# anti-vacciantion nutjobs **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 17, 2010, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vacciantion-nutjobs/550526 "2010-08-17T14:25:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![pope\_hentai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ee59a6/32.png) [@pope\_hentai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pope_hentai)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2010, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vacciantion-nutjobs/550526/1 "2010-08-17T14:25:46Z")
hopefully i put this in the proper forum… a friend of mine on facebook is spamming some stupid anti-vax crap from this website : [Vaccine Choice Canada Vaccination: Basic Concerns - Vaccine Choice Canada](http://vran.org/about-vaccines/vaccine-essentials/vaccination-the-basics/) if i remember correctly recent studies have shown that all that information is BS, but i can’t seem to find them at the moment. I also cant seem to find anything about the doctors quoted on the site. Can anyone help me out, or am i wrong on this? cites either way please. Especially since the mentioned website doesn’t list any. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2010, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vacciantion-nutjobs/550526/2 "2010-08-17T16:25:30Z")
Just going to bump it for you since you haven’t gotten many responses yet. My advice would be to have the mods move it to GQ and also do some searches on the board…this subject has been done to death here, and there are tons of old threads giving details. As for the claims in your link, they are pretty much completely horseshit. A lot of them are deceptive, and have to do with the fact that in the past many things were diagnosed as something else than they are today…thus there is ‘more’ ADD, autism, food allergies, etc, than there was in the past, where ‘more’ is defined as the people who had those things 10, 20, 50 or 100 years ago weren’t diagnosed as having them, and instead they were diagnosed as having something else…or weren’t diagnose at all. The claim that vaccines kill more people than they save is the worst kind of malicious lie, since people reading that and following that advise are actually putting themselves at risk. And, sadly, a lot of this anti-vac horseshit has trickled down to many 3rd world countries, where the local populace has been fed this distorted propaganda, with the results being more deaths and sickness than would otherwise be the case. Anyway, if you have the mods move this to GQ I think you’ll get plenty of answers. Also, don’t forget to do some searches on past threads, since none of this is remotely new, and all of it has been previously covered and debunked. -XT ---
**Author:** ![EvilTOJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee59a6/32.png) [@EvilTOJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EvilTOJ)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2010, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vacciantion-nutjobs/550526/3 "2010-08-17T17:07:51Z")
[Jenny Mccarthy](http://www.jennymccarthybodycount.com) is always a good place to start when it comes to nutjobs. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2010, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vacciantion-nutjobs/550526/4 "2010-08-17T17:28:58Z")
And other kinds of jobs, as well. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2010, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vacciantion-nutjobs/550526/5 "2010-08-17T17:30:25Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > And other kinds of jobs, as well. Not until she gets all her shots, bucky. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2010, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vacciantion-nutjobs/550526/6 "2010-08-17T17:39:49Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Not until she gets all her shots, bucky. You can’t vaccinate against crazy. Or cure stupid. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2010, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vacciantion-nutjobs/550526/7 "2010-08-17T17:40:19Z")
The problem with the website in question is that just about everything the writer asserts is wrong. Sigh. Explaining why would take a lot of posts and time. I’ll give you a single example. > [@](#): > > [Vaccination Risk Awareness Network Inc. (VRAN)](http://vran.org/autism/) > While numerous American autism groups connect vaccines to autism, Canada remains mute regarding the association. Independent research has provided significant evidence that the mercury-containing preservative, thimerosal; MMR vaccine; and the colossal number of vaccines injected within a very short time span, all contribute to the total burden of autism. This paragraph makes me want to take the writer who wrote it and just him smack a few times because it is so wrong and so full of disgusting scare mongering. By “independent research” the author clearly means anti-vax groups with a vested interest in suing pharmaceutical companies over what is clearly a genetic disease. For example both sets of a pair of twins are more likely to have autism: > [@](#): > > [Increased Rate of Twins among Affected Sibling Pairs with Autism - PMC](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC447617/) > > The proportion of twins among autistic sib pairs (18%, 30/166) was significantly higher than the expected twinning rate per sib pair (2.4%). Thimerosol is a form of mercury but it is ethyl mercury rather than methyl mercury and no harmful effects have been demonstrated: > [@](#): > > [Thimerosal and Autism: Reviewing the Evidence | Quackwatch](http://www.autism-watch.org/rsch/thimerosal.shtml) > > The last study, published this past year from Montréal, looked at almost 30,000 children and evaluated the relationship between the development of pervasive developmental disorder and changes in vaccines, thimerosal exposure as well as MMR. The cumulative exposure to thimerosal increased and decreased over time. By 1996, it was out of the vaccines. There were a total of 182 children with pervasive developmental disorders. Looking at average thimerosal in the vaccines and diagnoses of autism by birth cohort, the same trend of increases in cases over time can be seen, even in those infants who were not exposed to thimerosal. This seems to be the most compelling evidence of no association. If thimerosal is responsible for autism, as it is removed from vaccines, cases of autism should decline, but that is not happening. Thimerosal has been removed from vaccines as a precautionary measure yet autism rates continue to rise: > [@](#): > > [Autism: Symptoms, Causes, Types, and Testing](http://www.webmd.com/brain/autism/news/20080107/thimerosal-down-but-autism-rising) > > Jan. 7, 2008 – Autism rates continue to go up despite removal of thimerosal, which contains a form of mercury, from nearly all child vaccines, California data show. > > The finding adds to a growing body of evidence against the " thimerosal hypothesis." The hypothesis holds that vaccines using thimerosal as a preservative – given to children or their mothers – causes autism. > > As a precautionary measure, by March 2001 thimerosal was removed (except for trace amounts) from all recommended infant vaccines. The only childhood vaccines that still contain more than trace amounts of thimerosal are multiple-dose vials of some flu vaccines. > > An early look at data from California suggested that removal of thimerosal might have led to a decline in autism. But now an updated look at the data by the California Department of Public Health shows that there was no such decline. The symptoms of mercury poisoning and autism don’t overlap very much. > [@](#): > > [http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/111/3/674](http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/111/3/674) > > In mercury poisoning, the characteristic motor findings are ataxia and dysarthria (Table 1).5,6 These signs, along with tremor, muscle pains, and weakness, are noted on relatively high-dose exposure, acute or chronic. In 3 Romanian children accidentally exposed to ethyl mercury in a fungicide, these same symptoms were prominent.7 The outcome of fetal methyl mercury poisoning in severe form also included spasticity.8 In contrast, in autism, the only common motor manifestations are repetitive behaviors (stereotypies) such as flapping, circling, or rocking. Persons with Asperger syndrome may be clumsy, and hypotonia has been noted in some infants with autism; the frequency of clumsiness and hypotonia in autism spectrum disorders is not established. No other motor findings are common in autism, and indeed the presence of ataxia or dysarthria in a child whose behavior has autistic features should lead to careful medical evaluation for an alternative or additional diagnosis. The reason children are being diagnosed with autism in greater numbers is because the diagnostic criteria have changed. Children who were previously diagnosed as mentally retarded or learning disabled are now considered autistic: > [@](#): > > [http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/117/4/1028](http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/117/4/1028) > > RESULTS. The average administrative prevalence of autism among children increased from 0.6 to 3.1 per 1000 from 1994 to 2003. By 2003, only 17 states had a special education prevalence of autism that was within the range of recent epidemiological estimates. During the same period, the prevalence of mental retardation and learning disabilities declined by 2.8 and 8.3 per 1000, respectively. Higher autism prevalence was significantly associated with corresponding declines in the prevalence of mental retardation and learning disabilities. And that’s just a single idiotic paragraph. If I have time later I’ll attempt to examine more the of stupid over there. Hopefully some well informed posters over here ( **dseid** , **jackmanii** , **Kolga** ) will have time to drop by. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2010, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vacciantion-nutjobs/550526/8 "2010-08-17T18:46:56Z")
In the second paragraph, they talk about problems in children’s health that have happened concurrent with increases in vaccines. They give no evidence whatsoever that any of those problems are connected to vaccines. That’s a basic logical fallacy, the post hoc fallacy. There’s some totally irrelevant stuff about fever suppressants and antibiotics. Whether those are safe or not has _nothing_ to do with whether vaccines are safe. [It’s like trying to buttress your argument about the price of mangoes in Sumatra with data about the temperature of spit in Wichita.](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/214/is-exposure-to-cosmic-rays-during-cross-country-flight-dangerous) They even talk about childhood diseases being helpful for development. Anyone who believes that should visit a cemetery that was in use before the mid-20th century. The diseases weren’t so good for the development of the kids in all the childrens’ graves they’ll see there. Or maybe they should talk to someone who remembers what it was like to have things like polio epidemics. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vacciantion-nutjobs/550526/9 "2010-08-19T16:29:45Z")
The website linked to in the OP is the usual antivax conglomeration of false information, correlation-equals-causation fallacy and fearmongering. In addition to the takedowns by **LavenderBlue** and others, I’ll mention that the site includes the typical nonsense about vaccine “toxins” (including _gelatin_ - give me a break), while showing no realization that infectious diseases help make you sick through the action of real toxins that when you’re infected can be present in amounts sufficient to cause serious illness or death. The nostalgia for the good old days when we lived in harmony with nature and disease is also revolting. Say Mom, remember the wonderful days of yore when lots of kids died in diptheria epidemics, or parents panicked every summer over the prospect of polio paralyzing or killing their children? We can return to those glorious times, just don’t vaccinate! To counter the nonsensical fearmongering, there are good, reliable sources of information out there from the likes of the CDC, [vaccineinformation.org](http://vaccineinformation.org) and especially from the [Vaccine Information Center](http://www.chop.edu/service/vaccine-education-center/home.html) of the Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia, which debunks antivax myths and has lots of helpful info on immunization. ---
**Author:** ![Troy\_McClure\_SF](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troy_mcclure_sf/32/4150_2.png) [@Troy\_McClure\_SF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troy_McClure_SF)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vacciantion-nutjobs/550526/10 "2010-08-19T16:55:58Z")
How about [a bunch of dead people](http://www.cdph.ca.gov/Pages/NR10-041.aspx)? Note that that is from June; more have died since then. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vacciantion-nutjobs/550526/11 "2010-08-19T16:59:33Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > And other kinds of jobs, as well. See, it’s funny because she’s a WOMAN! Ha ha ha! Women suck! And they suck dick too! ---
**Author:** ![Staale\_Nordlie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Staale\_Nordlie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Staale_Nordlie)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vacciantion-nutjobs/550526/12 "2010-08-19T17:09:28Z")
Penn and Teller: Part 1: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aky-sRri-NQ](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aky-sRri-NQ) Part 2: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gnxci5tezZY](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gnxci5tezZY) ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vacciantion-nutjobs/550526/13 "2010-08-19T17:31:04Z")
> [@Staale\_Nordlie](#): > > Penn and Teller: > > Part 1: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aky-sRri-NQ](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aky-sRri-NQ) > Part 2: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gnxci5tezZY](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gnxci5tezZY) Beat me to it. Even if people reading this are not interested in watching 30 minutes of video I encourage you to watch the first 1.5 minutes. Pretty much sums it up well. ETA: It is stuff like this that challenges my fervor for free speech. In the case of the link in the OP, Jenny McCarthy and others they are actively hurting people via terrible misinformation. Some kids somewhere have died and/or needlessly suffered because of their brand of bullshit. They should be sued into oblivion for that if not outright locked up. Hideous. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vacciantion-nutjobs/550526/14 "2010-08-19T18:13:31Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > > > And other kinds of jobs, as well. > > See, it’s funny because she’s a WOMAN! Ha ha ha! Women suck! And they suck dick too! I don’t want to tell you your business, **Bryan** , but this second banana is killing your act. ---
**Author:** ![74westy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/74westy/32/3950_2.png) [@74westy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/74westy)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vacciantion-nutjobs/550526/15 "2010-08-19T18:46:44Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > > > And other kinds of jobs, as well. > > See, it’s funny because she’s a WOMAN! Ha ha ha! Women suck! And they suck dick too! Especially when they’re porn stars. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vacciantion-nutjobs/550526/16 "2010-08-19T19:52:10Z")
> [@74westy](#): > > > [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > > > See, it’s funny because she’s a WOMAN! Ha ha ha! Women suck! And they suck dick too! > > Especially when they’re porn stars. This is so fascinating. When someone mentions, say, Catherine MacKinnon on the Dope, straight male Dopers rush to condemn her, painstakingly claiming that performing in porn is a free choice and does not subjugate women at all. But then, in your remarks above, we learn that it’s ok to make blowjob jokes about Jenny McCarthy, ostensibly because she once was in _Playboy_. So, let’s settle it once and for all: are the Catherine MacKinnons of the world right, that porn is inherently exploitative and subjugates women? Or is your observation about Jenny McCarthy’s job irrelevant? ---
**Author:** ![moejoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@moejoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moejoe)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vacciantion-nutjobs/550526/17 "2010-08-19T20:57:36Z")
[quote=“Whack-a-Mole, post:13, topic:550526”] > [@Staale\_Nordlie](#): > > Some kids somewhere have died and/or needlessly suffered because of their brand of bullshit. um, cite? ---
**Author:** ![Lubricious\_Integument](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/82dd89/32.png) [@Lubricious\_Integument](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lubricious_Integument)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vacciantion-nutjobs/550526/18 "2010-08-19T21:17:16Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > > > And other kinds of jobs, as well. > > See, it’s funny because she’s a WOMAN! Ha ha ha! Women suck! And they suck dick too! Huh. I thought he meant boob job. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vacciantion-nutjobs/550526/19 "2010-08-19T21:21:00Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > > [@74westy](#): > > > > Especially when they’re porn stars. > > This is so fascinating. When someone mentions, say, Catherine MacKinnon on the Dope, straight male Dopers rush to condemn her, painstakingly claiming that performing in porn is a free choice and does not subjugate women at all. > > But then, in your remarks above, we learn that it’s ok to make blowjob jokes about Jenny McCarthy, ostensibly because she once was in _Playboy_. > > So, let’s settle it once and for all: are the Catherine MacKinnons of the world right, that porn is inherently exploitative and subjugates women? Or is your observation about Jenny McCarthy’s job irrelevant? That would be a pretty big hijack. I can’t speak for them but my read is it is a snarky way to point out why is it we should listen to a Playboy Playmate versus, say, the Center for Disease Control? Playmate seems poor bona fides to make proclamations on the evils of vaccination. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vacciantion-nutjobs/550526/20 "2010-08-19T21:24:12Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > > [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > > > This is so fascinating. When someone mentions, say, Catherine MacKinnon on the Dope, straight male Dopers rush to condemn her, painstakingly claiming that performing in porn is a free choice and does not subjugate women at all. > > > > But then, in your remarks above, we learn that it’s ok to make blowjob jokes about Jenny McCarthy, ostensibly because she once was in _Playboy_. > > > > So, let’s settle it once and for all: are the Catherine MacKinnons of the world right, that porn is inherently exploitative and subjugates women? Or is your observation about Jenny McCarthy’s job irrelevant? > > That would be a pretty big hijack. > > I can’t speak for them but my read is it is a snarky way to point out why is it we should listen to a Playboy Playmate versus, say, the Center for Disease Control? > > Playmate seems poor bona fides to make proclamations on the evils of vaccination. And yet nobody ever makes a joke about Jim Carrey eating pussy in these conversations. Why do you suppose that is? Does Mr. Carrey have an epidemiology credential that I’m not aware of? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vacciantion-nutjobs/550526.md?page=2)