# Anti-TSA Activist claims she was groped during security search. What's the goal? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 28, 2013, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-tsa-activist-claims-she-was-groped-during-security-search-whats-the-goal/659553 "2013-05-28T16:32:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2013, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-tsa-activist-claims-she-was-groped-during-security-search-whats-the-goal/659553/81 "2013-05-31T04:03:29Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The Israelis start screening before people park their car. In what way, exactly? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2013, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-tsa-activist-claims-she-was-groped-during-security-search-whats-the-goal/659553/82 "2013-05-31T11:43:34Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The TSA screens for boarding passengers. Everybody in the terminal and parking lot are soft targets. The Israelis start screening as you enter the airport. All the airports I go to have police outside the security area, and TSA is responsible for screening passengers and baggage. To the extent that US security outside of the terminal is great/fair/awful, that’s the responsibility of local authorities. With the exception of the no-fly list, which seems to be responsibility of some other agency, too. I do find it funny that you complain how terrible TSA is, and yet you complain that they aren’t in charge of the parking lot. Reminds me of the Catskills joke about the two women at dinner: “This restaurant is terrible. The food is almost inedable.” “I know, and the portions are so small, too.” ---
**Author:** ![Tripler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripler/32/21807_2.png) [@Tripler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tripler)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2013, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-tsa-activist-claims-she-was-groped-during-security-search-whats-the-goal/659553/83 "2013-06-04T14:50:26Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > \*\*Theft.\*\*Our own **Tripler** (who is a bomb disposal tech in the military) lost some of his tools to the TSA. I remember that. $450 worth of tools too. I emailed the “Ombudsman” and never got a response. Then mailed a _snail mail_ letter to the then-write in address, and never got a response either. I am not impressed with the TSA. It’s just a public layer [sub]facade[/sub] of security to deter the half-hearted. I know of several instances at the SLC airport where things got through, and yet, the particular screeners were only “re-trained” or given a slap on the wrist at best. Tripler Better word: I am “underwhelmed” by their acceptance of responsibility. ---
**Author:** ![GomiBoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@GomiBoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GomiBoy)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2013, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-tsa-activist-claims-she-was-groped-during-security-search-whats-the-goal/659553/84 "2013-06-04T15:34:40Z")
The TSA is organised incompetence at it’s very best. That plus the over-inflated flight attendant opinion that they’re the ‘front line in the war on Terror’ has taken any joy I once had of airline travel well out of the picture. I’d do almost anything to avoid flying anymore, just because it’s so damn unpleasant, and especially flying to the US. Main incident that gets my goat - on the TSA web page’s ‘greatest hits’ last year, was the incident where a soldier in Iraq, returning home on emergency leave straight from the war zone, passed through 1 military transport flight to Dover Delaware, then 2 commercial flights to his destination on the West Coast, then 1 more commercial flight coming back to Dover, before being caught with a package of C4 he had inadvertently left in his backpack. In spite of the thefts, the sexual assaults, the power trips - this is their core responsibility, and they failed so badly in doing it (3 out of 4 commercial flights before they found this accident), and then brag about it as one of their greatest hits? Let’s look at some other incidents: [ul] [li]Underwear bomber? Nope, stopped by passengers when he was trying to inject the chemical detonator; it didn’t work and burned him instead[/li][li]Shoe bomber? Nope, stopped by passengers when he tried lighting the fuse on his shoe bomb.[/li][li]Fed-ex planes with bombs hidden in printer cartridges? Nope, stopped by foreign intelligence gathering, but not before TSA let the planes take off from Memphis.[/li][/ul] Sure, the TSA might be competent at feeling up granny and 6 year olds selected for ‘random’ scans, ensuring that the hot chicks in the queue get the extra treatment, and making sure anybody with a lot of cash on them will be selected for ‘special’ treatment, but actually stopping terrorist or criminal activity? Not so much. And we lose so much - ports are less secure, flying is more expensive and takes more time, everything is less and less pleasant for everyone and we gain nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2013, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-tsa-activist-claims-she-was-groped-during-security-search-whats-the-goal/659553/85 "2013-06-04T18:06:00Z")
> [@GomiBoy](#): > > Main incident that gets my goat - on the TSA web page’s ‘greatest hits’ last year, was the incident where a soldier in Iraq, returning home on emergency leave straight from the war zone, passed through 1 military transport flight to Dover Delaware, then 2 commercial flights to his destination on the West Coast, then 1 more commercial flight coming back to Dover, before being caught with a package of C4 he had inadvertently left in his backpack. In spite of the thefts, the sexual assaults, the power trips - this is their core responsibility, and they failed so badly in doing it (3 out of 4 commercial flights before they found this accident), and then brag about it as one of their greatest hits? Well in their defense the C4 was disguised as itself so they were fooled by the obviousness of it. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2013, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-tsa-activist-claims-she-was-groped-during-security-search-whats-the-goal/659553/86 "2013-06-04T21:20:49Z")
> [@GomiBoy](#): > > Let’s look at some other incidents: > [ul] > [li]Underwear bomber? Nope, stopped by passengers when he was trying to inject the chemical detonator; it didn’t work and burned him instead[/li][li]Shoe bomber? Nope, stopped by passengers when he tried lighting the fuse on his shoe bomb.[/li][/ul] Both of those wannabe bombs were taken on flights from Europe to the US. The TSA wasn’t involved (was it even active in December 2001?). > [@GomiBoy](#): > > [ul] > Fed-ex planes with bombs hidden in printer cartridges? Nope, stopped by foreign intelligence gathering, but not before TSA let the planes take off from Memphis. > [/ul] Do you have a cite for this incident occurring? The only printer cartridge bombing plot I can find was to bomb planes from Yemen to the US, and the bombs never made it to the US. ---
**Author:** ![GomiBoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@GomiBoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GomiBoy)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2013, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-tsa-activist-claims-she-was-groped-during-security-search-whats-the-goal/659553/87 "2013-06-05T10:44:10Z")
> [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > Both of those wannabe bombs were taken on flights from Europe to the US. The TSA wasn’t involved (was it even active in December 2001?). Yes, TSA was active in 2001; they were formed in Nov 2001 IIRC. The point is, the TSA used both of those incidents to drive increased security and increased responsibility for themselves (as well as coincidentally increasing their budget), including demanding flights to the US from foreign countries had enhanced security and banning liquids on flights above a certain quantity. Not that the then or current TSA scanning procedure would have caught either the shoe bomber or the underwear bomber, but hey, why use facts to justify your massive and growing budget and removal of liberty from citizens? I flew to the US just after the shoebomber guy from the UK. We had matches, lighters, etc… removed from us by TSA security _in the UK_ at Heathrow who set up additional security checkpoints inside the terminal’s secure area just for US-bound flights - this was after we’d already been through full security check to even get to that point. I guess the UK security checkpoints weren’t good enough; apparently the Troubles and being the 2nd highest target for Islamic terrorism didn’t give the UK enough experience and they needed some help from the TSA. > [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > Do you have a cite for this incident occurring? The only printer cartridge bombing plot I can find was to bomb planes from Yemen to the US, and the bombs never made it to the US. Turns out you’re right; they never got to the US. I thought for sure they’d made it to Mephis and were processed through the massive FedEx facility there. Another point - do you know that Michael Chertoff, former head of Homeland Security, now shills for 1 of the 2 main companies making pervo-scanners? I wonder why they thought those were such a brilliant idea… ---
**Author:** ![Mdcastle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/958977/32.png) [@Mdcastle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mdcastle)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2013, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-tsa-activist-claims-she-was-groped-during-security-search-whats-the-goal/659553/88 "2013-06-05T13:47:21Z")
If you watch for suspicious individuals nowadays you get accused of racism. But the Israelis do that and it’s effective. ---
**Author:** ![CJJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecc23a/32.png) [@CJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CJJ)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2013, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-tsa-activist-claims-she-was-groped-during-security-search-whats-the-goal/659553/89 "2013-06-05T13:56:00Z")
Regarding Israeli security, I was in Tel Aviv on business some years ago, and decided to take a personal day to fly El-Al to Cairo and see the Pyramids. Work went late, so I arrived at Ben-Gurion within an hour of flight time–a young male with only a knapsack for luggage, rushing and nervous he would miss his chance to see Egypt for a day-trip. An Israeli security person interviewed me alone in the gate area carefully in English. She asked a simple series of questions regarding my flight and purpose, plus additional background questions (they obviously knew I was an American, the asked about my life back in the US). What I noticed was the questions were haphazard, and she would often jump back and ask a question she had asked earlier. The whole interview took about 5 minutes. On the return trip, I went thru the same process–this time with plenty of others in line–and it seemed clear what I went thru was a standard process for everyone, i.e. there weren’t singling me out because I had arrived late or my itinerary was suspicious. Whenever I’ve thought about it, I thought that was a far better screening process than the anonymous baggage-check we usually go thru at US airports. The interviewer obviously wasn’t interested in the particular answers I gave, she was gauging my demeanor and seeing if I gave different answers to the same questions. That’s a lot different than the asinine “Did you pack you own bags?” questions US ticketing agents ask, which are clearly for legal purposes only. I agree with the poster earlier who called US airport security “security theatre”; moving to an Israeli-style system shouldn’t be that hard to implement at US airports, and would probably be far more effective. ---
**Author:** ![GomiBoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@GomiBoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GomiBoy)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2013, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-tsa-activist-claims-she-was-groped-during-security-search-whats-the-goal/659553/90 "2013-06-05T14:15:02Z")
> [@CJJ](#): > > … moving to an Israeli-style system shouldn’t be that hard to implement at US airports, and would probably be far more effective. Except it takes brains, good training, and motivated people to do this. None of which TSA staff seem to have in any minimally acceptable quantity, much less abundance. ---
**Author:** ![Death\_of\_Rats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a6a055/32.png) [@Death\_of\_Rats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Death_of_Rats)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2013, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-tsa-activist-claims-she-was-groped-during-security-search-whats-the-goal/659553/91 "2013-06-05T14:46:58Z")
And yet, _every single terrorist attack_ you have used to castigate them has turned out to have not invovled the TSA in any meaningful way. ---
**Author:** ![GomiBoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@GomiBoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GomiBoy)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2013, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-tsa-activist-claims-she-was-groped-during-security-search-whats-the-goal/659553/92 "2013-06-05T14:58:30Z")
> [@Death\_of\_Rats](#): > > And yet, _every single terrorist attack_ you have used to castigate them has turned out to have not invovled the TSA in any meaningful way. Yes, the TSA failing to catch a block of C4 on 3 out of 4 commercial flights IN THE USA!!! was kinda their fault. And yet, every single incident I mentioned, including the ones stopped by passengers and / or foreign intelligence gathering activities, that in no possible way could have been or were stopped by the TSA, were used by the TSA to justify enhanced searches, additional budget, and further erosion of the travelling public’s civil liberties. Added to the rank incompetence, criminal activity, power trips by TSA staff, and lecherous BS that has been so widely reported, and you wonder why I think the TSA are less than good ROI? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2013, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-tsa-activist-claims-she-was-groped-during-security-search-whats-the-goal/659553/93 "2013-06-05T15:15:47Z")
> [@Mdcastle](#): > > If you watch for suspicious individuals nowadays you get accused of racism. But the Israelis do that and it’s effective. This is a myth. In fact, such a policy essentially allowed an attack at Ben Gurion airport(then Lod airport) when some guerillas from the PFLP entered Israel, walked past the supposedly crack airport security into the waiting area, pulled out some machine guns and then killed 26 people, including a large number of Puerto Rican pilgrims. They were successful because the Israeli security assumed some nerdy looking Japanese violinists couldn’t possibly be up to no good or that the violin cases would be carrying something other than violins. Later on the Israelis would run into similar problems when their border security stupidly decided to focus on males entering Israel in response to suicide bombings and the Palestinian guerilla groups started using female suicide bombers on their martyrdom operations(to use their terminology). Beyond that, this whole idea that some 21-year-old Israeli kid just done with his army hitch earning money to pay for his trip to India is going to be able to magically spot a guerilla/terrorist is something of a myth up there with the idea that had they allowed a bunch of the people in the Aurora movie theatre to carry guns they’d have been safe. ---
**Author:** ![sciurophobic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@sciurophobic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sciurophobic)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2013, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-tsa-activist-claims-she-was-groped-during-security-search-whats-the-goal/659553/94 "2013-06-05T18:37:49Z")
> [@CJJ](#): > > That’s a lot different than the asinine “Did you pack you own bags?” questions US ticketing agents ask, which are clearly for legal purposes only. They haven’t asked that question in years, I think even before 9/11. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2013, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-tsa-activist-claims-she-was-groped-during-security-search-whats-the-goal/659553/95 "2013-06-05T20:53:44Z")
> [@sciurophobic](#): > > They haven’t asked that question in years, I think even before 9/11. Then why was I asked it during a flight this past April? ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-tsa-activist-claims-she-was-groped-during-security-search-whats-the-goal/659553/96 "2013-06-06T05:55:17Z")
> [@Mdcastle](#): > > If you watch for suspicious individuals nowadays you get accused of racism. But the Israelis do that and it’s effective. Feel free to provide evidence. > [@CJJ](#): > > An Israeli security person interviewed me alone in the gate area carefully in English. She asked a simple series of questions regarding my flight and purpose, plus additional background questions (they obviously knew I was an American, the asked about my life back in the US). What I noticed was the questions were haphazard, and she would often jump back and ask a question she had asked earlier. The whole interview took about 5 minutes. On the return trip, I went thru the same process–this time with plenty of others in line–and it seemed clear what I went thru was a standard process for everyone, i.e. there weren’t singling me out because I had arrived late or my itinerary was suspicious. Wow. That would be _extremely_ invasive for a US domestic flight. I’ll stick to a metal detector or body scanner, thanks. > [@sciurophobic](#): > > They haven’t asked that question in years, I think even before 9/11. I think I’ve been asked it every time I’ve flown since. Sometimes it’s just a page full of legalese on the self-check-in machines, IIRC. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-tsa-activist-claims-she-was-groped-during-security-search-whats-the-goal/659553/97 "2013-06-06T06:09:08Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > This is a myth. In fact, such a policy essentially allowed an attack at Ben Gurion airport(then Lod airport) when some guerillas from the PFLP entered Israel, walked past the supposedly crack airport security into the waiting area, pulled out some machine guns and then killed 26 people, including a large number of Puerto Rican pilgrims. > > They were successful because the Israeli security assumed some nerdy looking Japanese violinists couldn’t possibly be up to no good or that the violin cases would be carrying something other than violins. > > Later on the Israelis would run into similar problems when their border security stupidly decided to focus on males entering Israel in response to suicide bombings and the Palestinian guerilla groups started using female suicide bombers on their martyrdom operations(to use their terminology). > > Beyond that, this whole idea that some 21-year-old Israeli kid just done with his army hitch earning money to pay for his trip to India is going to be able to magically spot a guerilla/terrorist is something of a myth up there with the idea that had they allowed a bunch of the people in the Aurora movie theatre to carry guns they’d have been safe. to start with that was 41 years ago and it was in inbound flight, they were getting off an inbound flight. This was already pointed out. Why do you keep bringing it up? ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-tsa-activist-claims-she-was-groped-during-security-search-whats-the-goal/659553/98 "2013-06-06T06:27:31Z")
> [@GomiBoy](#): > > Yes, TSA was active in 2001; they were formed in Nov 2001 IIRC. But were they actually screening passengers in 2001? Going from nothing to TSA-size agency takes time. ETA: [The FAA history page says](http://www.faa.gov/about/history/brief_history/) TSA took over security in February 2002. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-tsa-activist-claims-she-was-groped-during-security-search-whats-the-goal/659553.md?page=4)