# Anti-SSM argument goes from stupid to... what the heck is this?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [April 10, 2014, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819 "2014-04-10T19:53:49Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 3
### Author:  [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)
#### Post date: [April 10, 2014, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/41 "2014-04-10T21:41:47Z")
**Melchior** , is your only argument against SSM that it is a change from 100 years ago (or, uh, 40,000 years ago)? If you have other logical reasons to be opposed, what are they? Note that no one is suggesting _you_ must enter a same-sex marriage, so your personal squeamishness about it isn’t really relevant. How will your life (and your marriage, presuming you are married yourself) be negatively affected if other same-sex couples are allowed to marry?
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### Author:  [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)
#### Post date: [April 10, 2014, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/42 "2014-04-10T21:42:06Z")
> [@Melchior](#):
>
> tribal, of course…
Who or what is being tribal?
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### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [April 10, 2014, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/43 "2014-04-10T21:45:29Z")
> [@Melchior](#):
>
> Hilariously…false.
Which part?
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### Author:  [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)
#### Post date: [April 10, 2014, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/44 "2014-04-10T21:46:23Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#):
>
> Opposition to SSM is about malice, period. There’s no good reason at all to oppose it, which is why the anti-SSM people have consistently failed to come up with one no matter how often they are challenged. It’s one of the most one-sided moral disputes around.
False and deliberately so. It is not a ‘moral’ issue, and it has nothing to do with ‘malice’.
> [@](#):
>
> Human instinct. Marriage is simple the legal recognition and formalization of the human tendency to form romantic bonds, which is something same gender couples are just as capable of as any straight couple. .
You are using the word ‘gender’ incorrectly (‘sex’ is the correct word), and marriage is not about ‘romantic bonds’. Historically, marriage was for property and inheritance and preserving lineages.
> [@](#):
>
> Dogs aren’t consenting adults, bigamy is arbitrary, and there are potential genetic issues with having children with your sister.
Oh? Don’t dogs have rights? Ask the animal rights activists, your kind of people.
> [@](#):
>
> Murder has a victim. .
So? The point is that it is \*\*\*nothing but a custom \*\*\*to forbid murder.
> [@](#):
>
> A silly argument. Marriage has been very different in different places and times. It was changed much more quite recently in the West; only a few decades ago marriage wasn’t much more than a master and slave relationship between a male master and his female slave.
“It” hasn’t changed at all. You are confusing judicial activism and lawsuits with changes in customs.
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### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [April 10, 2014, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/45 "2014-04-10T21:49:44Z")
> [@Melchior](#):
>
> “It” hasn’t changed at all. You are confusing judicial activism and lawsuits with changes in customs.
Are you seriously arguing that customs for marriage have never changed?
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### Author:  [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)
#### Post date: [April 10, 2014, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/46 "2014-04-10T21:52:29Z")
> [@Melchior](#):
>
> > [@](#):
> >
> > Murder has a victim.
>
> So? The point is that it is \*\*\*nothing but a custom \*\*\*to forbid murder.
No, the point is that it is lunacy (to use your words) to suggest that custom alone is a good reason for laws. There has to be some underlying purpose served by the law. This purpose is very clear for murder. I’m waiting to hear your underlying purpose for banning SSM.
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### Author:  [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)
#### Post date: [April 10, 2014, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/47 "2014-04-10T21:53:46Z")
> [@TroutMan](#):
>
> I’m waiting to hear your underlying purpose for banning SSM.
It will probably boil down to “It’s icky.”
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### Author:  [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)
#### Post date: [April 10, 2014, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/48 "2014-04-10T21:53:58Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#):
>
> Are you seriously arguing that customs for marriage have never changed?
We are talking about the last few years here. Besides, there are numerous laws governing marriage and divorce that rest on no different foundation: laws regarding adultery, bigamy, etc. have no firmer foundation than custom. Can I not claim that it is unfair to forbid me from marrying someone simply because she is married to someone else?
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### Author:  [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)
#### Post date: [April 10, 2014, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/49 "2014-04-10T21:55:57Z")
> [@Melchior](#):
>
> It is not a ‘moral’ issue, and it has nothing to do with ‘malice’.
It is only about malice. It’s not even profitable.
> [@Melchior](#):
>
> You are using the word ‘gender’ incorrectly (‘sex’ is the correct word), and marriage is not about ‘romantic bonds’. Historically, marriage was for property and inheritance and preserving lineages.
It’s about romance now. You are just demonstrating that marriage does indeed change, a lot.
> [@Melchior](#):
>
> Oh? Don’t dogs have rights? Ask the animal rights activists, your kind of people.
Children have rights to; that doesn’t mean they can vote or get married. And it’s amusing that you compare me to animal rights activists like that’s an insult; do you literally support kicking puppies or something?
> [@Melchior](#):
>
> So? The point is that it is \*\*\*nothing but a custom \*\*\*to forbid murder.
No, it’s obvious enlightened self interest. People support murder being illegal because they don’t want to be murdered.
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### Author:  [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)
#### Post date: [April 10, 2014, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/50 "2014-04-10T21:56:06Z")
> [@TroutMan](#):
>
> No, the point is that it is lunacy (to use your words) to suggest that custom alone is a good reason for laws. There has to be some underlying purpose served by the law. This purpose is very clear for murder. I’m waiting to hear your underlying purpose for banning SSM.
It isn’t marriage at all. It doesn’t need to be ‘banned’ because it’s impossible, just as a square circle is impossible, by definition. It’s a joke. And don’t tell me you can redefine ‘square’ and ‘circle’!
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### Author:  [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)
#### Post date: [April 10, 2014, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/51 "2014-04-10T21:57:34Z")
> [@Melchior](#):
>
> It isn’t marriage at all. It doesn’t need to be ‘banned’ because it’s impossible, just as a square circle is impossible, by definition. It’s a joke.
Thank you. It definitely helps to understand the depth of your argument.
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### Author:  [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)
#### Post date: [April 10, 2014, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/52 "2014-04-10T21:57:50Z")
Speaking of circles…
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### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [April 10, 2014, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/53 "2014-04-10T21:59:40Z")
> [@Melchior](#):
>
> We are talking about the last few years here. Besides, there are numerous laws governing marriage and divorce that rest on no different foundation: laws regarding adultery, bigamy, etc. have no firmer foundation than custom. Can I not claim that it is unfair to forbid me from marrying someone simply because she is married to someone else?
You can claim anything you like. If you convince a majority, then perhaps things will change.
A majority has been convinced on same-sex marriage. It’s happening, and the numbers are just getting bigger and bigger – soon it won’t just be a majority, it will be an _overwhelming_ majority.
You’re free to sit in your house and whine “but that’s not real marriage!”, but most Americans will just ignore you and continue to get married and celebrate the marriages of their friends and families, and won’t give two shits what **Melchior** thinks about their marriage.
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### Author:  [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)
#### Post date: [April 10, 2014, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/54 "2014-04-10T22:02:36Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#):
>
> It is only about malice. It’s not even profitable.
>
> It’s about romance now. You are just demonstrating that marriage does indeed change, a lot.
You are confusing the \*reasons \*for marriage with the \*nature \*of marriage. Fallacy!
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### Author:  [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)
#### Post date: [April 10, 2014, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/55 "2014-04-10T22:03:02Z")
> [@Melchior](#):
>
> It isn’t marriage at all. It doesn’t need to be ‘banned’ because it’s impossible, just as a square circle is impossible, by definition.
That’s a silly argument. A marriage is a legal contract, and is therefore what the government chooses to label marriage.
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### Author:  [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)
#### Post date: [April 10, 2014, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/56 "2014-04-10T22:04:18Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#):
>
> You can claim anything you like. If you convince a majority, then perhaps things will change.
>
> A majority has been convinced on same-sex marriage. It’s happening, and the numbers are just getting bigger and bigger – soon it won’t just be a majority, it will be an _overwhelming_ majority.
>
> You’re free to sit in your house and whine “but that’s not real marriage!”, but most Americans will just ignore you and continue to get married and celebrate the marriages of their friends and families, and won’t give two shits what **Melchior** thinks about their marriage.
Argumentum ad populum…fallacy.
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum\_ad\_populum](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum)
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### Author:  [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)
#### Post date: [April 10, 2014, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/57 "2014-04-10T22:05:44Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#):
>
> First there was a “study” that claimed to show that same-sex parents were inferior to opposite-sex parents.
>
> Lots of people used this study to argue their court cases, including a defense in Utah of their SSM ban.
>
> Then a judge in Michigan eviscerated the study.
>
> Now the [defense in Utah](http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2014/04/10/3425146/utah-regnerus/) has decided they maybe don’t want to depend on this study. So they tell the court that the study isn’t important and that their opposition to SSM is all about the children of opposite-sex marriages.
>
> So… huh? They fear the “potential long-term impact of a redefinition of marriage on the children of heterosexual parents”? What the heck does that even MEAN?
I’m not sure what they’re saying either. I can see two possibilities.
1. Children of opposite sex couples will be discriminated against because they aren’t able to be raised by a same sex couple.
2. Children of opposite sex couples haven’t had the option of being raised by same sex couples, so many of them will decide to (how doesn’t seem answered) trade in their straight parents for gay ones. and ANARCHY or some such!
I didn’t say it made sense!
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### Author:  [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)
#### Post date: [April 10, 2014, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/58 "2014-04-10T22:05:50Z")
And the argument comes full circle back to stupid.
ETA: That was in reply to Melchior’s “argument,” not Antinor01’s!
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### Author:  [@lost4life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lost4life)
#### Post date: [April 10, 2014, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/59 "2014-04-10T22:06:33Z")
I would marry a dog, but not a gay one.
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### Author:  [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)
#### Post date: [April 10, 2014, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/60 "2014-04-10T22:08:28Z")
> [@Melchior](#):
>
> Argumentum ad populum…fallacy.
It’s not a fallacy if marriage is as you claim just a matter of custom. You can’t have it both ways.
And as a practical matter, so long as your side loses the people getting married won’t care, they’ll just be enjoying their marriage.
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