-04-10T19:53:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 29
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/561 "2014-04-14T15:44:10Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > It’s pretty clear that you don’t want to answer this question. But it’s pretty simple: In your expert opinion, do words have intrinsic meanings? Or are the meanings of words determined by usage? Depends on what you mean by ‘usage’. I don’t agree with your definition of ‘usage’. See previous post. ‘Usage’ does not mean ‘I and some of my friends don’t like something so we’ll define it out of existence’. I am not that stupid to fall for this tactic. That’s begging the question. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/562 "2014-04-14T15:46:28Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > It would be the same as going before the court and saying the word ‘tax’ means ‘water’, even if I can persuade 10,000 folks to join me. It isn’t going to change just because you said so. Tsk, tsk. Someone didn’t read Frindle when they were young. I would advise you to spend the week studying its major themes before returning to this thread. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/563 "2014-04-14T15:47:00Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > Depends on what you mean by ‘usage’. I don’t agree with your definition of ‘usage’. See previous post. My definition of “usage”? I haven’t given you any definition of “usage”. I’m just trying to discover if you’re a descriptivist or a prescriptivist. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/564 "2014-04-14T15:47:41Z")
It’s pretty clear he’s a melchiortivist. ---
**Author:** ![Double\_Foolscap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85e7bf/32.png) [@Double\_Foolscap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Double_Foolscap)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/565 "2014-04-14T15:48:24Z")
The usage of ‘usage’ has changed over time, so discussions of word usage must first deal with the word ‘usage’. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/566 "2014-04-14T15:54:21Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > My definition of “usage”? I haven’t given you any definition of “usage”. I’m just trying to discover if you’re a descriptivist or a prescriptivist. Neither. I do not accept that you can cite as the basis for an argument the changing of meaning of a word whose usage you have yourself changed. That’s called equivocation. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/567 "2014-04-14T15:55:14Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > Neither. What determines the meaning of a word? ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/568 "2014-04-14T15:56:53Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > What determines the meaning of a word? I do not accept that you can cite as the basis for an argument the changing of meaning of a word whose usage you have yourself changed. That’s called equivocation. You cannot appeal to ‘changes in meaning’ when this so-called ‘change in meaning’ is merely nothing but your \*refusal \*to use the word in the accepted way. Slavery was abolished in the United States in 1863. We didn’t change the meaning of the word ‘slave’, did we? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/569 "2014-04-14T15:57:20Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > Neither. I do not accept that you can cite as the basis for an argument the changing of meaning of a word whose usage you have yourself changed. That’s called equivocation. Why do _you_ get to redefine marriage? Historically, _plural_ marriage has been the norm. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/570 "2014-04-14T15:58:58Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > No, I’m claiming that you cannot petition or argue about it, and \*demand \*that it change. You cannot have it changed just to suit your whims. Don’t try that tactic again. Or what? ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/571 "2014-04-14T16:00:02Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Why do _you_ get to redefine marriage? Historically, _plural_ marriage has been the norm. Yes, it has. But it wasn’t a bunch of men alone! ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/572 "2014-04-14T16:00:36Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > I do not accept that you can cite as the basis for an argument the changing of meaning of a word whose usage you have yourself changed. I’m just discussing general principles. What determines the meaning of a word? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/573 "2014-04-14T16:02:28Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > Yes, it has. But it wasn’t a bunch of men alone! So? The point is that it has already been redefined. In fact, marriage as an institution has evolved to reflect the needs and mores of society throughout history. In a society (like today’s) that is no longer bound by natural reproductive inheritance, and in which marriage is no longer tied to reproduction, there’s no reason to retain the old definition. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/574 "2014-04-14T16:04:59Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > You cannot appeal to ‘changes in meaning’ when this so-called ‘change in meaning’ is merely nothing but your \*refusal \*to use the word in the accepted way. Certainly someone’s refusing to use the word in the accepted way here, but it isn’t Hamster King. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/575 "2014-04-14T16:05:24Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > So? The point is that it has already been redefined. In fact, marriage as an institution has evolved to reflect the needs and mores of society throughout history. In a society (like today’s) that is no longer bound by natural reproductive inheritance, and in which marriage is no longer tied to reproduction, there’s no reason to retain the old definition. Of course there is. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/576 "2014-04-14T16:06:56Z")
Psst, this is the part where you expound upon the reasoning that leads you to conclude so. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/577 "2014-04-14T16:07:52Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Psst, this is the part where you expound upon the reasoning that leads you to conclude so. Spoiler alert: no, it isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/578 "2014-04-14T16:10:03Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > Of course there is. I agree that the cost of reprinting all those dictionaries is prohibitive, but we needed to update them to include \*twerk \*and \*ratchet \*anyway. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/579 "2014-04-14T16:11:32Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > Depends on what you mean by ‘usage’. I don’t agree with your definition of ‘usage’. See previous post. ‘Usage’ does not mean ‘I and some of my friends don’t like something so we’ll define it out of existence’. I am not that stupid to fall for this tactic. That’s begging the question. How about ‘Usage’ meaning ‘the majority of Americans believe and use the word “marriage” to describe unions that can include same-sex unions’? B Because that’s a factual statement about how Americans see and use that word. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/580 "2014-04-14T16:14:01Z")
**Melchior** seems to believe that the word has been changed by a small group of individuals. The facts say otherwise, but I don’t know how to demonstrate that to someone who isn’t listening. To sum up the thread: **Melchior** is factually incorrect, i.e. wrong. **Melchior** is not going to change his mind. **Melchior** is not going to change anyone else’s mind. Talking to **Melchior** is pointless. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819.md?page=28) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819.md?page=30)