# Anti-SSM argument goes from stupid to... what the heck is this? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 10, 2014, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819 "2014-04-10T19:53:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 30
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/581 "2014-04-14T16:16:25Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > **Melchior** seems to believe that the word has been changed by a small group of individuals. The facts say otherwise, but I don’t know how to demonstrate that to someone who isn’t listening. > > To sum up the thread: > > **Melchior** is factually incorrect, i.e. wrong. > **Melchior** is not going to change his mind. > **Melchior** is not going to change anyone else’s mind. > Talking to **Melchior** is pointless. He also seems motivated by a reprehensible world view ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/582 "2014-04-14T16:18:04Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > He also seems motivated by a reprehensible world view ad hominem reporting you ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/583 "2014-04-14T16:22:04Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > ad hominem > > reporting you Knock yourself out. But you might want to take just a moment to peer into your soul and examine what’s really bothering you about SSM. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/584 "2014-04-14T16:25:52Z")
I remember this guy (_not_ a ling major) in a linguistics class who flipped out about the use of the word “tribalism” in an article because “tribe” originally denoted the tribes of Israel, and it was wrong to use it any other way. I just tried finding the rant he wrote in the college paper about connotation and denotation, but, alas, the archives are only available in print and I’m flying to the west coast today. Never mind that he had the etymology wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/585 "2014-04-14T16:28:58Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > Knock yourself out. But you might want to take just a moment to peer into your soul and examine what’s really bothering you about SSM. there is no such thing. ---
**Author:** ![Double\_Foolscap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85e7bf/32.png) [@Double\_Foolscap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Double_Foolscap)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/586 "2014-04-14T16:29:39Z")
Then peer into whatever sits between your ears. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/587 "2014-04-14T16:31:38Z")
> [@Double\_Foolscap](#): > > Then peer into whatever sits between your ears. > [@Melchior](#): > > there is no such thing. Asked and Answered … ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/588 "2014-04-14T16:32:56Z")
**Melchior** , you’re correct that marriage is based on biological imperatives, but those biological imperatives are a lot more complicated than you realize. Yes, there’s a biological drive towards reproduction, but that’s not what leads to marriage. Dogs are driven to reproduce, too, but they don’t much care with whom. If a bitch is in heat, all the male dogs around her will attempt to mate with her, and she’ll accept whomever is first as her mate. Doesn’t matter if she’s mated with that dog before, or if she ordinarily gets along with him, or anything like that. Dogs reproduce without anything resembling marriage. Swans, now, they’re different. Swans will take their time choosing their mates, and once chosen will tend to mate with the same partner repeatedly, over the course of their whole life. It’s a behavior called “pair bonding”, and swans feel a biological drive to engage in it. They don’t, of course, hold any special ceremonies about it, nor describe themselves with a special word once they’ve bonded, but that’s just because swans are neither sapient nor language-using. But they do, in so far as they’re mentally able, engage in something similar to marriage. Humans, now, well, it turns out that we’re sort of like swans. We, too, feel a biological drive to find one particular partner, and stay with that same partner for life. And because we are sapient and lingual, we have invented ceremonies and words concerning our pair-bonding process: That’s what marriage is. But here’s the thing: Most humans, and most swans, feel this biological drive to pair-bond with a member of the opposite sex. A few humans (and swans), however, have a slight variant on that biological drive. Those individuals instead have a biological drive to pair-bond with members of the same sex. So far as we can tell, though, all other aspects of this pair-bonding instinct work basically the same way as they do for the majority. So given that it appears to be the same biological drive accounting for both, why shouldn’t we use the same ceremonies and the same word for both? ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/589 "2014-04-14T16:34:23Z")
This is an opportunity to agree that union between same-sex adults, with the same legal and societal benefits of marriage, is a good thing. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/590 "2014-04-14T16:36:41Z")
**Melchior** is just very sad because culture, tradition, and language around him are changing, and he just can’t seem to wrap his mind around it. This is just another one of those ‘damn kids with the loud hippety-hop music!’ – cane-shaking-old-man moments. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/591 "2014-04-14T16:41:38Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > **Melchior** , you’re correct that marriage is based on biological imperatives, but those biological imperatives are a lot more complicated than you realize. Yes, there’s a biological drive towards reproduction, but that’s not what leads to marriage. Dogs are driven to reproduce, too, but they don’t much care with whom. If a bitch is in heat, all the male dogs around her will attempt to mate with her, and she’ll accept whomever is first as her mate. Doesn’t matter if she’s mated with that dog before, or if she ordinarily gets along with him, or anything like that. Dogs reproduce without anything resembling marriage. > > Swans, now, they’re different. Swans will take their time choosing their mates, and once chosen will tend to mate with the same partner repeatedly, over the course of their whole life. It’s a behavior called “pair bonding”, and swans feel a biological drive to engage in it. They don’t, of course, hold any special ceremonies about it, nor describe themselves with a special word once they’ve bonded, but that’s just because swans are neither sapient nor language-using. But they do, in so far as they’re mentally able, engage in something similar to marriage. > > Humans, now, well, it turns out that we’re sort of like swans. We, too, feel a biological drive to find one particular partner, and stay with that same partner for life. And because we are sapient and lingual, we have invented ceremonies and words concerning our pair-bonding process: That’s what marriage is. > > But here’s the thing: Most humans, and most swans, feel this biological drive to pair-bond with a member of the opposite sex. A few humans (and swans), however, have a slight variant on that biological drive. Those individuals instead have a biological drive to pair-bond with members of the same sex. So far as we can tell, though, all other aspects of this pair-bonding instinct work basically the same way as they do for the majority. So given that it appears to be the same biological drive accounting for both, why shouldn’t we use the same ceremonies and the same word for both? Because they are different, as in “not the same”. Things that are not the same should be distinguished semantically. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/592 "2014-04-14T16:43:47Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > This is an opportunity to agree that union between same-sex adults, with the same legal and societal benefits of marriage, is a good thing. and I am going to pass, because I disagree. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/593 "2014-04-14T16:44:30Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > Things that are not the same should be distinguished semantically. A chihuahua and a great dane are not the same. And yet we call them both “dog”. What, in your opinion, determines the meaning of a word? ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/594 "2014-04-14T16:48:09Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > and I am going to pass, because I disagree. Supporting data for **Procrustus**. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/595 "2014-04-14T16:48:35Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > and I am going to pass, because I disagree. So - its not about the word “marriage” , then, is it? Which is opposite of what you said earlier in the thread. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/596 "2014-04-14T16:48:41Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > Marriage is a way of establishing responsible reproduction and making people accountable for their children. That is part of the intent. This is why the word ‘bastard’ exists: it’s a name for children born outside of marriage. What does the word “bastard” mean, though? It was coined, or so I understand, as a term that had legal meaning, and legal force that limited the rights a child could hope to have recognized by civic authority. These days, I generally only hear it used as an epithet, and not even one that is expected to be taken literally. Is there today any practical point in assigning the name to a child born outside of marriage? ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/597 "2014-04-14T16:54:41Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > What does the word “bastard” mean, though? It was coined, or so I understand, as a term that had legal meaning, and legal force that limited the rights a child could hope to have recognized by civic authority. These days, I generally only hear it used as an epithet, and not even one that is expected to be taken literally. > > Is there today any practical point in assigning the name to a child born outside of marriage? Yes, of course. He was not ‘legitimate’ and had limited or no claim to his parent’s property. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/598 "2014-04-14T16:57:12Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > Yes, of course. He was not ‘legitimate’ and had limited or no claim to his parent’s property. You’re just down in that hole, digging with a shovel, aren’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/599 "2014-04-14T16:58:40Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > You’re just down in that hole, digging with a shovel, aren’t you? Not responsive. Not an argument. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/600 "2014-04-14T17:00:05Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > Not responsive. Not an argument. So why have you ignored all the arguments I’ve made? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819.md?page=29) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819.md?page=31)