# Anti-vaxxers are ignorant scumbags that kill children **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 1, 2016, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626 "2016-09-01T01:59:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2016, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/181 "2016-12-15T03:38:00Z")
…but also freaking out over this bill in CA: [http://www.modernalternativehealth.com/2016/12/10/californias-sb-18-parental-rights-gone/](http://www.modernalternativehealth.com/2016/12/10/californias-sb-18-parental-rights-gone/) I see nothing in the text of the bill (embedded in article) saying that kids would be yanked out of their homes for not getting vaxed or whatever. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2017, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/182 "2017-03-23T12:32:22Z")
Thanks in part to the efforts of antivaxers, Romania has experienced thousands of new measles cases, and 17 dead. Italy is also seeing an upsurge in measles. > **[Measles outbreak in Romania has killed 17 children](https://medicalxpress.com/news/2017-03-measles-outbreak-romania-children.html)** > > A measles outbreak in Romania has killed 17 children and infected thousands more since September due to poverty and an anti-vaccination movement, local media reported Saturday. > **[Italy's Five Star Movement blamed for surge in measles cases](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/23/italys-five-star-movement-blamed-for-surge-in-measles-cases)** > > Italian health official makes accusation against populist party, which proposed anti-vaccination law in 2015 ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2017, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/183 "2017-03-23T12:40:25Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Thanks in part to the efforts of antivaxers, Romania has experienced thousands of new measles cases, and 17 dead. > > Italy is also seeing an upsurge in measles. > > [Measles outbreak in Romania has killed 17 children](https://medicalxpress.com/news/2017-03-measles-outbreak-romania-children.html) > [Italy's Five Star Movement blamed for surge in measles cases | Italy | The Guardian](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/23/italys-five-star-movement-blamed-for-surge-in-measles-cases) Shilling for Big Pharma again, aren’t you? What you are ignoring is that _none_ of those 17 are ever going to get autism. How about that, Dr. Smartypants? If you do respond, make sure to speak up - I have hearing loss in one ear from measles as a child, because I wasn’t vaccinated (the vaccine wasn’t available). But it’s wholesome, natural, organic hearing loss! And I don’t have autism! Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2017, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/184 "2017-03-23T12:43:30Z")
You’re running up against Poe’s Law there. Bet someone takes you seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2017, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/185 "2017-03-23T12:52:03Z")
As long as I don’t run up against Rule 34, I’m golden. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Patx2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/73ab20/32.png) [@Patx2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patx2)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2017, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/186 "2017-03-23T12:52:36Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > I spend a fair amount of time on a board with a lot of anti-vaxxers. There is no argument you can make that they don’t have a an answer for. An answer that’s wrong or illogical but that they’ll cling to with a tenacity that is truly impressive. > > They believe virtually every diagnosis a child ever gets is a vaccine injury…it goes way beyond autism. Autoimmune problem? Vax injury. ADHD? Vax injury. Processing disorder? Vax injury. Speech delay? Vax injury. Motor skill issue? Vax injury. Chronic ear infections? Vax injury. Fell down and broke your arm? Vax injury (not kidding). They even have the mysterious “their eyes just look DULL” vax injury that I’ve certainly never noticed in my kids or any of their friends. > > They believe that vaccines don’t prevent disease, those diseases were going away anyway due to clean water and sanitation. Don’t bother pointing out that some of these diseases were prevalent long after those developments, and that those same diseases are being eradicated in places that don’t have reliably clean water and sanitation. They’ll handwave those facts away. > > They believe that herd immunity through vaccines is a myth and that herd immunity develops only with “true” immunity that people get through having the disease. Don’t try to argue that herd immunity is kinda worthless if everyone has to have the disease first in order for it to exist…they think disease-induced immunity is far superior for mysterious reasons. > > They believe that the smallest, worst-designed, least-robust studies are superior to all others if they show any kind of correlation between vaccines and a health problem, forget about asking about causation…that hasn’t been found because no one wants to find it, and the drug companies smooth over and sidestep any data that doesn’t show that vaccines are 100% safe. Don’t bother arguing that if something’s not statistically significant, then it’s not and that studies don’t look at individual cases for a reason. > > Seriously, there is nothing…_nothing_ that will convince these people. And it’s difficult because many of them have their own observational data that tells them that _their child_ was injured by a vaccine, so if you argue that it’s likely not the case you just look like an unsympathetic asshole. It’s an issue that thanks to Mr. Wakefield will always be with us. I guess you cannot argue with stupid. These people piss me off. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2017, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/187 "2017-03-23T15:39:05Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > As long as I don’t run up against Rule 34, I’m golden. > > Regards, > Shodan And yet you did, in this post… ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2017, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/188 "2017-03-23T15:48:12Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > What you are ignoring is that _none_ of those 17 are ever going to get autism. How about that, Dr. Smartypants? I posted the link about the Romanian measles outbreak in another online discussion, and promptly got a response from an antivaxer suggesting that many more deaths were due to vaccine-induced autism. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2017, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/189 "2017-03-23T16:27:30Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > The curriculum was Acupressure, Critical Alignment Yoga Therapy, Aromatherapy, _“Eating Live Foods,”_ Art Therapy, and Integrative Biological Dentistry. Most of it sounds silly, but the Klingon cuisine class might be entertaining. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2017, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/190 "2017-05-08T01:12:12Z")
> [@](#): > > **Anti-vaccine activists just sparked a U.S. state’s worst measles outbreak in decades** > After repeated visits from discredited activists, vaccination rates among Minnesota’s Somali-American community plummeted to just 42 per cent in 2014 — far below the threshold to prevent an outbreak. > > The young mother started getting advice early on from friends in the close-knit Somali immigrant community here. Don’t let your children get the vaccine for measles, mumps and rubella — it causes autism, they said. > > Suaado Salah listened. And this spring, her 3-year-old boy and 18-month-old girl contracted measles in Minnesota’s largest outbreak of the highly infectious and potentially deadly disease in nearly three decades. Her daughter, who had a rash, high fever and a cough, was hospitalized for four nights and needed intravenous fluids and oxygen. > > “I thought: ‘I’m in America. I thought I’m in a safe place and my kids will never get sick in that disease,’ ” said Salah, 26, who has lived in Minnesota for more than a decade. Growing up in Somalia, she’d had measles as a child. A sister died of the disease at age 3. > **[Anti-vaccine activists just sparked a U.S. state’s worst measles outbreak in...](https://www.thestar.com/news/world/anti-vaccine-activists-just-sparked-a-u-s-state-s-worst-measles-outbreak-in-decades/article_0597703c-0700-5c44-83af-cc6cf8bf3bf9.html)** > > After repeated visits from discredited activists, vaccination rates among Minnesota’s Somali-American community plummeted to just 42 per cent in 2014 — far below the threshold to prevent an outbreak. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2017, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/191 "2017-05-08T01:36:20Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > I posted the link about the Romanian measles outbreak in another online discussion, and promptly got a response from an antivaxer suggesting that many more deaths were due to vaccine-induced autism. :dubious: Right. We all know how deadly autism can be. ---
**Author:** ![Beren\_Erchamion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/90ced4/32.png) [@Beren\_Erchamion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beren_Erchamion)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2017, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/192 "2017-05-08T02:51:13Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > Because broadcasting anyone’s medical records like that would be a massive Federal offense. No. HIPAA imposes civil (and, in some cases, criminal) penalties if healthcare providers release information without consent except in a few narrowly-defined circumstances. But if you’re not covered by that prohibition, then if you are able to get your hands on that information you can more or less do what you please with it. There might be civil or criminal liability depending on the means by which you came across that information (e.g. if you hacked into the hospital to get it you’d probably be screwed), but if you obtained it via legitimate means (including if a covered health care worker illegally disclosed it to you–they’re fucked, but you’re in the clear since you’re _not_ covered by HIPAA) then you’re completely fine. That’s why, for example, Adam Schefter faced no legal liability for tweeting documents relating to Jason Pierre-Paul’s hand injury a couple of years ago–the information was (probably illegally) leaked to ESPN, but while the leaker may have been covered by HIPAA and so subject to penalties, ESPN wasn’t. It’s kind of like with publishing classified information: it’s illegal for someone with clearance for the information to share it without authorization, but if you don’t have a clearance and someone else (illegally or otherwise) shares it with you, you can publish it. Now, whether it’s a good idea to actually do so or not is, of course, a completely different matter. ---
**Author:** ![Beren\_Erchamion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/90ced4/32.png) [@Beren\_Erchamion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beren_Erchamion)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2017, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/193 "2017-05-08T03:02:02Z")
> [@vivalostwages](#): > > …but also freaking out over this bill in CA: > > [http://www.modernalternativehealth.com/2016/12/10/californias-sb-18-parental-rights-gone/](http://www.modernalternativehealth.com/2016/12/10/californias-sb-18-parental-rights-gone/) > > I see nothing in the text of the bill (embedded in article) saying that kids would be yanked out of their homes for not getting vaxed or whatever. Frankly, they should be. Absent a compelling medical reason, if a parent does not have their children vaccinated then they are demonstrating that they lack the judgment necessary to make good decisions about their childrens’ care and well-being. ---
**Author:** ![Beren\_Erchamion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/90ced4/32.png) [@Beren\_Erchamion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beren_Erchamion)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2017, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/194 "2017-05-08T03:04:10Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > While I do not believe children should be taken from parents, there are simple legal steps that should be taken: > > 1. Parents who choose not to immunize their children should not be allowed to send them to day cares, publically run camps, or schools with other children, be they public or accredited private. Fuck that shit. Children shouldn’t suffer in their social and intellectual development because they had the bad luck to be born to inept morons. It should be required that all children be vaccinated, period, absent an individualized professional medical determination to the contrary. ---
**Author:** ![Beren\_Erchamion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/90ced4/32.png) [@Beren\_Erchamion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beren_Erchamion)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2017, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/195 "2017-05-08T03:13:12Z")
> [@Vicsage](#): > > I’ll be attacked, but that’s OK. I believe in getting all the needed vaccines, but I don’t believe its healthy to get them all in a brief period of time. I think they should be spaces out more. What do you base this belief on? Actual evidence? Or because it just feels right? ---
**Author:** ![Beren\_Erchamion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/90ced4/32.png) [@Beren\_Erchamion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beren_Erchamion)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2017, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/196 "2017-05-08T03:15:50Z")
> [@Vicsage](#): > > There you go. I get my kids vaccinated. It takes 2 years longer. Not good enough. You’re right, it’s not good enough. Those two years are plenty of time for them to contract a deadly or debilitating disease that could have been prevented if they were vaccinated. > [@](#): > > Your way or the highway. Got to toe the line. Yes. You don’t get to endanger children’s safety and well-being just because you feel like it. You have duties to your children, including protecting them to the extent possible, and if you’re not willing to do that because of shit you just made up then you really shouldn’t be the one making decisions for those children. ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2017, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/197 "2017-05-08T04:08:19Z")
In the meantime, my aforementioned niece keeps posting more anti vax stuff on her timeline. > **[5 Things Everyone Needs To Know About Measles — Healthy Families for God](https://www.healthyfamiliesforgod.com/blog/2017/04/5-measles)** > > There is a lot of misinformation out there about measles. And really important information missing. Please read these four facts about measles before making judgments about the measles "outbreaks" and before deciding if the measles vaccine is right... So now it’s immoral and ungodly to get the kids vaccinated, and getting measles that’s a good thing because you can easily treat it with vitamins and it will build up your immunity if you get it too. I worry about her 3 year old and one year old. ---
**Author:** ![Beren\_Erchamion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/90ced4/32.png) [@Beren\_Erchamion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beren_Erchamion)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2017, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/198 "2017-05-08T04:13:22Z")
> [@vivalostwages](#): > > In the meantime, my aforementioned niece keeps posting more anti vax stuff on her timeline. > > [5 Things Everyone Needs To Know About Measles — Healthy Families for God](http://healthyfamiliesforgod.com/2017/04/5-measles/) > > So now it’s immoral and ungodly to get the kids vaccinated, and getting measles that’s a good thing because you can easily treat it with vitamins and it will build up your immunity if you get it too. > > I worry about her 3 year old and one year old. [![](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/Ytx1P7P4XXk/hqdefault.jpg "The office- Dwight's cholesterol") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ytx1P7P4XXk) ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2017, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/199 "2017-05-08T04:58:20Z")
> [@Dendarii\_Dame](#): > > Many, but not all. Check. I got mine before I was sixty. I don’t remember the price, but it was less than $100. > [@vivalostwages](#): > > I was under the impression that you couldn’t even get it at all till you turned 60, but I just discovered on WebMD that you can get it after age 50. > > We learn new things every day. You can get the vaccine earlier if you have actually had shingles, because you can get shingles more than once, but the vaccine will prevent further outbreaks. I don’t know how often the vaccine must be repeated. My husband had the shingles in his early 40, and he got the vaccine about six months after he recovered, and insurance paid for it. > [@vivalostwages](#): > > In the meantime, my aforementioned niece keeps posting more anti vax stuff on her timeline. > > So now it’s immoral and ungodly to get the kids vaccinated, and getting measles that’s a good thing because you can easily treat it with vitamins and it will build up your immunity if you get it too. > > I worry about her 3 year old and one year old. Worry more. Natural immunity is NOT better, at least when it comes to measles. There is evidence that after having measles (but not the vaccine), your immune system develops this bias, and ignores other pathogens while keeping up its vigil for measles. So having measles _weakens_ your immune system in regard to everything but measles. This lasts a couple of years. Worry about any one-year-old and below in a place with vaccine numbers below herd immunity, because less than one-year-olds can’t have the MMR yet. I actually had some dimbulb argue with me that measles aren’t that bad, and her evidence was the episode of _The Brady Bunch_ where all the kids got it. Right. They’re really gonna have the episode where Bobby gets encephalitis and dies. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2017, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/200 "2017-05-08T13:07:24Z")
> [@vivalostwages](#): > > In the meantime, my aforementioned niece keeps posting more anti vax stuff on her timeline. > > [5 Things Everyone Needs To Know About Measles — Healthy Families for God](http://healthyfamiliesforgod.com/2017/04/5-measles/) Just…_wow._ Those misleading stats (0 deaths from measles, 108 from vaccines) seem to be all the rage right now, [but…](http://www.newsweek.com/look-anti-vaxxers-monstrously-bad-measles-math-304078) that was 2004-2015. I can cherry-pick data, too. from [CDC](https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00056803.htm): > [@](#): > > In 1920, 469,924 measles cases were reported, and **7575 patients died…** I could add that in 1920, there were zero deaths from measles vaccines, too. Think about that! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626.md?page=11)