# Anti-SSM argument goes from stupid to... what the heck is this?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [April 10, 2014, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819 "2014-04-10T19:53:49Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 9
### Author:  [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)
#### Post date: [April 11, 2014, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/161 "2014-04-11T15:31:44Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#):
>
> I’ll be sure to let my wife know that she is now my property, has no rights other than those I see fit to grant, and that her parents owe me a dowry. After all, we can’t go around redefining marriage.
>
> I’m sure she’ll take the news well when I point out that it’s supported by 40,000 years of human history (and hopefully she won’t point out that recorded history only goes back about 6,000 years.)
It’s a fad that will soon pass.
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### Author:  [@Double\_Foolscap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Double_Foolscap)
#### Post date: [April 11, 2014, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/162 "2014-04-11T15:34:42Z")
I thought that about digital watches.
Edit: way to dodge the divorce issue, though. Kudos. It’s almost like you have come to the conclusion that gay marriage is wrong and tried to shore it up with bullshit.
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### Author:  [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)
#### Post date: [April 11, 2014, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/163 "2014-04-11T15:44:20Z")
> [@Melchior](#):
>
> If you want to allow same-sex ‘marriages’ you will have to allow multiple-spouse ‘marriages’ because there is no more support for the one than for the other.
If you want to allow opposite sex marriages, you have to allow same sex marriages, because there is no more support for the one than for the other.
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### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [April 11, 2014, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/164 "2014-04-11T15:48:50Z")
> [@Melchior](#):
>
> Says who?
People, whose actions (collectively) define what customs and traditions are, and whose use of language (collectively) defines the meanings of words. And people are deciding that marriage can apply to same-sex couples, and that the tradition and custom of marriage is (and should be) changing.
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### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [April 11, 2014, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/165 "2014-04-11T15:53:04Z")
For those who think there’s any chance this will be worthwhile:
[http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=716210&page=2](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=716210&page=2)
> **[The real problem with gay people is simply a lack of neighborliness ... and...](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=717451)**
>
> It’s true! Unneighborly gays demanding to be served at retailers who are offended by their existence. How pushy!
> **[Why should I care about gay marriage?](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=716234)**
>
> I’ll post this in GD because I imagine it will end up there anyway. I am a heterosexual, divorced male\*. I presently have literally not one care in the world whether same-sex marriage is legalized or not. Don’t have a dog in the fight, so to speak....
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### Author:  [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)
#### Post date: [April 11, 2014, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/166 "2014-04-11T15:54:04Z")
> [@Melchior](#):
>
> It’s a fad that will soon pass.
… which part? Allowing married women to have rights? Recorded history?
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### Author:  [@Blackberry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackberry)
#### Post date: [April 11, 2014, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/167 "2014-04-11T15:57:40Z")
> [@Blackberry](#):
>
> Here in WA it was forced on us by me and the other 1,659,914 people who voted for it 🙂
Come on, man, me and 1,659,914 of my closest friends are still waiting for your response. About the lunatic activist judges forcing it on the masses. Remember?
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### Author:  [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)
#### Post date: [April 11, 2014, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/168 "2014-04-11T15:58:01Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#):
>
> People, whose actions (collectively) define what customs and traditions are, and whose use of language (collectively) defines the meanings of words. And people are deciding that marriage can apply to same-sex couples, and that the tradition and custom of marriage is (and should be) changing.
This is false. It is only a small minority who have asked for this, and courts have bought their argument.
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### Author:  [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)
#### Post date: [April 11, 2014, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/169 "2014-04-11T15:58:13Z")
Gays and lesbians _are_ a small minority. That doesn’t make their rights any less important - and the majority of the public is now in favor of SSM anyway.
> [@](#):
>
> Come on, man, me and 1,659,914 of my closest friends are still waiting for your response. About the lunatic activist judges forcing it on the masses. Remember?
I can’t believe you let yourselves shove SSM down your own throats like that.
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### Author:  [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)
#### Post date: [April 11, 2014, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/170 "2014-04-11T16:00:07Z")
> [@Melchior](#):
>
> This is false. It is only a small minority who have asked for this, and courts have bought their argument.
Yeah, and those uppity blacks should have stayed in the back of the bus too…
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### Author:  [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)
#### Post date: [April 11, 2014, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/171 "2014-04-11T16:01:06Z")
> [@bup](#):
>
> **jsgoddess** , you owe \*\*Melchior \*\*some flowers. This thread would have died in about 10 posts if not for him.
I have much to be grateful for, I’m sure.
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### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [April 11, 2014, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/172 "2014-04-11T16:05:33Z")
> [@Melchior](#):
>
> This is false. It is only a small minority who have asked for this, and courts have bought their argument.
Factually incorrect – a large majority of Americans [(almost 2 to 1)](http://www.politico.com/story/2014/03/gay-marriage-support-poll-104272.html) support same-sex marriage. In addition, several non-judicial bodies, like legislatures and popular referenda, have confirmed the legality of gay marriage in various states.
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### Author:  [@Blackberry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackberry)
#### Post date: [April 11, 2014, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/173 "2014-04-11T16:12:51Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#):
>
> I can’t believe you let yourselves shove SSM down your own throats like that.
What can I say? We try to be outraged but we don’t have much of a gag reflex left at this point. Just go with it.
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### Author:  [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)
#### Post date: [April 11, 2014, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/174 "2014-04-11T16:18:41Z")
> [@Melchior](#):
>
> Love has nothing to do with it. Examine the history of marriage. Most marriages historically have been arranged. Look it up.
Are you arguing against _all_ freely chosen marriages of love now? Or only when the spouses have similar genitalia? Would same sex _arranged_ marriages be okay with you?
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### Author:  [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)
#### Post date: [April 11, 2014, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/175 "2014-04-11T16:24:39Z")
> [@DrCube](#):
>
> Are you arguing against _all_ freely chosen marriages of love now? Or only when the spouses have similar genitalia? Would same sex _arranged_ marriages be okay with you?
The point of marriage was to produce children, and did not have anything to do with ‘romantic love’. In fact, betrothal was a prelude to marriage, and only if a successful pregnancy occurred did marriage follow. No point in allowing that other family to have your money and worldly goods if there are none of your own offspring involved. This same biological imperative is reflected in the practice of killing of cubs by newly dominant male lions.
See:
[http://www.medievalsociety.org/2008/03/13/sex-and-marriage-in-the-mid-to-late-medieval-times/](http://www.medievalsociety.org/2008/03/13/sex-and-marriage-in-the-mid-to-late-medieval-times/)
“As I’ve stated before in previous articles, fertility was a very important aspect of a woman, some men took the women to bed to ensure she would produce children before they agreed to marry them.”
Since same-sex unions are inherently infertile…(you can follow the logic)
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### Author:  [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)
#### Post date: [April 11, 2014, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/176 "2014-04-11T16:33:10Z")
> [@Melchior](#):
>
> Yes, I am, and that’s why I mentioned it. If you want to allow same-sex ‘marriages’ you will have to allow multiple-spouse ‘marriages’ because there is no more support for the one than for the other.
Why is that a problem?
Mind you, I’m talking about _freely consenting adults_, not child marriage or bride selling. If more than two adults want to enter into a living arrangement together why is that a problem? How does it cause anyone outside their household a problem? Why does the notion frighten you?
I disagree with your assertion of what is supported, I think there is _far_ more support for SSM than multiple marriage, but if I’m wrong on that so what?
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### Author:  [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)
#### Post date: [April 11, 2014, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/177 "2014-04-11T16:34:43Z")
> [@Melchior](#):
>
> The point of marriage was to produce children
I know an easier way.
> [@](#):
>
> , and did not have anything to do with ‘romantic love’. In fact, betrothal was a prelude to marriage, and only if a successful pregnancy occurred did marriage follow. No point in allowing that other family to have your money and worldly goods if there are none of your own offspring involved. This same biological imperative is reflected in the practice of killing of cubs by newly dominant male lions.
>
> See:
>
> [http://www.medievalsociety.org/2008/03/13/sex-and-marriage-in-the-mid-to-late-medieval-times/](http://www.medievalsociety.org/2008/03/13/sex-and-marriage-in-the-mid-to-late-medieval-times/)
>
> “As I’ve stated before in previous articles, fertility was a very important aspect of a woman, some men took the women to bed to ensure she would produce children before they agreed to marry them.”
>
> Since same-sex unions are inherently infertile…(you can follow the logic)
So is this the system you’re advocating now? No marriages between infertile people, and the bride must be pregnant first as proof? Do old people get to stay married, or does menopause mandate divorce?
Why are we basing our legal system on medieval customs again? Should we all go find a lord and manor to pledge our allegiance to?
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### Author:  [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)
#### Post date: [April 11, 2014, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/178 "2014-04-11T16:40:21Z")
> [@DrCube](#):
>
> I know an easier way.
>
> So is this the system you’re advocating now? No marriages between infertile people, and the bride must be pregnant first as proof? Do old people get to stay married, or does menopause mandate divorce?
>
> Why are we basing our legal system on medieval customs again? Should we all go find a lord and manor to pledge our allegiance to?
Marriage is a traditional institution that was established for certain purposes:
To produce heirs (fertility was important and infertile women could be dismissed if they could not bear children)
Along with that, fidelity was important to ensure that the children were in fact the husband’s and not the scoundrel’s down the street.
Once you understand how and why marriage was established, you will quickly grasp that the idea of same-sex-marriage is absurd.
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### Author:  [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)
#### Post date: [April 11, 2014, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/179 "2014-04-11T16:41:27Z")
> [@Broomstick](#):
>
> Why is that a problem?
>
> Mind you, I’m talking about _freely consenting adults_, not child marriage or bride selling. If more than two adults want to enter into a living arrangement together why is that a problem? How does it cause anyone outside their household a problem? Why does the notion frighten you?
>
> I disagree with your assertion of what is supported, I think there is _far_ more support for SSM than multiple marriage, but if I’m wrong on that so what?
What do you mean by ‘support’?
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### Author:  [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)
#### Post date: [April 11, 2014, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-ssm-argument-goes-from-stupid-to-what-the-heck-is-this/685819/180 "2014-04-11T16:41:37Z")
> [@FriarTed](#):
>
> Well, if one doesn’t want to provide flowers, bake a wedding cake, or photograph the ceremony, participating in SSM may very well be forced upon one.
Need I point out the obvious? Baking the wedding cake is not participating in the marriage, regardless of whether it’s a same-sex or opposite-sex marriage.
It is true that anti-discrimination laws limit the freedom of bigots in order to increase the freedom of normal people. But that’s a trade-off I can live with. Reducing the freedom of bigots to practice their bigotry might even be regarded as a net societal good in its own right.
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