# Anti-vaxxers are ignorant scumbags that kill children **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 1, 2016, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626 "2016-09-01T01:59:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2019, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/421 "2019-01-21T21:05:32Z")
The niece that I mentioned several Pages ago has since had another baby, a girl born in October. So now there will be three unvaccinated, homeschooled kids in that household, and they are already talking about having number 4. If anything terrible or fatal happens to any of these kids because of their parents’ decision not to vaccinate, I don’t think I could forgive them. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2019, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/422 "2019-01-21T23:55:15Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > Although when testing a new vaccine it is ethical to withhold it from a part of the study population, provided: > > 1. The group not given the new vaccine is given the standard of care, including possibly a older version of the vaccine > 2. If in the course of the trial it becomes very clear that the new vaccine produces superior results to the current stand of care all patients are moved to the new vaccine. > 3. If it is clear that the new vaccine causes harm, the study is halted. > > And this is what is done with all new vaccines. Every vaccine that has been put on the market has had a trial in which one group got the vaccine and the other group didn’t. But once that vaccine is proven and becomes the standard of care, it is generally unethical to withhold it. Of course. But if the new vaccine doesn’t work, that doesn’t mean that all vaccines don’t work, so the experiment isn’t what the anti-vaxxers are looking for. Similar studies that werern’t unethical have been done, but that isn’t good enough. I was just explaining why you can’t do an experiment removing a proven vaccine from a portion of the population. Hell, measurements in the drop of people getting diseases after the introduction of a vaccine should be good enough. But you can’t fix stupid, I suppose. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2019, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/423 "2019-01-22T00:54:05Z")
[News from South Korea yesterday](http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/nation/2019/01/119_262394.html): > [@](#): > > **Nine measles cases in Gyeonggi areas** Note that South Korea has been declared a “measles free” area way back in 2014. Now about 7,000 people in the area around the national capital need to be monitored/mentored to ensure it doesn’t take off again. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2019, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/424 "2019-01-24T16:23:11Z")
[https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/health-news/emergency-declared-over-measles-in-anti-vax-hotspot/ar-BBSEpAP?li=BBnb7Kz](https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/health-news/emergency-declared-over-measles-in-anti-vax-hotspot/ar-BBSEpAP?li=BBnb7Kz) Emergency declared over measles in anti-vax hotspot > [@](#): > > A public health emergency has been declared in Clark County, Washington, as a result of an ongoing measles outbreak. According to the latest update from the county’s Department of Health, 23 cases of measles have been confirmed and health officials are investigating two more suspected cases. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2019, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/425 "2019-01-24T16:37:15Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > [MSN](https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/health-news/emergency-declared-over-measles-in-anti-vax-hotspot/ar-BBSEpAP?li=BBnb7Kz) > > Emergency declared over measles in anti-vax hotspot For those who are looking for studies on the efficacy of vaccinations, doesn’t this sort of thing count? It would be entirely unethical for the medical community to withhold vaccines from children to study how effective they are, and, well, IMHO, it is unethical for a parent to withhold vaccines from their children as well, but that’s a choice that they are allowed to make. So, with the parents volunteering to put their children’s (and the children of others in the community who may be immunocompromised) safety at stake, is is ethical to take some learnings from that? Throw in a study that shows no down tick in autism or whatever the claim of the day is in the unvaccinated children, shouldn’t that put this whole thing to bed? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2019, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/426 "2019-01-24T16:42:42Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > [MSN](https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/health-news/emergency-declared-over-measles-in-anti-vax-hotspot/ar-BBSEpAP?li=BBnb7Kz) > > Emergency declared over measles in anti-vax hotspot There’s the study **larryh1012** was screaming for. Reduce vaccinations, measles outbreak. Vaccination proven to work. ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2019, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/427 "2019-01-24T18:23:50Z")
I have no idea if this is true, but… [Common rotovirus vaccine may be preventing type one diabetes](https://www.newscientist.com/article/2191418-common-vaccine-may-protect-children-from-developing-type-1-diabetes/). But, of course, it causes autism, so pick your poison. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2019, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/428 "2019-01-24T18:28:41Z")
This hasn’t been a very good week for antivaxers. Israel’s Health Ministry [is calling out (and possibly sanctioning)](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-israel-s-health-ministry-mulls-sanctions-for-anti-vaccine-doctors-1.6854370) antivax doctors amid a sizable measles outbreak. Meantime, the World Health Organization has listed “vaccine hesitancy” as one of its [ten global health threats for 2019](https://www.who.int/emergencies/ten-threats-to-global-health-in-2019). [Squeals of anguish](https://respectfulinsolence.com/2019/01/24/david-brownstein-versus-nyt-vaccines/) from antivax-land are being heard. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2019, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/429 "2019-01-24T18:43:31Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > For those who are looking for studies on the efficacy of vaccinations, doesn’t this sort of thing count? > > It would be entirely unethical for the medical community to withhold vaccines from children to study how effective they are, and, well, IMHO, it is unethical for a parent to withhold vaccines from their children as well, but that’s a choice that they are allowed to make. > > So, with the parents volunteering to put their children’s (and the children of others in the community who may be immunocompromised) safety at stake, is is ethical to take some learnings from that? > > Throw in a study that shows no down tick in autism or whatever the claim of the day is in the unvaccinated children, shouldn’t that put this whole thing to bed? Unfortunately you are talking about a state where homeopaths can legally be called “Doctors”. The anti-science movement on both the left and the right side of the political spectrum is fighting. Well they call them “naturopaths” but the schools they have to go to require homeopathy to get around the legal issues and it is still woo. > **[Doctor of Naturopathic Medicine | Bastyr University](https://bastyr.edu/academics/naturopathic-medicine/doctoral/naturopathic-doctorate)** > > Become a naturopathic doctor by earning your doctorate in naturopathic medicine at Bastyr University, an accredited naturopathic medical school. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2019, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/430 "2019-01-24T21:34:28Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Unfortunately you are talking about a state where homeopaths can legally be called “Doctors”. > > The anti-science movement on both the left and the right side of the political spectrum is fighting. Well they call them “naturopaths” but the schools they have to go to require homeopathy to get around the legal issues and it is still woo. > [Doctor of Naturopathic Medicine | Bastyr University](https://bastyr.edu/academics/naturopathic-medicine/doctoral/naturopathic-doctorate) Natural remedies can be fine for small household injuries or illnesses. Sure, it may not work, but it might, and probably won’t make things worse. Some of the stuff that they will recommend actually is just good general health advice, for weight loss or insomnia or even headaches. Bigger stuff, you should see a doctor who actually studied medicine. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2019, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/431 "2019-01-25T00:55:36Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Natural remedies can be fine for small household injuries or illnesses. Sure, it may not work, but it might, and probably won’t make things worse. > > Some of the stuff that they will recommend actually is just good general health advice, for weight loss or insomnia or even headaches. > > Bigger stuff, you should see a doctor who actually studied medicine. According to the state these people did “study medicine”. > **[Naturopathic Physician](https://doh.wa.gov/licenses-permits-and-certificates/professions-new-renew-or-update/naturopathic-physician)** > > Related links Licensing information - Applications and forms, apply online, fee information and licensing requirements The fun of the 1938 Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act including the Homœopathic Pharmacopœia of the United States. The states sponsored legitimacy has been a big part in these parent’s believing the anti-vax movement around here. They are required to study homeopathy to gain access to the loophole about requiring evidence. These pseudomedicine pushers have a lot more credibility because the state calls them Doctors. ---
**Author:** ![needscoffee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/needscoffee/32/1076_2.png) [@needscoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/needscoffee)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2019, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/432 "2019-01-25T01:25:55Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > \ > They are required to study homeopathy to gain access to the loophole about requiring evidence. What do you mean by this? ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2019, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/433 "2019-01-25T02:26:28Z")
> [@needscoffee](#): > > What do you mean by this? Every degree at Bastyr has graduation reqirments that require you to take Homeopathy classes, because it is through the exception provided by Homeopathy that they are allowed to “practice medicine” that has either never been proven or has been proven false. [https://bastyr.edu/sites/default/files/2018-19%20ND.pdf](https://bastyr.edu/sites/default/files/2018-19%20ND.pdf) This is because of the exception I noted above. ---
**Author:** ![needscoffee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/needscoffee/32/1076_2.png) [@needscoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/needscoffee)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2019, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/434 "2019-01-25T03:28:44Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Every degree at Bastyr has graduation reqirments that require you to take Homeopathy classes, because it is through the exception provided by Homeopathy that they are allowed to “practice medicine” that has either never been proven or has been proven false. > > [https://bastyr.edu/sites/default/files/2018-19%20ND.pdf](https://bastyr.edu/sites/default/files/2018-19%20ND.pdf) > > This is because of the exception I noted above. Sorry for being dense, but what exception for homeopathy allows them to practice medicine that hasn’t been proven or has been proven false? Was it a ways back in the thread? ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2019, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/435 "2019-01-25T04:16:00Z")
> [@needscoffee](#): > > Sorry for being dense, but what exception for homeopathy allows them to practice medicine that hasn’t been proven or has been proven false? Was it a ways back in the thread? It was in the post you originally quoted “the 1938 Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act including the Homœopathic Pharmacopœia” [A medicinal preparation of biological (animal or botanical), mineral, or synthetic origin which meets the “Criteria for Eligibility of Drugs for Inclusion in the Homeopathic Pharmacopoeia of the United States,” is designated an “Official Homeopathic Drug” after inclusion in the Homeopathic Pharmacopoeia.](http://www.hpus.com/what-is-the-hpus.php) ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2019, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/436 "2019-01-25T15:03:44Z")
> [@needscoffee](#): > > Sorry for being dense, but what exception for homeopathy allows them to practice medicine that hasn’t been proven or has been proven false? Was it a ways back in the thread? If you are a homeopath, the less you know about medicine, the better a doctor you will be. :rolleyes: But in all seriousness, WHAT THE FUCK?!? That’s the stupidest loophole I’ve ever seen. If I believe in UFOs, can I be a pilot without training? If I believe in bigfoot, I can be a vet without school? If I believe in ghosts, can I become a lawyer without passing the bar exam? Holy fuck that is stupid, it hurts and burns witht he stpuid. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2019, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/437 "2019-01-25T21:48:12Z")
Especially when you realize what _provings_ are in homeopathy While not an unbiased source this avoids the fancy language homeopaths use to make it sound less absurd. [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Proving\_(homeopathy)](https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Proving_(homeopathy)) > [@](#): > > A proving records the experiences of the “provers”, usually a dozen or so people who consume the remedy over a period of time. Their thoughts, feelings, dreams and habits are then recorded in what is often termed the “Materia Medica” (from the Latin meaning “collected body of knowledge”) and analysed. An example from the homeopathic proving of positronium is outlined below: > > A sense of solidity. > 01P 01 17.00 NS > > I moved my neck in a circle, it felt thick and as if my head was the same size - like a turtle. > 01P 01 17.00 NS > > Speech feels slow and deliberate, and very exact in a quiet and weighty way. > 02P 01 20.40 NS > > Mood heavy and drained. > 02P 34 22.00 NS > > Feeling OK till supper. After supper a tremendous feeling of exhaustion and heaviness. Legs feel like they’re buckling under me. I can hardly walk. Head feels slow and heavy. Food in my digestive tract feels like a stone. Can hardly think, eyes falling. Can’t feel anything - too exhausted to even drag myself along. > 02P 34 XX.XX NS > > I’ve put on weight as I’ve been eating crap. > 04P 99 XX.XX NS The “_science_” behind homeopaths and naturopaths is absurd. But their false beliefs in how the immune system works is used by many anti-vaxers. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2019, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/438 "2019-01-25T22:37:07Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Especially when you realize what _provings_ are in homeopathy > > While not an unbiased source this avoids the fancy language homeopaths use to make it sound less absurd. > > [Proving (homeopathy) - RationalWiki](https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Proving_(homeopathy)) > > The “_science_” behind homeopaths and naturopaths is absurd. But their false beliefs in how the immune system works is used by many anti-vaxers. Also avoids properly used language: > [@](#): > > as if my head **was** the same size **Were** , damnit, the subjunctive case isn’t that difficult. :smack: Also, logic: > [@](#): > > I’ve put on weight as I’ve been eating crap. A homeopath dietician would tell you not to eat less crap, because that would actually cause you to gain more weight. So, we convince them that it is the tiny amounts of antigens and the small amounts of liquid that are the problem, and that everything will be solved if they take more vaccines. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2019, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/439 "2019-01-25T23:48:59Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > A homeopath dietician would tell you not to eat less crap, because that would actually cause you to gain more weight. Homeopathetics are so smart because they only use microscopic amount of their brain cells. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2019, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/440 "2019-01-26T00:26:32Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > The “_science_” behind homeopaths and naturopaths is absurd. But their false beliefs in how the immune system works is used by many anti-vaxers. Homeopaths also promote homeopathic “vaccines”, made by diluting pus or other infectious material until it is essentially just water\* and then “immunizing” people with it. \*"Homeopathic nosodes, which are just as useless as all other homeopathic potions, are offered as a substitute for vaccines. This way you not only waste money on a worthless health scam, you also forgo safe and effective medicine – a nice double whammy. Nosodes are prepared by taking body fluid from a diseased person or animal and then diluting it so that you have – water. This water is then given to prevent the disease that the person or animal from which the fluid was taken had. In addition to giving fake medicine instead of effective medicine to prevent a serious and communicable disease, there is some risk to the preparation process itself. Homeopaths are making nosodes of HIV, ebola, Hepatitis, and other serious infectious diseases. That’s right – their answer to the HIV epidemic in Africa, or to ebola outbreaks, is to give their fake medicine."\* > **[Homeopathic Nosodes - NeuroLogica Blog](https://theness.com/neurologicablog/homeopathic-nosodes/)** > > Homeopathy is bunk. Most people I encounter who disagree with this statement do not actually know what homeopathy is. They think it is some kind of herbalism or natural medicine. No - it is a prescientific superstition-based system of magic potions.... Recently there was publicity about a Canadian homeopath who gave a child a diluted product made from saliva of a rabid dog, to treat the child’s behavioral problems (he reportedly was hiding under a table and growling at other children). This makes sense, if you’re insane. [http://healthline.com/health-news/can-you-treat-rabies-symptoms-with-rabies](http://healthline.com/health-news/can-you-treat-rabies-symptoms-with-rabies) \*at least, we hope that’s the case. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626.md?page=23)