# Anti-vaxxers are ignorant scumbags that kill children **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 1, 2016, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626 "2016-09-01T01:59:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2018, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/361 "2018-12-04T08:45:13Z")
> [@larryh1012](#): > > where the fk is the vaccine for cancer? Gardasil. And much like most diseases, I hope you don’t breed. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2018, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/362 "2018-12-04T10:19:21Z")
> [@larryh1012](#): > > where the fk is the vaccine for cancer? Cancer isn’t one disease, it’s many diseases. That’s why there are different treatments for different cancers. Also, cancer is not usually caused by viruses. One that is strongly linked to viruses - cervical cancer - now actually DOES have a vaccine against the most common strains of said virus. On the flip side - if you don’t want lung cancer avoid tobacco smoke (or any sort of smoke), asbestos, and radon which are the biggest three risk factors. Vaccines don’t work against those risk factors, hence, no lung cancer vaccine. > [@](#): > > for aids? People are working on it. But since HIV hides out and screws up the immune system getting the immune system to recognize and fight it is a big more difficult than usual. > [@](#): > > for the common cold? what’s taking so long, junior? where are the vaccines that really make a difference? Ha-ha-ha - good one. The common cold is a minor illness unlike, say, smallpox. It’s annoying but it’s not a killer on the same level as a lot of other diseases so it’s a lower priority. The other problem is that the “common cold” is not just one virus - it’s caused by over two hundred viruses, so it’s actually not one disease, it’s many diseases with common symptoms. Developing a common cold vaccine is not developing one vaccine, it’s developing two hundred of them. It’s playing whack-a-mole. But hey, your camp is at a loss to explain why no one gets smallpox anymore, why the number of people dying of tetanus has plunged even though people still step on rusty nails and such, and why rabies is so much less common a cause of death in Europe and North America than it used to be even though wild animals still carry it, die from it, and bite people along the way from time to time. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2018, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/363 "2018-12-04T12:31:21Z")
> [@larryh1012](#): > > IS THERE SUCH A STUDY? Yes, it’s called the eradication of smallpox. [read this](https://ourworldindata.org/smallpox) There are other places to read about the eradication of this disease. A disease easily transmitted in close quarters, virulent and deadly. It’s gone. It was destroyed continent by continent by virtue of a concerted effort to vaccinate the population. Chicken pox outbreaks are all but unheard of now, because we vaccinate. Before the vaccine was available (1995), about 95% of kids got this disease. Now, hardly any kids get the disease. If you think it’s purely coincidence that the vaccine was introduced in 1995 and the incidence of the disease dropped 90+% in the years immediately thereafter, there’s nothing I can do for you, seek professional help. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2018, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/364 "2018-12-04T16:00:25Z")
> [@larryh1012](#): > > cite a study, that where one group is vaccinated against whatever e.g., measles, chickenpox, shingles etc, and the control is un-vaccinated. The study should be well designed, where in the control and the test subjects are similar etc, > now… cite the study where the vaccinated group after a period of time…e.g., 1 year 2 years etc, had no occurrences of the disease because of vaccination. but the control group contracted the disease at a normal rate. > IS THERE SUCH A STUDY? Um, perhaps you missed this? Post 330 > [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > Then how do you explain the results of [this](https://www.autismspeaks.org/science-news/no-mmr-autism-link-large-study-vaccinated-vs-unvaccinated-kids) [trial](https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2275444). … ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2018, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/365 "2018-12-04T20:27:18Z")
> [@larryh1012](#): > > cite a study, that where one group is vaccinated against whatever e.g., measles, chickenpox, shingles etc, and the control is un-vaccinated. The study should be well designed, where in the control and the test subjects are similar etc, > now… cite the study where the vaccinated group after a period of time…e.g., 1 year 2 years etc, had no occurrences of the disease because of vaccination. but the control group contracted the disease at a normal rate. > IS THERE SUCH A STUDY? Yeah, there was this guy, Edward Jenner who did one. You might not have heard about it though since it was really recent as these things seem to go with the anti-vaxx crowd. But I’m sure once his results finally percolate up the chain you guys could take a look, then maybe at some more recent stuff. His control group was rather large though, as at that time most (well, really none) of the population was vaccinated. And his methods were…well, not really medieval per se…but unorthodox by modern standards. Still, I think his results were fairly conclusive that there is more value in vaccinating folks than not. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2018, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/366 "2018-12-04T20:52:38Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > Um, perhaps you missed this? Post 330 Sorry I miss read your post and thought you wanted the study demonstrating no autism connection. As for the vaccines help prevent disease, those are done each time a new class of vaccine is developed. XT talked about the famous Polio vaccine which was very influential in the modern design of clinical trials. For a more modern example consider the [Ebola](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebola_vaccine#Clinical_trials_in_West_Africa), and [Zika](https://www.niaid.nih.gov/news-events/phase-2-zika-vaccine-trial-begins-us-central-and-south-america) vaccine trials are in progress. But the most obvious demonstration of the effectiveness of vaccines are in the recent outbreaks of Measles, chickenpox, whooping cough etc, which appear to occur almost exclusively among the unvaccinated population despite the fact that most of the population is vaccinated. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2018, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/367 "2018-12-04T21:04:38Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > XT talked about the famous Polio vaccine which was very influential in the modern design of clinical trials. No, XT was mentioning Jenner who was responsible for the small pocks vaccine, it was Salk who did the massive[polio vaccine trial](https://consumer.healthday.com/kids-health-information-23/kids-ailments-health-news-434/the-salk-polio-vaccine-greatest-public-health-experiment-in-history-691915.html). :smack: In order to help your understanding of the value of vaccines, I strongly recommend you talk to someone who was around 70 years old. They have a much different opinion on the value of vaccines, having seen first hand what it means not to have them. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2018, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/368 "2018-12-04T21:11:24Z")
Yeah, sorry about that…I was making what I thought was a pretty funny joke there. Yes, Edward Jenner did such a test…in the 1790’s if memory serves…for smallpox, using cowpox. He tested this live on a group of children by using the cowpox virus then directly and intentionally trying to infect them with smallpox (hey, it was the 1700’s…:smack:). Basically, I was being snarky there, since this is stuff that’s been tested and the utility of which has been understood for CENTURIES now. Asking for clinical trials and double blind testing of vaccine theory in general at this point is like asking for proof that gravity is real. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2018, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/369 "2018-12-05T01:37:44Z")
Know who supported vaccination (or actually variolation) for small pox? George Washington. The death rate for smallpox for American revolutionary troops was 17%. Washington, who had smallpox as a teenager, was able to oust the anti-vaxxhead of the military medical service, and had his troops variolated. (That involved infecting them with a milder form of smallpox.) The death rate fell to 1%. The revolution was saved. **larryh1012** , if you are a real American you’d support vaccination. Source: my wife’s just published book on the Vaccine Debate, from Greenwood ABC-CLIO. PM me for an Amazon link. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2018, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/370 "2018-12-05T02:34:15Z")
> [@larryh1012](#): > > cite a study, that where one group is vaccinated against whatever e.g., measles, chickenpox, shingles etc, and the control is un-vaccinated. The study should be well designed, where in the control and the test subjects are similar etc, > now… cite the study where the vaccinated group after a period of time…e.g., 1 year 2 years etc, had no occurrences of the disease because of vaccination. but the control group contracted the disease at a normal rate. > IS THERE SUCH A STUDY? Ah yes, the great retreating cry of the aniti-vaxxer: “Where is the big study of vaccinated vs un-vaccinated!!!” Yeah, you see, in any Scientific Study the Hypothesis must have at least some support observation to premise it. If you are going to claim that you need to study that throwing darts prevents cancer you better at least have some indication that frequent pub-gamers have lower incidence of cancer in the first place. There has been no indication of vaccines causing autism. Ergo, your entire premise of a study like this is unethical: barring using cases where vaccines were unavailable for case studies, denying people vaccines is condemning a number of children to death, crippling side effects, hospitalization, and other horrendous effects. Your premise is like saying food causes liver spots and we should starve one group and feed a control group. That’s unethical and lunatic in its approach. We’ve seen too many cases where medical ethics was thrown out the window and we learned almost nothing from it. Unit 731 in Imperial Japan and the Nazi experiments like these on unwilling human subjects - they learned nothing we didn’t know already (“gosh, pouring water on naked people in sub-zero weather causes them to freeze to death! Who knew!?”) and they are an abomination to science and ethics. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2018, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/371 "2018-12-05T02:40:01Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Do you know what AIDS means? A vaccine works through the immune system. > . There’s also the fact that that HIV mutates rapidly during the infection. It can hide from the immune system, or even lie dormant. Makes a vaccine very hard to develop. Not that they haven’t tried, but [31% efficacy isn’t a breakthrough needed.](https://www.healio.com/infectious-disease/hiv-aids/news/online/%7B4647f1cb-9017-4a95-bf12-fb12a332a512%7D/5-developments-in-hiv-vaccine-research-over-the-past-year). ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2018, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/372 "2018-12-05T02:45:18Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > In order to help your understanding of the value of vaccines, I strongly recommend you talk to someone who was around 70 years old. They have a much different opinion on the value of vaccines, having seen first hand what it means not to have them. Yeah, its especially fun when one of the anti-vaxxers tries to make excuses for why Polio just ‘went away’ on its own. Their usual goto claim is that ‘sanitation got better’. To quote one octogenarian after hearing that: “Do these people think we didn’t take baths in the 30s?” ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2018, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/373 "2018-12-05T16:04:50Z")
I think he flu the coop. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2018, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/374 "2018-12-05T16:17:00Z")
Good, maybe the scent of human shit and failure will fade soon. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2018, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/375 "2018-12-05T17:59:43Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Know who supported vaccination (or actually variolation) for small pox? George Washington. > The death rate for smallpox for American revolutionary troops was 17%. Washington, who had smallpox as a teenager, was able to oust the anti-vaxxhead of the military medical service, and had his troops variolated. (That involved infecting them with a milder form of smallpox.) The death rate fell to 1%. The revolution was saved. > > **larryh1012** , if you are a real American you’d support vaccination. > > Source: my wife’s just published book on the Vaccine Debate, from Greenwood ABC-CLIO. PM me for an Amazon link. I read about the procedure in a biography of John Quincy Adams, although I don’t think the book used the word ‘variolated’. Doctors would identify smallpox patients who had milder cases. String would be rubbed in one or more pustules. Then the string would be sewn under the skin of the person being variolated and left there until a reaction occurred. The hope was for a mild case of smallpox. Occasionally people would die, but you were more likely to survive a case contracted by variolation than a case contracted naturally. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2018, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/376 "2018-12-05T18:56:36Z")
> [@Yllaria](#): > > String would be rubbed in one or more pustules. Then the string would be sewn under the skin of the person being variolated and left there until a reaction occurred. :eek: Stone knives and bear skin rugs… ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2018, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/377 "2018-12-05T22:50:30Z")
> [@Ike\_Witt](#): > > :eek: Stone knives and bear skin rugs… And they had nothing they could do to protect them from Yellow Fever, which swept through seasonally. ---
**Author:** ![Dendarii\_Dame](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bbce88/32.png) [@Dendarii\_Dame](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dendarii_Dame)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/378 "2018-12-06T00:43:26Z")
> [@Yllaria](#): > > And they had nothing they could do to protect them from Yellow Fever, which swept through seasonally. IIRC, I read somewhere that slaves were far less likely to come down with Yellow Fever, which doctors thought meant people of African descent were less vulnerable. Turns out, they slept in bedrooms on higher floors, and mosquitoes didn’t fly up that high and bite them. Of course, people didn’t know this at the time. I can’t find a cite for this. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/379 "2018-12-06T02:27:49Z")
> [@Yllaria](#): > > I read about the procedure in a biography of John Quincy Adams, although I don’t think the book used the word ‘variolated’. Doctors would identify smallpox patients who had milder cases. String would be rubbed in one or more pustules. Then the string would be sewn under the skin of the person being variolated and left there until a reaction occurred. The hope was for a mild case of smallpox. Occasionally people would die, but you were more likely to survive a case contracted by variolation than a case contracted naturally. I was taught that cowpox was used as a vaccine after they realized that milkmaids (who worked around cows and thus were exposed to cowpox) almost never got smallpox. Was variolation something that was done previous to that? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/380 "2018-12-06T02:50:51Z")
> [@Dendarii\_Dame](#): > > IIRC, I read somewhere that slaves were far less likely to come down with Yellow Fever, which doctors thought meant people of African descent were less vulnerable. Turns out, they slept in bedrooms on higher floors, and mosquitoes didn’t fly up that high and bite them. > > Of course, people didn’t know this at the time. > > I can’t find a cite for this. It doesn’t sound likely, at least the bit about slaves sleeping on higher floors. Yes, a lot of grand houses did put the domestic staff into attic bedrooms, but on plantations the vast majority of enslaved workers slept in huts or cabins at ground level, and many of the domestic servants slept in or near their owners’ bedrooms. I very much doubt that there were large enough numbers of enslaved Africans sleeping on upper floors to make a statistical difference in susceptibility to yellow fever. The explanation I’ve read that seems more plausible is simply that Africans were more likely to have acquired immunity to the disease due to having contracted more mild forms of it as children in areas where it was endemic. > [@davidm](#): > > I was taught that cowpox was used as a vaccine after they realized that milkmaids (who worked around cows and thus were exposed to cowpox) almost never got smallpox. Was variolation something that was done previous to that? [Yes](https://www.nlm.nih.gov/exhibition/smallpox/sp_vaccination.html), but cowpox-vaccination eventually replaced it because it was less risky (there was still a 1-2% risk of death from variolation as opposed to the 30% mortality rate of full-blown smallpox). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626.md?page=20)