# Anti-SSM argument goes from stupid to... what the heck is this? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 10, 2014, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819 "2014-04-10T19:53:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 42
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/821 "2014-04-15T06:33:59Z")
Won’t somebody think of the pro formas? They’re so helpless and cute. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/822 "2014-04-15T07:23:02Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > Not an argument. Actually, there was one in there: Of course, the thing about the cargo cults was that in the end, the difference was between getting the end result and not getting the end result. With the SSM folks, the difference is between getting the end result and getting something which is indistinguishable from the end result. Or can you provide any functional difference between a same-sex marriage and a heterosexual marriage that would interest those involved? I mean, even if you wouldn’t call it a marriage, to them, it is. And it confers all the same legal benefits, and societal benefits, and the like. So… how is this comparable to the cargo cults, where the meaningful difference is instantly apparent (the planes never landed)? You just ignored it. See, I personally could care less about whether or not any given same-sex marriage is a “cargo cult” marriage, because the result is functionally exactly the same as a normal marriage, with the sole difference that in the case of male-male marriages, they cannot have children without outside help (and female-female if you want to count IVF as “outside help”). But given how many marriages never have kids anyways, how many marriages there are between sterile people or septuagenarian-plus-es, that’s not really a significant difference. In short: society has defined same-sex marriage into existence, and it is for all intents and purposes a real marriage. Call it fake all you want; the distinction between a fake marriage and a real marriage in this case does not matter to anyone involved. …Why did I just spend 5 minutes typing this? > [@Melchior](#): > > Thanks. I am a professional translator. So, you know German? 9 years and most of my high school education. Hey, you found a profession where being a hopeless, irritating pedant is actually an advantage. Good for you! ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 9:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/823 "2014-04-15T09:11:19Z")
**Melchior** is just a (metaphorical or literal) old man who can’t handle the changes in culture and language, so he’s in stubborn denial. Kind of sad, really – because there’s nothing he can do about it except whine. So he shakes his cane and yells at those damn kids… but those kids don’t care what he does, or what he says, or what he thinks. The world, the culture, and the language is changing, and there’s nothing **Melchior** can do about it. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/824 "2014-04-15T11:44:49Z")
> [@Antinor01](#): > > According to Merriam Websters - > > done or existing as something that is usual or required but that has little true meaning or importance. In accounting class, we referred to pro-forma statements as “lets pretend” statements. And if Melichor wants to believe that all marriages that can’t result in bio kids are pro-forma - my grandparents who married in their 50s after their original spouses (one of them my bio grandmother) died would have had a pro-forma marriage by that definition. But it was recognized by the state as a marriage, they were married in a sacramental Catholic ceremony, so the Catholic church saw it as a marriage, and of course, all their friends and relatives saw it as a marriage. My grandmother raised my aunt and uncle, who were still teenagers. And my grandparents were happier in their second marriage than either of them had been in their first. It lasted 30 years until my grandfather died. If the state recognizes the marriage, and the family and friends recognize the marriage, it really doesn’t matter if Melichor doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![42fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/4/b487fb/32.png) [@42fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/42fish)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/825 "2014-04-15T11:47:47Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Plus same-sex marriage has been legal in Canada for almost a decade with no ill-effects to society or children that I’m aware of. Clearly you’re unaware of **magellan01** ’s argument that the unspeakably\* horrible effects of gay marriage won’t show up until N years have passed, where N is “undefined, but longer than gay marriage has already existed in any jurisdiction.” \*Literally unspeakable, judging from his constant refusal to tell any Dopers what those effects will be, no matter how often he’s asked. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/826 "2014-04-15T13:11:13Z")
I’d also like to point out that the ‘definition of the word marriage’ is a settled issue. All of the major dictionaries recognize, in their latest editions, that the definition has changed (to be precise, it has expanded) to include same-sex unions. This is done, over, and it doesn’t matter that **Melchior** does not accept it – he doesn’t have to. The dictionaries do, and English speakers (in general) do. Ten years ago, the pro-SSM side was arguing that we could and should change/expand the definition of the word ‘marriage’ to include same-sex unions. That argument, and that issue, is settled – we won. Usage of the word has changed. Now we are arguing that legal marriage should be expanded to include same-sex unions. We are winning on that issue too – many states have already legalized same-sex marriage, whether by judicial action, legislative action, or by popular vote. But the word-definition argument is done. Over. Finished. **Melchior** is just extremely, stubbornly wrong on that issue. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/827 "2014-04-15T13:25:07Z")
And you are all extremely, stubbornly wrong to keep engaging him. You can’t beat a bot. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/828 "2014-04-15T13:37:54Z")
> [@Antinor01](#): > > The dictionary says that means something of little importance. It means as a formality, which is not the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/829 "2014-04-15T13:40:51Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > And you are all extremely, stubbornly wrong to keep engaging him. You can’t beat a bot. Sure you can. You just have to be a mod. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/830 "2014-04-15T13:42:05Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > In accounting class, we referred to pro-forma statements as “lets pretend” statements. > > And if Melichor wants to believe that all marriages that can’t result in bio kids are pro-forma - my grandparents who married in their 50s after their original spouses (one of them my bio grandmother) died would have had a pro-forma marriage by that definition. But it was recognized by the state as a marriage, they were married in a sacramental Catholic ceremony, so the Catholic church saw it as a marriage, and of course, all their friends and relatives saw it as a marriage. My grandmother raised my aunt and uncle, who were still teenagers. And my grandparents were happier in their second marriage than either of them had been in their first. It lasted 30 years until my grandfather died. > > If the state recognizes the marriage, and the family and friends recognize the marriage, it really doesn’t matter if Melichor doesn’t. I didn’t say that. My point is that marriage is fundamentally about breeding. Anyone remember Henry VIII? Six wives? Ring a bell? [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry\_VIII\_of\_England](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_VIII_of_England) ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/831 "2014-04-15T13:47:08Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’d also like to point out that the ‘definition of the word marriage’ is a settled issue. All of the major dictionaries recognize, in their latest editions, that the definition has changed (to be precise, it has expanded) to include same-sex unions. Even 100 years ago, one definition was “Any intimate or close union.” What does Spongemel think happens in the privacy of their bedrooms? Pattycake? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/832 "2014-04-15T13:48:59Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > Professors? (Makes sign of cross with fingers even though atheist). Not an argument. Why am I not surprised? None of that fancy college learnin’ for you, no sir! You’re an ill-educated boob, completely ignorant of decades of scholarship that directly applies to a field you clearly care about. You lack even a rudimentary grasp of the foundations of linguistics, and yet feel qualified to make sweeping proclamations about how language works. You’re a coward as well. Instead of just coming right out and honestly stating your opposition to gay marriage , you hide behind semantic quibbles. The only good thing to come out of this thread is that it has exposed who you really are. You’re done here. This board doesn’t like bigots or cranks and you’re both. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/833 "2014-04-15T13:51:26Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > I didn’t say that. My point is that marriage is fundamentally about breeding. Anyone remember Henry VIII? Six wives? Ring a bell? I certainly suspect you’ve had your bell rung a few too many times. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/834 "2014-04-15T13:53:40Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > I didn’t say that. **My point is that marriage is fundamentally about breeding.** Anyone remember Henry VIII? Six wives? Ring a bell? > > [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry\_VIII\_of\_England](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_VIII_of_England) So the last 31 years with my wife don’t count? So what about two lesbians who undergo IVF? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/835 "2014-04-15T13:58:29Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > And you are all extremely, stubbornly wrong to keep engaging him. You can’t beat a bot. To each his/her own… some people derive great enjoyment from arguing with the ignorant, or just with those that disagree. It’s not always about changing their mind. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/836 "2014-04-15T14:04:27Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > I didn’t say that. My point is that marriage is fundamentally about breeding. Anyone remember Henry VIII? Six wives? Ring a bell? > > [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry\_VIII\_of\_England](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_VIII_of_England) Most of us aren’t kings of England. And despite Henry having at least one illegitimate son during his time, that did not make Elizabeth Blount his wife. Would have been far easier for everyone if it did. (Though the kid did die as a teenager - Henry had lousy luck with children - it wasn’t that his marriage to Catherine didn’t produce any - its that the only survivor was a girl - so would you extend your point to marriage is only about producing male children who survive to adulthood? That would be historical obscure). But if you are looking for a historical precedence, ancient Sparta recognized same sex marriages, 2nd century Rome had legally binding same sex marriages and the Sioux and Cheyenne recognized gay marriages. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/837 "2014-04-15T14:04:43Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > Not an argument. > > Why am I not surprised? None of that fancy college learnin’ for you, no sir! > > You’re an ill-educated boob, completely ignorant of decades of scholarship that directly applies to a field you clearly care about. You lack even a rudimentary grasp of the foundations of linguistics, and yet feel qualified to make sweeping proclamations about how language works. You’re a coward as well. Instead of just coming right out and honestly stating your opposition to gay marriage , you hide behind semantic quibbles. > > The only good thing to come out of this thread is that it has exposed who you really are. You’re done here. This board doesn’t like bigots or cranks and you’re both. I have a college degree and deal with professors all the time. That’s \*why \*I despise them. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/838 "2014-04-15T14:07:21Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > Not an argument. > > Why am I not surprised? None of that fancy college learnin’ for you, no sir! > > You’re an ill-educated boob, completely ignorant of decades of scholarship that directly applies to a field you clearly care about. You lack even a rudimentary grasp of the foundations of linguistics, and yet feel qualified to make sweeping proclamations about how language works. You’re a coward as well. Instead of just coming right out and honestly stating your opposition to gay marriage , you hide behind semantic quibbles. > > The only good thing to come out of this thread is that it has exposed who you really are. You’re done here. This board doesn’t like bigots or cranks and you’re both. In case it isn’t clear, I am not ‘opposed to’ ‘gay marriage’. My objection is that it is impossible, because the notion of marriage excludes the possibility a priori. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/839 "2014-04-15T14:09:16Z")
No, it doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/840 "2014-04-15T14:09:28Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > I have a college degree and deal with professors all the time. That’s \*why \*I despise them. A college degree, you don’t say? I’m guessing they found your arguments unpersuasive and that’s why you despise them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819.md?page=41) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819.md?page=43)