# Anti-SSM argument goes from stupid to... what the heck is this? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 10, 2014, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819 "2014-04-10T19:53:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 31
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/601 "2014-04-14T17:00:25Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > Yes, of course. He was not ‘legitimate’ and had limited or no claim to his parent’s property. So, you realize this is not how probate works in modern society, right? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/602 "2014-04-14T17:01:21Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > He also seems motivated by a reprehensible world view > [@Melchior](#): > > ad hominem > > reporting you As to “ad hominem,” doesn’t that term usually refer to a fallacy about an _argument_? **Procrustus** ’s statement appears to be phrased as though he intended it as an _observation_. Correct me if I’m wrong,\*but I don’t think that observations are subject to logical fallacy criticisms. As to “reporting you,” I know that the moderators do not as a general rule respond privately to the person who reported a post, but just in case they do in your case, _please_ share with us the feedback you receive. 🙂 \*By “correct me if I’m wrong,” I mean, “tell me why the belief I stated is incorrect.” Don’t just say “you’re wrong”; that would be _notifying_ me, and that’s not what I’m asking for. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/603 "2014-04-14T17:04:29Z")
> [@simster](#): > > So, you realize this is not how probate works in modern society, right? I was answering a question, not giving a law lecture… ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/604 "2014-04-14T17:05:46Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > What does the word “bastard” mean, though? It was coined, or so I understand, as a term that had legal meaning, and legal force that limited the rights a child could hope to have recognized by civic authority. These days, I generally only hear it used as an epithet, and not even one that is expected to be taken literally. > > Is there today any practical point in assigning the name to a child born outside of marriage? > [@Melchior](#): > > Yes, of course. He was not ‘legitimate’ and had limited or no claim to his parent’s property. Did you miss that I asked specifically if there is _ **TODAY** _ any practical point in…_&c_? No big deal if you did, but I would appreciate you giving your response in light of that very important word being taken into account. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/605 "2014-04-14T17:06:36Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > I was answering a question, not giving a law lecture… Right, so the usage of the term bastard has changed over time- from a legal status descriptor to not being used that way… right? ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/606 "2014-04-14T17:10:55Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > Right, so the usage of the term bastard has changed over time- from a legal status descriptor to not being used that way… right? I have no idea, and it has nothing to do with the ‘meaning’ of the word. The same with ‘computer’. It means ‘that which computes’. People use the word ‘computer’ to refer to ‘digital electronic computers’, but that is a sort of abbreviation for the sake of convenience. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/607 "2014-04-14T17:18:34Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > I have no idea, and it has nothing to do with the ‘meaning’ of the word. What does determine the meaning of a word? ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/608 "2014-04-14T17:18:43Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > I have no idea, and it has nothing to do with the ‘meaning’ of the word. The same with ‘computer’. It means ‘that which computes’. People use the word ‘computer’ to refer to ‘digital electronic computers’, but that is a sort of abbreviation for the sake of convenience. Fallacy of [moving the goalposts](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_the_goalposts). ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/609 "2014-04-14T17:21:12Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > I have no idea, and it has nothing to do with the ‘meaning’ of the word. The same with ‘computer’. It means ‘that which computes’. People use the word ‘computer’ to refer to ‘digital electronic computers’, but that is a sort of abbreviation for the sake of convenience. You can’t even keep your own arguments straight. ETA: Marriage: It means (strict definition here) the formal union of a man and a woman, typically recognized by law, by which they become husband and wife. People use the word “marriage” to refer to any union between consenting adults that confers the same legal protections. How is what I wrote any different than what you wrote about computers? (And do not say that it’s a definition that’s been forced from extremist so it doesn’t count. That’s simply not true.) ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/610 "2014-04-14T17:21:56Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > What does determine the meaning of a word? The same with people who call photography ‘art’. Photography is not and cannot be ‘art’, any more than a fossil can be ‘art’. People can and in fact do use words incorrectly. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/611 "2014-04-14T17:23:21Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > The same with people who call photography ‘art’. Photography is not and cannot be ‘art’, and more than a fossil can be ‘art’. Fallacy of being wrong. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/612 "2014-04-14T17:25:59Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > The same with people who call photography ‘art’. Photography is not and cannot be ‘art’, any more than a fossil can be ‘art’. People can and in fact do use words incorrectly. And what determines the correct usage of a word? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/613 "2014-04-14T17:26:20Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > The same with people who call photography ‘art’. Photography is not and cannot be ‘art’, any more than a fossil can be ‘art’. People can and in fact do use words incorrectly. > [@TroutMan](#): > > Fallacy of being wrong. Actually it’s the fallacy of wow, you seriously think you’re the only person who is allowed to have an opinion on what anything is. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/614 "2014-04-14T17:26:39Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > The same with people who call photography ‘art’. Photography is not and cannot be ‘art’, any more than a fossil can be ‘art’. People can and in fact do use words incorrectly. What a crazy assertion. Photography is influenced by human intervention to create a unique aesthetic that a fossil doesn’t have. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/615 "2014-04-14T17:26:50Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > What does the word “bastard” mean, though? I can see it now. Melchior gets a warning for insults and uses as his defense “But it’s not an insult. It’s a legal status. You don’t get to change the meaning of words.” ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/616 "2014-04-14T17:27:59Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > I have no idea, and it has nothing to do with the ‘meaning’ of the word. The same with ‘computer’. It means ‘that which computes’. People use the word ‘computer’ to refer to ‘digital electronic computers’, but that is a sort of abbreviation for the sake of convenience. This is false – the word “computer” has changed in usage, and therefore in meaning. Now it means “digital electronic computer”, among other things. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/617 "2014-04-14T17:28:18Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Actually it’s the fallacy of wow, you seriously think you’re the only person who is allowed to have an opinion on what anything is. Reading his posts in other threads, yes, I do believe he thinks that. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/618 "2014-04-14T17:28:24Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > What a crazy assertion. Photography is influenced by human intervention to create a unique aesthetic that a fossil doesn’t have. Just yesterday I was looking at a translation in which the translator referred to ‘honor’ being ‘depleted’. We don’t use ‘depleted’ that way. Honor cannot be ‘depleted’. Here is the passage: The truth is: not out of, but inside compassion — I mean what customarily and misleadingly passes for compassion — we are thinking about ourselves, no longer consciously, to be sure, but very powerfully so unconsciously, just as, when our foot slips out from under us, we initiate, without any immediate consciousness of the action, the most purposive counter movements and in the process plainly make use of our entire faculty of understanding. The other person’s accident insults us, it threatens to deliver us into the hands of our own impotence, perhaps even our cowardice were we not to offer our help. Or the accident per se involves a depletion of our honor in the eyes of others or of ourselves. Here is how I translated it: The truth is that in our pity — I mean that which we erroneously call ‘pity’ — we no longer think consciously of ourselves, but do so quite unconsciously, just as, when we lose our footing and start slipping, we instinctively make the proper movements to regain our balance, and in doing so obviously employ all of our faculties. A mishap to another represents an affront to us; it would reveal in us impotence, or perhaps cowardice, if we were to do nothing to help him, or bring humiliation and dishonour upon us. Here is the original: Die Wahrheit ist: im Mitleid — ich meine in dem, was irreführender Weise gewöhnlich Mitleid genannt zu werden pflegt, — denken wir zwar nicht mehr bewusst an uns, aber sehr stark unbewusst, wie wenn wir beim Ausgleiten eines Fusses, für uns jetzt unbewusst, die zweckmässigsten Gegenbewegungen machen und dabei ersichtlich allen unseren Verstand gebrauchen. Der Unfall des Andern beleidigt uns, er würde uns unserer Ohnmacht, vielleicht unserer Feigheit überführen, wenn wir ihm nicht Abhülfe brächten. Oder er bringt schon an sich eine Verringerung unsrer Ehre vor Anderen oder vor uns selber mit sich. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/619 "2014-04-14T17:29:51Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This is false – the word “computer” has changed in usage, and therefore in meaning. Now it means “digital electronic computer”, among other things. That is short-hand. The \*word \*‘computer’ \*means \*‘that which computes’. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/620 "2014-04-14T17:30:02Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > Just yesterday I was looking at a translation in which the translator referred to ‘honor’ being ‘depleted’. We don’t use ‘depleted’ that way. Honor cannot be ‘depleted’. > > Here is the passage: > > The truth is: not out of, but inside compassion — I mean what customarily and misleadingly passes for compassion — we are thinking about ourselves, no longer consciously, to be sure, but very powerfully so unconsciously, just as, when our foot slips out from under us, we initiate, without any immediate consciousness of the action, the most purposive counter movements and in the process plainly make use of our entire faculty of understanding. The other person’s accident insults us, it threatens to deliver us into the hands of our own impotence, perhaps even our cowardice were we not to offer our help. Or the accident per se involves a depletion of our honor in the eyes of others or of ourselves. > > Here is how I translated it: > > The truth is that in our pity — I mean that which we erroneously call ‘pity’ — we no longer think consciously of ourselves, but do so quite unconsciously, just as, when we lose our footing and start slipping, we instinctively make the proper movements to regain our balance, and in doing so obviously employ all of our faculties. A mishap to another represents an affront to us; it would reveal in us impotence, or perhaps cowardice, if we were to do nothing to help him, or bring humiliation and dishonour upon us. > > Here is the original: > > Die Wahrheit ist: im Mitleid — ich meine in dem, was irreführender Weise gewöhnlich Mitleid genannt zu werden pflegt, — denken wir zwar nicht mehr bewusst an uns, aber sehr stark unbewusst, wie wenn wir beim Ausgleiten eines Fusses, für uns jetzt unbewusst, die zweckmässigsten Gegenbewegungen machen und dabei ersichtlich allen unseren Verstand gebrauchen. Der Unfall des Andern beleidigt uns, er würde uns unserer Ohnmacht, vielleicht unserer Feigheit überführen, wenn wir ihm nicht Abhülfe brächten. Oder er bringt schon an sich eine Verringerung unsrer Ehre vor Anderen oder vor uns selber mit sich. I think he broke. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819.md?page=30) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819.md?page=32)